Ammunition for Cape Buffalo

PeteG said:

I was looking for where it mentions in the article the complete separation and couldnt find it.
Reason being i use the sciroccoII in my 300wm and if this is the case, i will do some testing on them... or switch back to the AFrame's.

The weight retention is not bad at all in the tests.
94% in Bare Gelatin and
85% in Auto Glass.

Comparably the TSX broke up and lost 2 petals in the Auto Glass and must have lost +-10% of its mass.

If the separation and bad performance was on your hunting trip, then i follow now. I thought it was mentioned in that article.

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Did the pictures not load for you? It shows the lead completely separated from the jacket and mushroomed out pretty flat.

One of the biggest complaints I hear on the TTSX is that the petals shear off completely resulting in the bullet penciling through.

One of my most frequent sayings when discussing bullets is, "There ain't no perfect bullets" and some of us are impossibly demanding

We're a persnickety bunch.

WildRose said:

It shows the lead completely separated from the jacket and mushroomed out pretty flat.

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I can see the TSX on the left and the scirocco on the right. Cant see the separation from jacket and lead though.

I've been pleased with the accuracy on the scirocco's in the Sako ammo, going to stick with it and try it on some animals this year and see what happens.
If i recover any, i will check the final results.

WildRose said:

We're a persnickety bunch.

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Absolutely!

All these bullets were recovered from DEAD animals.
My question: When in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?
I have recovered bullets that are not picture perfect before----all from dead animals. Surprise they did there job.
The ones I dislike are the ones where the animal was hit well but never was recovered or I had to head shoot after putting 2 rounds into the body with little/no effect. This would be Nosler BT bullets and another 160gr 7mm (several manufactures) in a 7mmRem mag. Stopped using the BT Nosler bullets and went to 140gr Partition bullets and problem ended.

Now DG FMJ/solids I cannot speak about. Please keep this in mind.

Divernhunter said:

All these bullets were recovered from DEAD animals.
My question: When in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?
I have recovered bullets that are not picture perfect before----all from dead animals. Surprise they did there job.

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My answer to this is pretty simple and I stated it earlier in the thread. It all depends on what your definition of "doing the job" is. If it is a dead animal in one particular case then these bullets have "done the job."My definition of a DG bullet doing its job is maximum penetration, good and consistent expansion, and weight retention. Based on that definition Hornady is not as good as other choices, nor do I even believe it is a DG bullet.

I could kill a buffalo with a .30/06 and a Remington Cor-Lokt. It would be dead. Is it therefore enough for the job? All depends on your definition....

Divernhunter said:

All these bullets were recovered from DEAD animals.
My question: When in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?
I have recovered bullets that are not picture perfect before----all from dead animals. Surprise they did there job.
The ones I dislike are the ones where the animal was hit well but never was recovered or I had to head shoot after putting 2 rounds into the body with little/no effect. This would be Nosler BT bullets and another 160gr 7mm (several manufactures) in a 7mmRem mag. Stopped using the BT Nosler bullets and went to 140gr Partition bullets and problem ended.

Now DG FMJ/solids I cannot speak about. Please keep this in mind.

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The failure comes in an animal that should drop dead due to the shot being perfect which instead runs off mortally wounded because the bullet failed to track straight through and or failed to penetrate deeply enough.

In the case of my Blue Wildebeest he was facing us slightly quartering with his butt slightly angled in my direction and his head/neck slightly turned looking at me.

I placed the bullet exactly on the crease of his neck but it only penetrated a maximum of about six inches and turned hard right and slightly up exiting high on his left shoulder.

It should have exited behind the right shoulder after a track of 14-18" which would have completely destroyed his heart and lungs.

As a result he ran a total of close to a half mile before going down for the last time allowing me to walk up and put a finisher in him.

In the case of my warthog she was quartering away and the bullet entered her left ham penetrating only about 1-1.5" turning hard right and slicing across the right ham but barely slicing through the skin. Again we had to track her for over a quarter mile before getting a chance to finish her.

Had the bullet tracked true it should have passed through the length of her body, through the heart and lungs and out of her chest/neck or burying up just short of exiting there.

