Shot Opportunity - What is that exactly?

Even in good outfits thing can change, PH'S can get sick,hurt or what ever.
 
@James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com , keep trying to push the outfitter to his lowest price, soon everyone will end up hunting on little canned camps in SA. Your example of the outfitter making the lion's share is nonsense, 25k for package with refund of 4k if leopard not taken, unless you have direct access to his accounting books you can't call it. All countries are different, eg. do you know what the leopard govt license fee is to the govt? community fee to the local area etc. Add all these factors and see how much the lion's share becomes. Would it have been better to advertise the hunt for 29k and refund 8k?
 
It sounds a bit fishy at least. Having run my own outfitting/guiding operation for years I always felt as though as long as I gave the client a good opportunity to take the game I'd done my job but it was always up to them to decide to shoot or not shoot and of course their duty to make a good shot when they did.

When it comes to the wording here it's just too vague. Who decides if it was a good opportunity on a trophy animal and judged by what standard? Unless you're looking down his rifle you can't see the same thing the hunter sees when he's doing so.

I always had a policy that to book a hunt they paid half of the basic fees up front and the balance on arrival. If there were to be any trophy fees added they were due when the animal was at the processing shed, or we'd confirmed a poor hit and a lost animal.

I understand why many of you include the trophy fees up front since your focus is on big game whereas with most of my hunters the focus was on birds and any big game opportunities generally were spur of the moment.

If I were the prospective customer the language here would bother me.

"$4000 refund if no opportunity at trophy leopard"

I simply could not see my way to paying the money up front with those terms.
 
Agree 100 % with you Simon, all expenses that are connected to an outfitter business with taxes and licenses, community development, anti poaching, wedges, road and water developing only to mention a few... so the price to keeping the camp running during a few hunting days with food and accommodation is not that hilarious, but put all thous yearly costs together, so please understand James that the profit in this business is not that fantastic as a outfitter, if we make the same as the agent in the end we are happy, but we take all the risk and putting in all the cash to make it running !
 
@WildRose , I agree with you 50% day rate on confirm booking, balance payable for day rate when safari starts, trophy fee at end of safari, I think what most mean by refund, is actually amount to be deducted off the final bill.

Back to @BRICKBURN question, if he hasn't taken a shot, I won't bill him. The sour taste the client is going to leave with, won't be worth it!
 
Certainly the contract language as originally presented by Brickburn would need to be clarified. I think this issue is more of a concern when the Client (hunter) and the Outfitter/ PH don't know each other. Both parties are entitled to their own realistic expectations. These need to be fully discussed and understood by both parties PRIOR to the hunt. From my limited experience it seems that Outfitters/PHs will bend over backwards to satisfy a client. Repeat business and or recommendations is the name of the game. Neither will happen if a client feels that "he" has been cheated.
 
In the end all of this is going to come down to trust and screening the (Agent) Outfit, PH and the hunt long before you ever send any money.
I am asking more from an educational perspective to ensure that hunters understand.

James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com said:
............

I would rather the outfitter cover his cost of doing business with a modest profit but make the lions share of it through the trophy fee.
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Funny you say Lions. This is also something I have seen creeping shift in to offers. More so, Zimbabwe than other places. It is also on more expensive hunts where day rates are over $1200 day.

The nightmare is where the booking has occurred and the hunter "walks around" for 21 days and sees very little.
(There are not guarantees in hunting, but at least seeing tracks of your quarry would be nice) That is an extreme scenario, but it has occurred.


Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
..............

Back to @BRICKBURN question, if he hasn't taken a shot, I won't bill him. The sour taste the client is going to leave with, won't be worth it!
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Your Leopard offer states just that Simon. No animal no trophy fee. Straight up simple.

It's that other wording creeping in to offers that perked my head up.
 
@Traditional Mozambique Safaris @Mbizi Safaris I'm not directing this towards you, you have good reputations and it sound like you care about your clients, but that's not the case with all outfitters. The trend lately on many of the leopard hunts lately is to have an abnormally high daily rate. Higher than on most of the other species in the same area even more so than other DG in the area. The fact we are hunting leopard doesn't make the cost of fuel, food, water and taxes go up? My point here is that some outfitters are lining their pockets conducting unsuccessful hunts. I call them ghost hunts, areas where there are no animals or the chances of getting one are very slim. They charge a high daily rate and make their money on that end.

