Next Cecil?

lcq · Aug 18, 2016

First I'm not defending that Asshat only correcting an inaccurate statement you made which is exactly what the press did when Cecil was arrowed. That is how rumors are started, to this day most people still believe the dentist hunted illegally in a game reserve.

Jeffro said:
Sport hunting is a privilege and not a right.

As for the rights and privilege argument it is one I continually hear our enemies make all the time when it comes to guns and one that sends chills up my spine.

Pheroze has pretty much nailed it and it is how most ethical hunters conduct themselves (it is why we call it hunting not killing):

"but, as a hunter, the choice of weapon has nothing to do with "blood-lust", that's not what it is about at all. Not even close. I don't hunt with a spear, but I am can see why people choose different weapons to increase the challenge and the adventure of the pursuit. If it results in an ethical harvesting of the animal I am at a loss to understand why a spear is worse than a spike in the head in an abattoir."

Brick posted a native spear hunt video here somewhere that was beyond brutal and nowhere near as humane as what this guy did. But our enemies turn a blind eye because natives did it instead of old white guys who should, according to them be hunting in grocery stores. If the kill was clean and quick I don't give a damn if he used a sledge hammer. I do take issue with how that Ass Clown was behaving as it paints us all in a very bad light.

firehuntfish · Aug 18, 2016

Jeffro said:
What matters to you is not an argument, and you do not have a God given right to anything (maybe this is one of the significant Canada-USA differences in perspective).

Lol.. I'll say one thing.... You have got some big cojones to make an arrogant statement like that on a hunting forum to anyone. You are correct it is not an argument.... It's instinctual and just plain common sense for any human being to assume the right to utilize the plants, animals, and natural resources on this planet for survival. Who are you or anyone else to deny these resources? Are you telling me that my government is granting me a privilege by allowing me to take a weapon into the field and harvest an animal for the purpose of putting meat on my table? In today's world, it is necessary for a government to manage that right for the purpose of sustainability of the resource because even a God-given right can be abused by some. But, to consider it a revocable privilege? No way...

As time passes, man continues to build walls, fences, and create borders to manage and manipulate these resources. Sometimes for the better but, often not... Still, I respect those fences, borders and laws created in hope to manage sustainably those resources for generations to come to enjoy those same God-given rights that I enjoy. You are correct that it must be perspective, and my perspective is obviously different than yours. But, to make it a USA vs. Canada perspective is in poor taste. Don't go there... I don't speak for all Americans just as you do not speak for all Canadians. I'm only offering my opinion, if you don't agree, that is your God-given right. Best of luck keeping your hunting and fishing "privileges".

lcq · Aug 18, 2016

firehuntfish said:
Lol.. I'll say one thing.... You have got some big cojones to make an arrogant statement like that on a hunting forum to anyone. You are correct it is not an argument.... It's instinctual and just plain common sense for any human being to assume the right to utilize the plants, animals, and natural resources on this planet for survival. Who are you or anyone else to deny these resources? Are you telling me that my government is granting me a privilege by allowing me to take a weapon into the field and harvest an animal for the purpose of putting meat on my table? In today's world, it is necessary for a government to manage that right for the purpose of sustainability of the resource because even a God-given right can be abused by some. But, to consider it a revocable privilege? No way...

As time passes, man continues to build walls, fences, and create borders to manage and manipulate these resources. Sometimes for the better but, often not... Still, I respect those fences, borders and laws created in hope to manage sustainably those resources for generations to come to enjoy those same God-given rights that I enjoy. You are correct that it must be perspective, and my perspective is obviously different than yours. But, to make it a USA vs. Canada perspective is in poor taste. Don't go there... I don't speak for all Americans just as you do not speak for all Canadians. I'm only offering my opinion, if you don't agree, that is your God-given right. Best of luck keeping your hunting and fishing "privileges".

here here sir, your post should be required reading before becoming a member on AH.

LadyKiller · Aug 18, 2016

lcq said:
here here sir, your post should be required reading before becoming a member on AH.

