School me on .375, velocity, and Dangerous Game

Felt recoil is so dependent on stock design and material. I had a CZ 550 in 375 H&H that weighed 9 lbs without scope, sling or ammo and the recoil was really not bad at all and it was the first rifle I owned larger than a 270 Win. A really nice rifle that grew up to be my 500 Jeffery. I then bought a Remington XCR II in 375 H&H for a brown bear hunt because I wanted stainless/coated. It weighs 7.25 lbs with a Leupold 2-7x Firedot scope on it. I was really nervous about shooting it but that stock, as ugly as it is, just soaks up recoil. It has less felt recoil than my CZ in 375 H&H did. I wish they made one for my 500 Jeffery! It's ugly, but it's accurate, light and doesn't kick much ...

I know a couple guys who have mis-marked their rifles to match their brass headstamps. Apparently the import inspection didn't care to note the bullets weren't the right diameter, but the rifle matched the ammo... Box checked... Whether the label is wrong on the brass or the rifle too, as long as you keep track and are sure to re-mark it correctly before selling, it seems as thought it could work.

I know of others who bought a small set of punches and restamped the brass to match the rifle (416 Taylor). Nothing fancy and lots of work, but he slept better knowing that they were covered just in case...

He used a copper punch mounted in a vice and placed the case over it. The trick was to work out how hard (softly) to strike the fine punch. He just punched right over the old calibre marking.

In the end they said customers was more interested in the rifle and hardly paid any attention to the ammo. All the same, they were still happy to have had that extra bit of insurance.

Maybe.. Curious about the round though. What kind of velocity does one expect from this round, being it has considerable less capacity than the H&H? You can drive a 300 gr bullet to over 2600 fps in the H&H. Is the WSM meant primarily for 270 gr or less bullets?

My WSM will be mainly used with big bullets / subsonic velocities for deer but I also expect 2800fps with 235gn projectiles and maybe 2300 2400fps with the big ones but its a speculative at the moment. really no need for it for deer but I wish to hunt with subsonic loads and there is no substitute for bullet weight when doing this.

A friend of mine went to Africa with a 375/8mmRem Mag. He got there with his ammo but his rifle was held in customs. He had taken his BBC bullets specifically to test them on Cape Buffalo. The PH rented a 375 H&H to him and with minimal reloading equipment he pulled the BBCs and loaded them in H&H cases. He "tested" 3 or 4 bullets on Buffs. All shots were maximum range 100 yards and all obtained the desired results- so evidently there was no advantage to the wildcat.

That's one of the things I like about the 375 Weatherby. You can shoot 375 H&H ammo with a minor loss of velocity (ours loves the Remington Premier 375 H&H ammo loaded with 300g A-Frames), you can load the same bullet to 2800 fps if you feel like it or the new 350g Woodleigh HD bullets to 2550 fps using 375 Weatherby brass.

colorado said:

That's one of the things I like about the 375 Weatherby. You can shoot 375 H&H ammo with a minor loss of velocity (ours loves the Remington Premier 375 H&H ammo loaded with 300g A-Frames), you can load the same bullet to 2800 fps if you feel like it or the new 350g Woodleigh HD bullets to 2550 fps using 375 Weatherby brass.

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I'm +1 with you here Colorado,

Wildcat cartridges do not interest me.
However, if I was interested in them, I definitely would want my rifle to be chambered for one that can safely use standard factory cartridges as well.
Your .375 Weatherby is a versatile one for that reason.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog said:

Regarding your velocity question, my favorite load in .375 is the Hornady 300 grain round nose at 2400 fps (about 150 fps slower than factory claimed ballistics).

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Goodness me Velo....and I thought you were the archtypical Alaskan hardass....

Pondoro said:

Goodness me Velo....and I thought you were the archtypical Alaskan hardass....

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Hi Pondoro,

You perhaps have me confused with my "hot rod bretherine" from the "lower 48 states" - also known as: "invaders from outer states" up here in the frozen north.
There is a bumper sticker here: "Welcome To Alaska, Now Go Home".
And, I might ad to that: "And Take Your Blown-Out / Over-Bore / Hyper-Velocity Cartridges With You", heh, heh.

That being said, I readily confess to favoring high velocity when planning to hunt "thin skinned game" in the wide open places.
For instance I have owned and used high velocity rifles including the .22-250, .220 Swift, .243 Winchester, .244 Remington, .257 Roberts, .25-06, .270 Winchester, 7mm Magnum and .300 H&H Magnum, for everything from rodents/vermin to Caribou.
On the other hand, the .375 is versatile enough to use for shots out to about 400 meters/yards, provided one chooses his projectile / load carefully.
However, "my" 300 gr, 2400 feet per sec load, that I like so much, is not easy to hit well with, more than about 300 yds/meters maximum, for my ability any way (and about 250 yds/mtrs maximum, is more reasonable on smaller species).

This load duplicates the classic .375 H&H Flanged, originally developed for lower pressure in double rifles and single shots, back in the "old days".
Incidentally, Dr. Kevin Robertson writes about this exact subject in his excellent book "Africa's Most Dangerous", as it pertains to using it on buffalo.
He writes that if anything, it is possibly more effective on buffalo than the higher velocity of factory standard ammunition, for that super important first shot into your beast.
Such talk no doubt would give Roy Weatherby and P.O. Ackley the hiccups, if they were still with us.
But, I'm very sure Dr. Robertson has shot and seen shot, (many times over) more African buffaloes than both of those two interesting characters combined.