As have mentioned before I've had these bullets perform similarly in the past on a couple of animals and I passed it off as just a quirk thinking perhaps the bullet had struck a small twig or something before hitting the animal or just simply the one in a million bullet that does something you simply can't explain.

I feel very fortunate in that First I had a second rifle in a different caliber to fall back on of ample caliber and secondly I was able to buy ammunition locally to replace what I'd brought to feed the 300 wm.

Hope that helps. WR

Divernhunter said:

All these bullets were recovered from DEAD animals.
My question: When in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?
I have recovered bullets that are not picture perfect before----all from dead animals. Surprise they did there job.

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They failed when they did not perform as expected, broke up before causing a large enough wound channel to kill the animal quick enough to prevent the DG animal from reaching you or your PH allowing them an opportunity to bite, gore or stomp you.

I see the comparison being not much different than your BT example. And if you search a bit you'll read of lost game to the DGX.

Phoenix Phil/Wildrose/Royal27---Did you bother to read my statement about not being about DG bullets which I agree should not deform, should travel straight in the animal and such. My comments were more about bullet performance on other game. I found Swift A-Frames to work every time. A couple of those did not look "picture Perfect" when recovered BUT NO animal went more than 40 yards and those were dead running. Two of the 3 ran head on into trees. Most all never went anywhere. This was the results with approx. 25 African PG animals and a dozen animals in the USA. This does not count the 20+ monkeys also shot and just dropped.

I have also never had a problem or long tracking with Nosler Partitions which we have taken a large number of deer/pronghorns/pigs and some elk with.

My point was that so many people will condemn a bullets performance while standing over a kill(that did not run far) yet they have the animal. The animal is dead. The bullet did its job. Get over it. NOW THIS DOES NOT REFER TO DG SOLIDS/ FMJ BULLETS AND THEIR USES.

Please go back and read my disclaimer which was in the original post about DG bullets. I have read/seen the posts about the non-uniform performance of the Hornady bullets and "I personally" would use a different bullet if I were to need solids/FMJ bullets for hunting DG. Heck I would need a larger rifle than the 338Win mag or 45-70 I have. I have two 50BMG rifles but most of the time they cannot be used and they are very heavy.

I do not use the Hornady or other cup-n-core bullet for my regular hunting. Usually Nosler Partition or Swift bullets or Barnes TTSX (when required) for my hunting of all game that is not DG. I will never get the chance to hunt DG myself

PeteG said:

I can see the TSX on the left and the scirocco on the right. Cant see the separation from jacket and lead though.

I've been pleased with the accuracy on the scirocco's in the Sako ammo, going to stick with it and try it on some animals this year and see what happens.
If i recover any, i will check the final results.

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I hate admitting that I've screwed up but I did here. I was going off of the picture and didn't read the fine print HA!

I thought I was looking at pictures of two Sirocco's that had separated completely with the lead on the right and the jacket on the left.

Hopefully this will be my worst mistake for the week!

@Divernhunter,

Missed your previous posts on A-Frames etc., my bad. I was responding to your previous post not taking that into account, so my apologies for any offense taken.

About a year ago now, I woke up one morning to get my boys up for school and to get myself ready for work. As is my habit being addicted to the internet, I went to check email, FB and what's up on AH. It wasn't long before I realized something bad had happened, that something was my friend Reinhard Heuser of Kwalata had been mauled by a lion while on a lion hunt in RSA that was being led by Jacques.

The lion that charged was uninjured but very pissed. It charged Reinhard and Jacques put a shot into him before it made it to Reinhard. The lion barely reacted to the .416 Ruger shot, which was well placed. Fortunately for Reinhard the lion missed hitting him in the head, perhaps due to his being quite tall, perhaps distracted by the bullet he took, but instead got him by the shoulder. Had the lion got Reinhard by the head, I would not have seen him at this year's shows. Jacques moved in and distracted the lion into dropping Reinhard and charging Jacques who immediately when clear of Reinhard, shot the lion dead in the head.