Agree! Thoughtful and well stated.
90% of the meat my family eats is game that we hunt ourselves. I firmly believe that it is my right and choice to provide that for my family.

LadyKiller · Aug 18, 2016

BSO Dave said:
Frankly though, it's a hard sell to those whose idea of an African animal comes from a Disney movie and has long eyelashes, a great personality, and has a lion for a best friend.

I love that analogy. This is the mindset we get from almost every non hunter that we know. If I only had a quarter for every time I heard the question, "how can you shoot a zebra?"

PeteG · Aug 18, 2016

LadyKiller said:
I love that analogy. This is the mindset we get from almost every non hunter that we know. If I only had a quarter for every time I heard the question, "how can you shoot a zebra?"

You'd probably be able to shoot another zebra...

Hank2211 · Aug 18, 2016

firehuntfish said:
Lol.. I'll say one thing.... You have got some big cojones to make an arrogant statement like that on a hunting forum to anyone. You are correct it is not an argument.... It's instinctual and just plain common sense for any human being to assume the right to utilize the plants, animals, and natural resources on this planet for survival. Who are you or anyone else to deny these resources? Are you telling me that my government is granting me a privilege by allowing me to take a weapon into the field and harvest an animal for the purpose of putting meat on my table? In today's world, it is necessary for a government to manage that right for the purpose of sustainability of the resource because even a God-given right can be abused by some. But, to consider it a revocable privilege? No way...

As time passes, man continues to build walls, fences, and create borders to manage and manipulate these resources. Sometimes for the better but, often not... Still, I respect those fences, borders and laws created in hope to manage sustainably those resources for generations to come to enjoy those same God-given rights that I enjoy. You are correct that it must be perspective, and my perspective is obviously different than yours. But, to make it a USA vs. Canada perspective is in poor taste. Don't go there... I don't speak for all Americans just as you do not speak for all Canadians. I'm only offering my opinion, if you don't agree, that is your God-given right. Best of luck keeping your hunting and fishing "privileges".

An interesting post. Lots of food for thought - and for discussion.

I would suggest that there was a time when firehuntfish was absolutely correct in saying "It's just plain common sense . . .". Perhaps that time is not now?

Ask yourself this question: Have you ever posted anything here about meat poachers in Africa?

On more than one thread, I have seen people suggesting that prison or even death is not enough for those who poach for meat (let's leave ivory and rhino out of this for now).

Who gave this God-given right to hunt and fish to North Americans but not to Africans? We have so many ways to feed our families without hunting - each and every one of us, including the poorest - while many Africans don't. Yet we continue to assume that it's not only just but reasonable to ban all Africans from hunting any of the game on their continent without paying what we would pay to do the same. We react with outrage at the use of snares . . . But most Africans cannot legally own a gun.

I would say to firehuntfish that he's right in theory, and I would love to live in a world where his view prevailed. But this world is not that world. In this world, politicians keep their jobs by appealing to the greatest number of voters (we call that democracy). If the greatest number of voters doen't understand what we do, and don't agree with it, then they will take our "God-given" right away from us, and we will become poachers in our own land.

I am from Alberta, and I have no love for our current government, but they were elected, and we the people have given them the right to pass laws. If there is enough outrage about this in Alberta - and make no mistake, the anti's will keep stirring this pot - the law will be changed, and the Minister will have the support of the majority of Albvertans to do that.

Many of you may recall the seal hunt in Eastern Canada. The government of Canada fought long and hard to keep the hunt alive, but over time, the costs of doing so became so great - trade disputes with Europe and others, tourism boycotts, endless bad publicity, endless fundraising opportunities for opponents, etc., that even those who practiced the hunt resigned themselves to its end.

Let's not let that happen to us. But let's not be naive about whether it could or could not happen either. It absolutely could.

edward · Aug 18, 2016

right or wrong,fair or unfair,it could,period.

lcq · Aug 18, 2016

Hank2211 said:
An interesting post. Lots of food for thought - and for discussion.

I would suggest that there was a time when firehuntfish was absolutely correct in saying "It's just plain common sense . . .". Perhaps that time is not now?