Anyway, I encourage anyone hand-loading for the .375 to try the slightly reduced velocity / 300 grain round nose bullet load.
Recoil is just slightly less than factory standard 300 gr ammunition.
That reduction of about 150 fps is evidently just enough to notice it in the recoil.
It usually produces shockingly fine accuracy as well.
Seems like Hornady is slowing or stopping their line of round nose bullets now but thankfully, Woodleigh is in full production (it's a tougher bullet than the Hornady anyway).
Likewise, I have enjoyed perfect success when using the Nosler Partition 300 gr (semi-spitzer) at 2400 fps on game animals here and in Africa as well.

Sorry for the length of this rant (too much espresso this morning).

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

That's okay VeloDog; it's about what we have come to expect from limp-wristed Starbuckaroos regardless of where they came from. :<)

Velo Dog said:

You perhaps have me confused with my "hot rod bretherine" from the "lower 48 states" - also known as: "invaders from outer states" up here in the frozen north.
There is a bumper sticker here: "Welcome To Alaska, Now Go Home".
And, I might ad to that: "And Take Your Blown-Out / Over-Bore / Hyper-Velocity Cartridges With You", heh, heh.

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Merely teasing you Velo...nothing wrong with reduced loads..

Ray B said:

That's okay VeloDog; it's about what we have come to expect from limp-wristed Starbuckaroos regardless of where they came from. :<)

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I think Starbuck's is a Seattle based company.
And, I promise to begin some wrist exercises straight away.

Pondoro said:

Merely teasing you Velo...nothing wrong with reduced loads..

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Yes, and I welcome it.
People who never receive a bit of light hearted teasing from time to time, are perhaps not the most interesting individuals on earth to begin with.

Where I'm hunting with a .375 Ruger pushing a bullet to the max is a waste of powder and brass life. Black bear and whitetail deer. Not to mention hard on the shoulder.

The reason I use this caliber is I like to hear about "overkill"

Shawn

the issue is to match the impact velocity and the resistance of the animal with the design capabilities of the bullet. The capabilities of the cartridge are secondary in the equation. Starbuckaroos have world acclaim for their expresso consumption- it started in Seattle, but like the plague, encompassed the entire world. :<)

colorado said:

Felt recoil is so dependent on stock design and material. I had a CZ 550 in 375 H&H that weighed 9 lbs without scope, sling or ammo and the recoil was really not bad at all and it was the first rifle I owned larger than a 270 Win. A really nice rifle that grew up to be my 500 Jeffery. I then bought a Remington XCR II in 375 H&H for a brown bear hunt because I wanted stainless/coated. It weighs 7.25 lbs with a Leupold 2-7x Firedot scope on it. I was really nervous about shooting it but that stock, as ugly as it is, just soaks up recoil. It has less felt recoil than my CZ in 375 H&H did. I wish they made one for my 500 Jeffery! It's ugly, but it's accurate, light and doesn't kick much ...

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Colorado I have found exactly the same only my Rem700 is a SPS model. Moved the CZ on. Still have one in 416 Rigby though.

Ray B said:

the issue is to match the impact velocity and the resistance of the animal with the design capabilities of the bullet. The capabilities of the cartridge are secondary in the equation. Starbuckaroos have world acclaim for their expresso consumption- it started in Seattle, but like the plague, encompassed the entire world. :<)

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ok

Much of what we believe about bullets and killing power hearkens back to the days before we learned to wrap guilding metal around lead to control expansion. With pure lead bullets or even early versions of controlled expansion bullets....big and slow was the rule. It's not that big and slow was more deadly, it was all the bullet could take without blowing apart and penetration being compromised. In today's world of premium bonded and mono metal bullets the rules have definitely changed. There's no arguing that a projectile passing through flesh at high velocity has a much bigger primary and secondary wound channel than one at low velocity so if the bullet can handle the velocity, there is no harm and quite likely an advantage to driving it faster. Many hunters have a hard time accepting light for calibre bullets but if properly constructed, they are often a better option.

I am probably the least qualified here to speak on this, but I find it a fascinating discussion.

I have come to believe that surface area is generally more important than speed. The cartridge needs enough speed, and therefore power, to push that larger surface area through the animal. Big bleeding will most certainly = quick death. High velocity may or may not create a shock, but I don't think you can count on it with the same confidence as more blood loss. Also, high velocity will most certainly = more lost meat.

The tougher bullets allow us to flatten the trajectory by using a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. So, for the 375 as asked in the OP, my belief is that the velocity we need is dependant on the range we intend to shoot. The advantage of a high speed monometal 270 gr vs the meandering 350gr is that you have a more versatile cartridge (for plains game) but both will kill your buffalo. The advantage of the 350gr is you may end up with a greater surface area. The speed itself will not change how quickly a large animal dies.

Having said that, I have been told that Buffalo really do not like 200gr monometal at 3000 fps +. So, perhaps there are limits to all theories. I just don't like the recoil when I got up to around 2900 fps with my 200gr bullets.