.223/5.56x45 ammunition question

It isn't legal to use a .22 in Washington state for big game, so I generally use a 257 or 7mm08, but a friend that hunts in several of the southern states where the deer are not as large uses a .223. For deer he uses the Nosler 64 gr bonded solid base. He has had very good results with it- I'd expect it would work well for at least the smaller hogs. I don't know that I'd want to go against a full grown boar with it.

Ray B said:

It isn't legal to use a .22 in Washington state for big game, so I generally use a 257 or 7mm08, but a friend that hunts in several of the southern states where the deer are not as large uses a .223. For deer he uses the Nosler 64 gr bonded solid base. He has had very good results with it- I'd expect it would work well for at least the smaller hogs. I don't know that I'd want to go against a full grown boar with it.

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It works well. It's a very tough bullet. The gold dot 75gr does more damage, but the 64gr nosler is a good round, too. Just not as disruptive. They penetrate similarly. I sent a box out for testing and that was the impression I was given by the shooter.

Jwg223 said:

I am looking for experiences using .223 or 5.56 ammunition. Specifically, I plan to use it for hogs, southern US deer, and vermin. Most ammunition studies in this caliber that I have seen are directed toward antipersonnel/LE/.mil use, and not game animals. Projectiles I am considering are 75gr gold dot, 55gr gmx, and similar. I would be very interested in how these have worked in the real world and on what size game. I am interested in things like game reaction, expansion and how rapidly it happened, wound tract damage, weight and shape retention, etc.

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60 gr Nosler partitions work well on about everything in my experience. Any bullets heavier than 64 gr need a differnt twist rate for optimum accuracy in my experience. I shoot a Colt sporter and it doesn't like the heavy for caliber stuff.

Look for the twist rate of your rifle. The partitions are a great round. I know of a lot of deer being culled with just the 55grn vmax but that's back east.

Jwg223 said:

This is why I have standardized on the 75gr Gold Dot. That 69gr was probably a SMK, and they only penetrate 3-6" after striking autoglass, and retain VERY LITTLE WEIGHT. The 75gr Gold Dot penetrates over the FBI 12" minimum after striking AG, and retains significant amount of weight. Much better round. M193/M855/MK262 are terrible choices where autoglass is concerned.

Lest you think this is "just a .22 thing", click on the tab at the bottom titled "Safety Glass" for both of these links...

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=150
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/rifle/details.aspx?id=689

Now compare it to the ammo I am using in .223, (same tab):
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24475

It's a projectile thing...not a caliber thing, and as you can see, the 75gr .223 Gold Dot outperforms the 165gr .308 round in both cases. Not to say that the .308 DOESN'T come in an effective loading obviously, but simply to underscore that even a .308 can fail where the .223 won't, if you select ammo as such. Here is the bonded loading in .308:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24458

Neat how it doesn't penetrate any more, really, than the .223, huh? (does have more mass though, but a shot to the head with either would work...)

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Hi again Jwg223,

Great post, it is encouraging to learn that there is a proper hunting bullet available for the .223 these days.

I always enjoy learning how other hunters do things (There will plenty of time to stop learning after I croak).

The .223 cartridge, when charged with your 75 grain "Gold Dot" projectiles obviously works well for your deer hunting, and according to the testing through glass, it also works well for that.

However, myself having no complaints with the several larger calibers that, I have used for such size game animals, here in The USA, and also in Africa, the .223 is not on my "Christmas List" these days.

This is not to mention, having seen more than one or two gunshot wounds in human beings, (some included after first penetrating through automobile glass, car doors, trunks, passenger seats, firewalls, and etc.)

For my money, in hunting anything larger than perhaps coyote as one example, and for potentially defending Ruby Ridge Compound against an angry mob of Bolshevik Zombies, I will always prefer a bit more bullet weight than this cartridge uses (Bolshevik Zombies are of course the worst kind of zombies, because they're commonly known to hide behind automobile glass).

That being said, I have no valid argument against yourself and others shooting deer / boar with the .223 cartridge or, potentially staving off bad guys with it, as I am all for freedom of choice.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo, I respect your stance on it.

For me, the choice of 5.56 came down to platform. I can use a 6.2# rifle that meets my requirements. The optic and suppressors I have are the same weight in .30 and 5.56. So that's a wash. However, about 7.5-8.2# is about the lightest 7.62x51 platform I can utilize. I went 5.56 and make up for it, so to speak, with Gucci designer projectiles.