Ask yourself this question: Have you ever posted anything here about meat poachers in Africa?

On more than one thread, I have seen people suggesting that prison or even death is not enough for those who poach for meat (let's leave ivory and rhino out of this for now).

Who gave this God-given right to hunt and fish to North Americans but not to Africans? We have so many ways to feed our families without hunting - each and every one of us, including the poorest - while many Africans don't. Yet we continue to assume that it's not only just but reasonable to ban all Africans from hunting any of the game on their continent without paying what we would pay to do the same. We react with outrage at the use of snares . . . But most Africans cannot legally own a gun.

I would say to firehuntfish that he's right in theory, and I would love to live in a world where his view prevailed. But this world is not that world. In this world, politicians keep their jobs by appealing to the greatest number of voters (we call that democracy). If the greatest number of voters doen't understand what we do, and don't agree with it, then they will take our "God-given" right away from us, and we will become poachers in our own land.

I am from Alberta, and I have no love for our current government, but they were elected, and we the people have given them the right to pass laws. If there is enough outrage about this in Alberta - and make no mistake, the anti's will keep stirring this pot - the law will be changed, and the Minister will have the support of the majority of Albvertans to do that.

Many of you may recall the seal hunt in Eastern Canada. The government of Canada fought long and hard to keep the hunt alive, but over time, the costs of doing so became so great - trade disputes with Europe and others, tourism boycotts, endless bad publicity, endless fundraising opportunities for opponents, etc., that even those who practiced the hunt resigned themselves to its end.

Let's not let that happen to us. But let's not be naive about whether it could or could not happen either. It absolutely could.

I feel for you with Nutley an a Premier, we are equally screwed in Ontari_Owe with SeaBiscuit as our premier. Both elected by Public Service unions and voter apathy

Hank2211 · Aug 18, 2016

lcq said:
I feel for you with Nutley an a Premier, we are equally screwed in Ontari_Owe with SeaBiscuit as our premier. Both elected by Public Service unions and voter apathy

Actually, I think in our case it was far too many years of "Conservative" mis-rule that did us in.

lcq · Aug 18, 2016

Hank2211 said:
Actually, I think in our case it was far too many years of "Conservative" mis-rule that did us in.

true but the current gang in Redmonton are way worse throwing gasoline on the fire of low oil prices with carbon taxes, increased royalties and bloating the PS. IMHO Progressive Conservatives are no better than Liberals. Years of squandering the Heritage fund and expanding the PS by the previous government started you on the road to hell, us well we are already there

firehuntfish · Aug 18, 2016

Hank2211 said:
Who gave this God-given right to hunt and fish to North Americans but not to Africans?

This is an excellent question, and I'm glad you brought it up.... My perception and opinion of our rights including the right to use the land and sea to feed ourselves is global, and it is far from theory... It only becomes theory when you give up and give in on the fight for your rights. Make no mistake, in this world, I do acknowledge that it will be the fight of our lives. I just wish more hunters regarded it with the same sense of urgency.

I empathize with native Africans, or any native people for that matter, who have lost the right to feed themselves from the land. Poaching game for the sole reason of putting meat on the table is not, and should not be a crime in my view. As you said, we will leave the illegal poaching for other reasons out of this conversation.... As many of us are aware, the problems that many of these 3rd world countries face are complex. Most of these places are controlled by corrupt and/or incompetent governments, and they fail to provide the basic necessities to the poorest of their people. I would much rather see these people maintain the means to restore their rights and have them hunt and feed themselves rather than relying on a handout form a visiting hunter. As you alluded to, that is not the reality in too many places. I only wish I had both the answers and ability to restore these rights.

Hank2211 said:
I would say to firehuntfish that he's right in theory, and I would love to live in a world where his view prevailed. But this world is not that world. In this world, politicians keep their jobs by appealing to the greatest number of voters (we call that democracy). If the greatest number of voters doen't understand what we do, and don't agree with it, then they will take our "God-given" right away from us, and we will become poachers in our own land.