After skinning and cleaning the lion, both bullets were recovered and both bullets looked like crap. Yes, the one bullet that killed him eventually, the head shot, in fact did just that. But while a lions skull is fairly tough, I think you'd agree it's not exactly an ele's skull. So not much excuse in my mind for these bullets. Yes, they killed the lion, but I think they failed in comparison to other DG bullets.

Had a better bullet been used, would that first shot have prevented Reinhard from being mauled? Impossible to say, perhaps not. But after hearing Jacques tell me how he had to put his thumbs and fingers into Reinhards wounds to contain the bleeding........I get just a bit worked up and admittedly it may cloud my judgment.

Again no offense intended, hope you understand why I get a bit passionate in my criticism of the DGX.

Divernhunter said:

Phoenix Phil/Wildrose/Royal27---Did you bother to read my statement about not being about DG bullets which I agree should not deform, should travel straight in the animal and such. My comments were more about bullet performance on other game. I found Swift A-Frames to work every time. A couple of those did not look "picture Perfect" when recovered BUT NO animal went more than 40 yards and those were dead running. Two of the 3 ran head on into trees. Most all never went anywhere. This was the results with approx. 25 African PG animals and a dozen animals in the USA. This does not count the 20+ monkeys also shot and just dropped.

I have also never had a problem or long tracking with Nosler Partitions which we have taken a large number of deer/pronghorns/pigs and some elk with.

My point was that so many people will condemn a bullets performance while standing over a kill(that did not run far) yet they have the animal. The animal is dead. The bullet did its job. Get over it. NOW THIS DOES NOT REFER TO DG SOLIDS/ FMJ BULLETS AND THEIR USES.

Please go back and read my disclaimer which was in the original post about DG bullets. I have read/seen the posts about the non-uniform performance of the Hornady bullets and "I personally" would use a different bullet if I were to need solids/FMJ bullets for hunting DG. Heck I would need a larger rifle than the 338Win mag or 45-70 I have. I have two 50BMG rifles but most of the time they cannot be used and they are very heavy.

I do not use the Hornady or other cup-n-core bullet for my regular hunting. Usually Nosler Partition or Swift bullets or Barnes TTSX (when required) for my hunting of all game that is not DG. I will never get the chance to hunt DG myself

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Yes I read your post, I was just trying to give you a very accurate answer with examples.

Some of the best and most experienced hunters I know will also shoot nothing but the Nosler Partition on any game and do so with great success. Most of my hunting however starts at 300-400yds so I prefer boat tailed bullets. I also find them far easier to seat when loading my own.

The truth is that most people who are complaining about bullets not performing are people who consistently fail to hit their mark or even failed to aim at the right mark but they just can't admit that the failure was on the part of the shooter rather than the bullet.

I can't count the number of times I was at a public range watching people shoot everything but the target and blame it on everything you can name except their own shooting ability who sit there dumbfounded when someone offers to shoot a few rounds to "help them" and those rounds group nicely.

I'm not married to any of the bullets or manufacturers but I have shot an enormous amount of game over the years with more than a dozen calibers and types of rifles and if I can save someone some aggravation or a lost animal by sharing my experience I'm happy to do it.

None of us learned it all without help from someone and for what it costs today just to shoot much less to travel half way around the world for a hunt shared knowledge is invaluable.

I found this website when I was preparing for my own first trip to Africa and the members here helped me tremendously to prepare for the trip so I'm just doing my part to pass it along.

I just wanted people to understand I was not talking about DG bullets. Not bad about anything just wanted us to be on the same page.
By chamfering the case necks I have no problem loading flat-based bullets. Been doing so since the 1960's.
I see the people you talk about at the range all the time. I am often asked to zero in a rifle or find out why it will not group. Most often it is the shooter that is the trouble. Sometimes how the scope is mounted(loose) or the rifle bedding screws loose or stock rubbing the side of the barrel.
I do have some favorite bullets for different cartridges and game/conditions but am open to trying others. Thus my desire to test the Scirocco bullets in my 338win mag. I know they have worked well in 257Roberts and 25-06/257Weatherby/6.5X55 and 264Win mag. for us so far.
Partition and A-Frames have always worked close or long range. I have used them as close as 3 feet to over 600 yards.