I have both a Ruger American Ranch Rifle in 5.56 and a custom AR-15 with a 16" BHW barrel with a Wylde chamber. Both are 1:8 twist with the BHW barrel having polygonal rifling. I use the Nosler 64gr bonded SP handloaded with Varget to give me just shy of 2,900fps out of the AR and just over 2,800fps out of the Ranch Rifle. Both rifles will put five rounds of my handload into less than one inch @ 100 yards IF I do my part.

I have killed a bobcat, a number of coyotes, hogs and deer, plus two Javelina with this combination at ranges from 25' to just over 200 yards. Only two of those animals required a second shot the first was on a ~100lb hog in high grass that I hit too high, broke it's spine, and I put a second round into it's head to finish it. The second was on a ~200lb hog that dropped at the first shot but was not dead quick enough for me, so I shot it through the head.

I have not recovered any of the bullets and have had no animal travel more than fifty yards before collapsing. That one was a ~75lb hog @ ~125 yards that I hit towards the back of the lungs, and it ran straight in the direction it was headed when I shot it until it just tipped over.

A deer I recently shot with the Ranch Rifle with the 64gr bonded bullet died immediately after I hit it with a high shoulder shot which broke both shoulder blades, clipped the spine and, as far as I know is still traveling.
Typical entrance wound is a caliber sized hole (no surprise), significant internal organ damage, and a ~1" exit hole. The deer I shot through the shoulder blades left a slightly larger exit wound and significant secondary missiles through the lungs and one into the heart from bone fragments.

I do have a number of larger caliber rifles, all the way up to .458WM, but none of them ride every day on my tractor like the .223/5.56 ones do.

As with any bullet from any firearm used on animals, the three rules are; placement, placement, and placement.

Ed

!

APDDSN0864 said:

I have both a Ruger American Ranch Rifle in 5.56 and a custom AR-15 with a 16" BHW barrel with a Wylde chamber. Both are 1:8 twist with the BHW barrel having polygonal rifling. I use the Nosler 64gr bonded SP handloaded with Varget to give me just shy of 2,900fps out of the AR and just over 2,800fps out of the Ranch Rifle. Both rifles will put five rounds of my handload into less than one inch @ 100 yards IF I do my part.

I have killed a bobcat, a number of coyotes, hogs and deer, plus two Javelina with this combination at ranges from 25' to just over 200 yards. Only two of those animals required a second shot the first was on a ~100lb hog in high grass that I hit too high, broke it's spine, and I put a second round into it's head to finish it. The second was on a ~200lb hog that dropped at the first shot but was not dead quick enough for me, so I shot it through the head.

I have not recovered any of the bullets and have had no animal travel more than fifty yards before collapsing. That one was a ~75lb hog @ ~125 yards that I hit towards the back of the lungs, and it ran straight in the direction it was headed when I shot it until it just tipped over.

A deer I recently shot with the Ranch Rifle with the 64gr bonded bullet died immediately after I hit it with a high shoulder shot which broke both shoulder blades, clipped the spine and, as far as I know is still traveling.
Typical entrance wound is a caliber sized hole (no surprise), significant internal organ damage, and a ~1" exit hole. The deer I shot through the shoulder blades left a slightly larger exit wound and significant secondary missiles through the lungs and one into the heart from bone fragments.

I do have a number of larger caliber rifles, all the way up to .458WM, but none of them ride every day on my tractor like the .223/5.56 ones do.

As with any bullet from any firearm used on animals, the three rules are; placement, placement, and placement.

Ed

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Knife Boy, is that you ?

Yours truly,
DSN0631

Velo Dog said:

Knife Boy, is that you ?

Yours truly,
DSN0631

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The one and the same, Pablo.

APDDSN0864 said:

The one and the same, Pablo.

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Eduardo,

Well, in spite of the fact that your two main working rifles are chambered in .223, I am glad you joined up here.
(Perhaps you can ask Santa to bring you a 6.5x55 for Christmas).
Aside from the fact that they let a confused old geezer like me participate, this is the very best forum in the world.
Wish I could get down to your rancho there, one of these days, it looks real fine.
Not able to go yet but one day.

Salud,
Pablo.

Velo Dog said:

Eduardo,

Well, in spite of the fact that your two main working rifles are chambered in .223, I am glad you joined up here.
(Perhaps you can ask Santa to bring you a 6.5x55 for Christmas).
Aside from the fact that they let a confused old geezer like me participate, this is the very best forum in the world.
Wish I could get down to your rancho there, one of these days, it looks real fine.
Not able to go yet but one day.

Salud,
Pablo.

