Can the .458 now be considered a classic?

Pheroze said:

But didn't the. 458 WM usher in a new era in African cartridges? It was part of a new wave of modern cartridges I think. Can't it be credited for that new chapter and, in that sense, it is classic?

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That's what I think and that's why I thought it maybe could be considered a classic. It really did start a new era in Africa...

Wheels said:

Agree that the 458wm doesn't meet the standards of those mentioned above as a classic. The calibers mentioned above, however, have a 40 yearish head start.






Does 60 years constitute a classic? If so then it surely qualifies. @Badboymelvin your post below probably justifies it better than any others I have seen. http://www.africahunting.com/threads/why-i-no-longer-defend-the-458-winchester-magnum.17615/

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Thanks mate!

I think being 60, she's now proven herself and stood the test of time. She did usher in a new age of African hunting and is a classic as such. Maybe not a classic from the golden age, but a classic none the less.

So in reading this thread, inductive reasoning based on the premises presented would dictate if the .458WM isn't a "classic," then the .458Lott can't be either. It's subjective - we're not objectively comparing energy or momentum numbers, sectional density, or even success rates - we're just talking about a gut feeling.

So... About as productively - Blondes or brunettes?

Absolutely

The 458 Win Mag was doomed the minute it arrived on the market in the early fifties. The draw backs of the 458 win mag gave birth to the 458LOTT which is what the 458 WM should have been to start with, and if it had been, it would be much closer to being considered a classic today.
The cartridge suffered from a case that was too small for the .458, 500 gr bullet for the powders available at it's birth, and early on Winchester should have re-designed it the minute it showed its flaws even before it was marketed.
As soon as it hit the market I bought a mod 70 chambered for 458 win mag and found very quickly it was not something I wanted to take on the "BITE BACKS " with.
Today it is fairly dependable, but is still lacking in case capacity to compete with the REAL classic .450s. In a good CRF bolt rifle the 458 Lott is still the case to go to for use where a .458 is needed. Though some double rifles were made chambered for 458 Win Mag when the NE ammo became hard to come by, but shortly developed a bad rep in Africa for hang fires at the most inopportune time . It is not well suited to double rifles being a Belted rimless, and was hard to make feed properly in most bolt rifles
I do have two 458 Win Mag rifles, a Ruger No1 and a Mauser FN 98 CRF but neither of them have been to Africa or Alaska.
I would bet that most who use the 458 WM today were not even born when the 458 WM was introduced so do not have that bad taste in their mouths that has soured it for us old Geezers. During the fifties and sixties Winchester brought to the market a few cartridges that one rarely sees today.
That fact doesn't negate those who want any of those cartridges from buying and using them for what ever they want! Any gun and cartridge is better than throwing a rock!

not wanting to change the topic , but I can not understand why Winchester never made there M70 ( which I believe is a fantastic rifle) in the 458 Lott .

It wasn't invented by Gibbs, Rigby, Jeffrey, Westley-Richards, H&H or Mauser. It also isn't called the .458 Winchester Nitro Express and when you shoot older ammunition, the sting of cordite fumes doesn't make your eyes water... No one has ever picked up a .458 Winchester and had hallucinations of looking over the uncivilized and wild veldt, black with buffalo, teeming with nomadic tribes. Nor could one imagine it's shells sitting near the door of Leslie Tarlton's "Safariland" in Downtown Nairobi, ontop of a pile of canvas tents, waiting to be packed on a porter's back, as Sydney Downey whips open the front door. If you can't imagine an old brit with a handlebar mustache, putees and and a pith helmet fondling its worn blued finish on the quarter rib and the lion tooth scars, saying ".458 Winchester" in his Cornwall accent.... then I am sorry... no, it isn't a classic.

ChrisG said:

It wasn't invented by Gibbs, Rigby, Jeffrey, Westley-Richards, H&H or Mauser. It also isn't called the .458 Winchester Nitro Express and when you shoot older ammunition, the sting of cordite fumes doesn't make your eyes water... No one has ever picked up a .458 Winchester and had hallucinations of looking over the uncivilized and wild veldt, black with buffalo, teeming with nomadic tribes. Nor could one imagine it's shells sitting near the door of Leslie Tarlton's "Safariland" in Downtown Nairobi, ontop of a pile of canvas tents, waiting to be packed on a porter's back, as Sydney Downey whips open the front door. If you can't imagine an old brit with a handlebar mustache, putees and and a pith helmet fondling its worn blued finish on the quarter rib and the lion tooth scars, saying ".458 Winchester" in his Cornwall accent.... then I am sorry... no, it isn't a classic.

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Maybe not, but that was a previous time. The .458 WM WAS used by many a park ranger as the go to rifle, and carried by many PH's over the years. I know when I took mine to Africa after Buffalo, I was the only client in camp, but my rifle wasn't the only .458 WM in camp! I don't think the question was one of what everyone thinks is the best rifle, but I do think it a classic. I wasn't born in the 50's, in fact I didn't come along until 20 years later. It isn't from the Nitro Express years but definitely a well know and respected caliber in Africa. It gave birth to the .458 Lott and lord knows what else, and has been used to cull Big 5 animals for decades. By saying the cartridge isn't a classic because it isn't as old as a .375 HH is like saying a 1965 mustang isn't a classic car as it came later than a model A! Both statements are ridiculous IMHO. Whether one is a fan or not is not the question. Is it a classic? Hell yes it is!