I'm not trying to get anyone to drop their prices, I want to sell fairly priced hunts at a reasonable cost and have clients go home happy and feel like they were treated well even if they don't get their trophy. Making sure we have expectations managed and we agree on trophy fees / refund policy is the way to make sure everyone is happy at the end of the day.
 
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Are the costs the same for leopard? I mean, baiting and checking traps and such is a bit more work, is it not? Now, I don't see where that needs to be sky high in the markup but I can understand that DG hunts are more expensive than PG hunts for the daily rate and that a leopard hunt is not going to be cheaper for the outfitter than a buffalo hunt.

That said, if I walked around for 21 days and didn't even see the animal I was hunting, I would be a bit angry. I can understand not getting a shot. Hard to understand not even getting a glimpse.

"Now eventually you do plan to have dinosaurs on your, on your dinosaur tour, right?"
 
How about the client that misses... clearly blows the shot and goes home empty handed? In this senerio I assume he would still pay the "trophy" fee. I believe it would be perfectly understandable in a leopard hunting scenario where the outfitter has possibly spent weeks pre-baiting and did everything he could including getting the client a clear "opportunity" at a mature cat.
That said... I also can see other senerios where the "rule of opportunity" could have the potential of real heartburn for everyone when ultimately we all know it's "hunting" and not "killing".
Good thread, thanks for posting it Brick.
 
@Mekaniks , I nearly brought up the missed shot on leopard, but that alone needs it's own thread. This missed shot scenario started creeping in a few years ago across the board on hunts.
 
Many businesses and employees make most of their profit and wages on results, I like the the idea of paying lower day fees and higher trophy fees, the extra incentive could not be bad from a consumer's point of view. Vehicles can break down, PH'S get sick and a host of other things that could go wrong that the client should not have to pay for.
 
Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
@Mekaniks , I nearly brought up the missed shot on leopard, but that alone needs it's own thread. This missed shot scenario started creeping in a few years ago across the board on hunts.
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Missed shots may be one of the reasons this verbiage has been created.

Leopard are not Impala. They do not come in herds of hundreds.
There are very few of these animals you are allowed to take legally in most hunting areas. Missing the ONE that comes in after 14 days of hunting and 20 days of baiting is likely going to be it.

:A Stirring:
So, if the hunter who missed pays the trophy fee for the missed shot, can the hunter then demand the Outfitter not resell the hunt this year? (not bloody likely going to fly anywhere I know)

If the Outfitter resells the hunt and the next guy kills the cat and pays the trophy fee does the first guy get a trophy fee refund?

Looks like the slippery slope to "Ghost hunting". (as James noted)
 
One very important thing that I have not read in this thread, though it is probably implied --- get the answer to any contractual questions you have in writing in the contract. I wouldn't even accept a chain of emails.

Define shot opportunity

Define alcoholic drinks

etc
 
@curtism1234 I was brought up in a world where a man's hand shake was good enough, ethics counted. If you need more than that, you not a client I want to hunt with, alcohol??? I have carried enough clients to their beds, did I think bad about them, not one bit, often the moment in Africa becomes too big. Alcohol is alcohol, no definition needed. I have never in over 20 years of hunting ever charged a client for spirits, even though it is stated in the prices, a 100$ or two is not going to kill me.
 
Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
............
I was brought up in a world where a man's hand shake was good enough, ethics counted. ................I have never in over 20 years of hunting ever charged a client for spirits, even though it is stated in the prices, a 100$ or two is not going to kill me.
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That is something that will set you apart.
 
Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
@curtism1234 I was brought up in a world where a man's hand shake was good enough, ethics counted. If you need more than that, you not a client I want to hunt with, alcohol??? I have carried enough clients to their beds, did I think bad about them, not one bit, often the moment in Africa becomes too big. Alcohol is alcohol, no definition needed. I have never in over 20 years of hunting ever charged a client for spirits, even though it is stated in the prices, a 100$ or two is not going to kill me.
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I was brought up in the same world; I'm still the same person but some others aren't. Now I play it safe with "It's not that I don't trust you, I just don't trust anyone".

I just mentioned alcohol as an example because there's been more than one thread about members being charged at the end of a hunt.

IMO if a hunter wants something in writing, it should be issued with no hesitation. Any hesitation is a red flag.
 
Yes some consider alcohol hard liquor not beer & wine. Getting things in writing is never a bad idea, can save miscommunication s.
 
Email is written, that's the same as hand shake in my book. If you don't trust that...then like I say, I wouldn't want to hunt with you.

@jeff if a person is going to get nitty gritty talking outfitter or client over a max of 100$ wine/beer....I seriously have to laugh.
 
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