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Pablo, I shifted to the .223/5.56 rifles as they allowed me to see my hits and a quicker second if needed. As the biggest critter on my place averages under 200lb, they work really well.
When I'm roaming around my buddy's Deep South Texas ranch I'm just as likely to have my Sharps or my .458WM with my .30-06 somewhere close by as back up in case one of his guests needs to follow up on a wounded critter.
The AR and my 1911 go with me 24/7 when I'm just dinking around his place. Lots of dangerous game roaming around there.

Give my best to your lovely bride.

Ed

APDDSN0864 said:

Pablo, I shifted to the .223/5.56 rifles as they allowed me to see my hits and a quicker second if needed. As the biggest critter on my place averages under 200lb, they work really well.
When I'm roaming around my buddy's Deep South Texas ranch I'm just as likely to have my Sharps or my .458WM with my .30-06 somewhere close by as back up in case one of his guests needs to follow up on a wounded critter.
The AR and my 1911 go with me 24/7 when I'm just dinking around his place. Lots of dangerous game roaming around there.

Give my best to your lovely bride.

Ed

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Ed,

I Totally understand.
Have you tried the 75 grain Gold Dot that Jwg223 described earler?
Although it sounds like the load you've been using has worked quite well.
Yup, I will give your regards to Wonder Woman.
And, please give our regards to yours as well.

Cheerio,
Paul.

I just figured I'd share my hunting story from this year.

My girlfriend (She's sharp and learns extremely rapidly, as in, she had never shot anything but a .22 before, and I had her making accurate and rapid hits on a 25 yard target using my pump gun and 12ga slugs in about 3 hours of shooting time, running and controlling the gun. Impressive for a 118# 5'3" beastie!) accompanied me on her first deer hunt ever, this thanksgiving. We made it to the deer stand at about 0545, and there I had to sit, listening to her whisper her rated-X thoughts about the Wiggy's fishnet base-layers I'd bought us, (which, honestly at that point, I was hoping noone would see after listening to her go on and on about it). Anyway, goth stripper baselayers or not, a tiny girl gets cold, and at about 0640, she was not a happy camper.

"Will it scare all the deer if I just leave"?
"Yes".
"We'll go once the sun is up, right?"
"At around 0900"
"WHAT!?"
"Fine, sooner."

And so it continued, until she burrowed down into her jacket and sat there wishing she wasn't sitting there. She's a trooper though, so complaints didn't continue, and she kept her senses alert. She was who actually heard the buck at around 0650. I personally was going to shoot any deer I saw (legal) at this point, as an unhappy girlfriend on a hunting trip is likely to be an absent girlfriend on the next hunting trip. She excitedly motioned to me saying over and over "Deer!Deer!Deer!" as I un-slung my M4 and re-positioned in the stand. I was using a suppressor for the sake of all the ears involved.

The buck appeared to be younger, but had a decent rack, and was about 40 yards distant, headed across our FOV at an angle taking him closer to us. I began tracking him and would have fired except tree after tree popped into my crosshairs, and I feared hitting one. I set up in a firing lane and waited for him to cross, which he did, 23 yards from us, full broadside, when I fired. The 70gr GMX drove through both of his lungs, he hunched, and bounded off!

Now, this was when I learned fully that my girlfriend had never seen a real animal shot before. She turned to me with a look of abject horror on her face and asked "DID YOU GET HIM!? OUR DEER IS GETTING AWAY! SHOOT HIM!!!!" as I tried to calm her and convince her that the killing had been done, the dying just needed to figure it out. Lucky for both of us, I think, he piled up 68 yards out from where he was hit. His white underbelly toward us, where I directed her attention. Then the deer had to flail a bit. That caused her some disquiet, but I assured her dead was dead. Then came the task of keeping her in the stand for a bit until I was sure he expired. I think I managed about 2 minutes, during which I tried to condense a trauma injury lecture including vasoconstriction, fight or flight, perfusion pressure, etc. into 2 or 3 sentences while she looked on at our deer like a cat eyeing a sleeping bird. Not recommended, but I also knew where the bullet had gone, and so it was what it was. We went and collected our deer Now, my girlfriend doesn't see dead bodies and blood and bones and whatnot at work all the time like I do, she sells magazines/books for Scholastic (If you have kids, you know what I'm talking about). Anyway, to my great joy, she actually helped with the dressing. She's looking forward to hunting HER first deer next year, and field dressing him/her, herself (with help)! Overall, a great experience for me, and the new hunter!

Entrance (inside of ribcage)

Exit (inside of ribcage):