It will definitely become this type world if we let it happen.... Admittedly, it may be a foregone conclusion regardless, but I, for one, cannot just sit back and watch...

firehuntfish · Aug 18, 2016

"I’VE SAID IT BEFORE, I'LL SAY IT AGAIN, IF YOU WANT TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS AND THE RIGHTS OF OUR CHILDREN TO HUNT AND ENJOY WHAT WE DO, BECOME A MEMBER OF SCI."
http://www.jimshockey.com/

By the way, here's a quote that I just copied from Jim Shockey's website. He uses the term hunting rights repeatedly in his messages and videos, but he never once refers to them as privileges. Feel free to verify that on his site. I posted the link if anyone is interested. It appears that Ole Jim and I share the same radical perspective.... I wonder if Jim has been fudging his bio this whole time, and he is not really Canadian?

Pheroze · Aug 18, 2016

@Hank2211 I don't think the opposite of poaching is as you stated:

Hank2211 said:
Yet we continue to assume that it's not only just but reasonable to ban all Africans from hunting any of the game on their continent without paying what we would pay to do the same.

I think everyone understands that a citizen of a country, territory or province, gets a break on fees. I don't think that anyone would object to Africans hunting for a different tag rate. I think that using the bounty of public spaces is an inherent right of a citizen, subject to the government managing it in the best interests of society. Can't I access crown land in Canada as a right, subject to its proper management by the crown? Maybe I am wrong here. But, my right as a citizen should not be circumscribed by my ability to access a supermarket.

K-man · Aug 18, 2016

Lets all remember a fundamental difference between Africa and America. In Africa, when you own the land you own the animals on it. In America, the animals (wild) on your land are owned by the people and managed by the local fish and game departments. Also, here in Oklahoma about 3 years ago, we passed legislature that actually says you have the RIGHT to hunt and fish, which as stated before is a big difference than a privilege. Am enjoying these posts, good job

Royal27 · Aug 18, 2016

K-man said:
Also, here in Oklahoma about 3 years ago, we passed legislature that actually says you have the RIGHT to hunt and fish, which as stated before is a big difference than a privilege.

For giggles I did an Internet search for "right to hunt."

The very first results showed that indeed 19 states have the RIGHT, not a privelege. The most interesting part to me is that most have been passed fairly recently. So... To me this is another example of not everything being doom and gloom for hunters.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/enviro...te-constitutional-right-to-hunt-and-fish.aspx

And assuming that this law hasn't been changed there are at least some places in Canada that consider it a right as well.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/02h10

Pheroze · Aug 18, 2016

Royal27 said:
For giggles I did an Internet search for "right to hunt."

The very first results showed that indeed 19 states have the RIGHT, not a privelege. The most interesting part to me is that most have been passed fairly recently. So... To me this is another example of not everything being doom and gloom for hunters.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/enviro...te-constitutional-right-to-hunt-and-fish.aspx

And assuming that this law hasn't been changed there are at least some places in Canada that consider it a right as well.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/02h10

That is a beautiful thing!

lcq · Aug 18, 2016

Royal27 said:
For giggles I did an Internet search for "right to hunt."

The very first results showed that indeed 19 states have the RIGHT, not a privelege. The most interesting part to me is that most have been passed fairly recently. So... To me this is another example of not everything being doom and gloom for hunters.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/enviro...te-constitutional-right-to-hunt-and-fish.aspx

And assuming that this law hasn't been changed there are at least some places in Canada that consider it a right as well.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/02h10

Royal if you live in one of the right to hunt states can you adopt me. I promise to be quiet and not clean my guns on the kitchen table.

Royal27 · Aug 18, 2016

lcq said:
Royal if you live in one of the right to hunt states can you adopt me. I promise to be quiet and not clean my guns on the kitchen table.

God bless Texas!!!

And I'm in Georgia now.

And for the record, I'm fine with cleaning guns at the kitchen table.

LivingTheDream · Aug 18, 2016

lcq said:
Royal if you live in one of the right to hunt states can you adopt me. I promise to be quiet and not clean my guns on the kitchen table.

I was just wondering where else are you suppose to clean them?

Next Cecil?

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