WildRose said:

I hate admitting that I've screwed up but I did here. I was going off of the picture and didn't read the fine print HA!

I thought I was looking at pictures of two Sirocco's that had separated completely with the lead on the right and the jacket on the left.

Hopefully this will be my worst mistake for the week!

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No worries.

Divernhunter said:

I just wanted people to understand I was not talking about DG bullets. Not bad about anything just wanted us to be on the same page.

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Sorry, I took it incorrectly as well. At least we were all consistent, which is more than can be said for Hornady DGX/DGS!

Divernhunter said:

Partition and A-Frames have always worked close or long range. I have used them as close as 3 feet to over 600 yards.

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I just got back from a buff hunt and had many people tell me a 250-grain GMX was too light. I've long been a fan of tough, light for calibre bullets. Weight retention equals penetration and velocity equals increased tissue damage. You can get both with a mono metal. Plus recoil is significantly reduced. I hit my buff high shoulder at about 80 yards. I thought he was going down right on the spot but he somehow managed to regain his feet. As he spun I placed a second one in his flank. He made it 20 yards and died almost instantly. I shoot mono metals in the bulk of my rifles and was pleased how well they performed in the 375. At 2850fps, the 375 with the 250-grain bullet doubles as a very effective 300-yard plains game rifle.

Both A-frame and Barnes TSX are top-quality, reliable performers on buffalo.

I personally do not use RWS ammo in .375 H&H, as it gives me extraction problems when it is hot.

Kano said:

Both A-frame and Barnes TSX are top-quality, reliable performers on buffalo.

I personally do not use RWS ammo in .375 H&H, as it gives me extraction problems when it is hot.

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Your not the first person i have heard say that About RWS, i have never had it personally, but i have herd about them giving that same issue in 375 H&H and also 416 Rigby, as i said it is hear say but from reliable source.

Shot Shot

I used Barnes Trophy Bonded Bear Claw...bullet did its job, but angle was shit and followed him a day and a half (on one lung) before we killed him. He was down, got up, then laid back down. The bullet performed, but not me. I had a norma soft completely fail on me on the shoulder bone on an African lion in January. I kept shooting so it ended up ok, but that bullet literally stopped on the bone. Cracked the bone, but didnt fully break it or blow through to the lungs.....375 H&H....stopped by a lion bone...so I wont be using Norma softs again. The skinners couldn't believe it. But, I used Norma solids on an ele and the rest of the shots on that buff and they were indestructible and ready to reload. Also, my CZ .375 shot all Hornady rounds terribly. Helen Keller could have made just as good of groups as me.

This thread has led me to doing eye blinding levels of reading and research or tough penetrating and DG rated bullets.

In the course of doing so I found an article discussing the actual construction of several lines of bullets which I found very interesting.

The DGX and DGS have a steel cup filled with a lead core and are cladded with brass to reduce fouling. I find this interesting because the DGX's I shot which we recovered had all separated completely with minimal weight retention and lacking what I felt like was adequqte penetration even on the Sable and Nyala.

I've also come across one of Barmex offerings the "MRX" which shows to have the cores separated similar to the nosler partition but with a lead core at the front, akd the rear core being filled with a titanium alloy.

Have any of you guys used the MRX? What did you think of it's performance?

More importantly are those of you who have tried them well enough impressed to say "That's my bullet for the future!

Now if Hordady would do something similar for the GMX series Rplacing the platic tip with a full length "spike" for lack of a better word thaf runs from base to tip in a bonded design.

I've made a similar suggestion to the guys at peregrine to do the same with their VRG3 and VRG4's if only in a limited run so some of us could give them some real world field evaluations.

I'm very clear as to how well stinless and titanium cores will penetrate in many of our military rounds starting with the lowly 556 right up through the venerable 50 cal, 416 and 375 offerings from Cheytac.

Sadly most of us will be shooting non lead by regulation long before we're through and I do apperaciate these companies really working hard to grab that non lead market and run with it.

@Kristof Aucamp interesting points made here

Shot Shot