Is interesting the problems with 458 WM. If you read The Hunting Blackbeards of Botswana, Dennis who took a lot of DG really rated the 458WM.

(Though I have it on good authority that he could shoot quite well )

I've been sitting this one out, must say that since it was developed and already proven just over a decade before I was born (and I'm an old dog now), I hereby proclaim it a classic.

There, it is solved now.

My point of view was that, there was a Golden Age of African Safaris... The Winchester missed it. By the time it came around, safaris were no longer 6 month affairs with nearly unlimited game bags and plains so teeming with animals that they seemed nearly inexhaustible. Someone made a reference above to a 60's mustang and how it is a classic car. Most people view the 60's and 70's as the Golden age of the automobile. I remember 20 years ago, the cars from the 60's were still considered classics. Who would say that today about cars from the 80's? Just because something filled the role it was designed for and did it quite well doesn't qualitfy it as a classic. If age was the qualifier... There are antique stores full of junk all around where I live, most of it is older than the vernerable .458 Winchester, but it is still junk. It has not somehow increased in value simply because it is 70 years old and filled the role it was implicitly designed for. So it is with the Winchester. I am not saying it is junk. What I am saying however, is that just because it turned 60 this year, and is older than some of the members on this forum doesn't make it a classic. I have roman coins that are 1,800 years old sitting in a display case right next to my head as I write this... Guess what? They aren't all that valuable even though they are from antiquity, because they aren't from the age of "Classical Rome" I still maintatin that cartridges used when Africa was still wild... THOSE are the classic cartridges. The reason the .458 Winchester exists is that it was trying to replace the expensive classics. The reason it was used so extensively in the 60's was that Kynoch went belly up and could no longer produce ammo for the classics. The Winchester was the only game in town.

This is all not in any way to degrade the .458 WM. I Think it is a great cartridge. Just like I think the .416 Taylor is a good cartridge. But I don't for a second believe it is a classic. It doesn't matter how old it gets. In 200 years, I still don't think it will be a classic. Being a classic has more to do with nostalgia than age. By the time it came around, Africa was a fairly modern country (relatively speaking). In 1956, African Safaris were big business... not so in 1898 when it took 6 weeks just to get to Nairobi and you still ran a fairly decent risk of being eated by a lion or speared by a native Somali. THAT, in my mind at least, is classic Africa.

fsrmg1 said:

I've been sitting this one out, must say that since it was developed and already proven just over a decade before I was born (and I'm an old dog now), I hereby proclaim it a classic.

There, it is solved now.

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you tell them !

Perceptions of what classic means to you....obviously there are differences among AH members.

I say it's a classic caliber meant for large game.

I have one .458 in a Mannlicher Schoenauer configuration...it definitely is a classic. The .458 Win Mag is a classic, it has been used extensively in Africa by great professional hunters and legendary rangers like Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth and Terry Irwin .....they all are classics today and role models we currently look up to today...I say this surely qualifies the .458 Win Mag as a classic... I see all agrees with me on this point... So it is decided then...the .458 Win Mag is a classic....

CLASSIC?????????

It is a mater of fact that folks tend to think anything that was invented before they were born is a CLASSIC, You know made in "olden times" as my grandson would say about things made in the late 1980s simply to him that is 20 years before he was born.

As stated by someone above the word "CLASSIC" means something that places where things were happening for the first time in the history of the tool used for a place that required very specialized tools being developed for conditions that had never before been needed. Once the were developed to a satisfactory working condition for that time in history, everything made after that point in time is no longer a classic.

The reason the 458Win Mag was used so extensively in Africa by the game rangers is because that was all they could get, and all the parks/game reserves could afford. The ammo for the many CLASSIC rifles in Africa was simply not available. It was not used because it was better than the classics it was just used because they had no other choice.

Today the 458 Win Mag is a workable cartridge because it can be loaded so it's early 15 or so years of life s problems no longer exist, and the folks who do love it are those who were not even born when the 458 Win Mag was a cartridge that could, and often did get people killed or injured because it failed to fire at the very inopportune time.

Having said that, if the 458Win Mag had been the 458 LOTT to begin with we would not be having this debate because it would not have been the undependable cartridge it was in it's early years!
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Dugaboy1, still the "Classic`s ammo was not available , the Classic calibers went obsolete, while the .458 Win Mag step in big time to became a classic ...I really think using the .458 Win Mag as is and not converting it to a .458 Lott is and was a caliber with correct shot placement , the caliber that shot/kill the most African dangerous game animals...take Richard Harland for an example, who have killed many thousands buffalo and Elephants in the Rhodesian corridors...with a .458 ( Win Mag)Mannlicher Schoenauer ....because it was his job, but he had a talent to kill these animals like no other hunter/PH or ranger ever had...and never ever will be able to kill thousands of dangerous game animals...that on itself according to me is a classic caliber .....

Im not sure what "calling" it a classic does or doesn't do for the cartridge. Personally I have zero concerns because of the initial issues. They've all been settled now anyway.

Taking in account the many different opinions regarding one subject there is not really a right or a wrong, it is so or it is not so, I think discussion about subjects in this regard, especially when rifles are concerned really stimulates good discussion, provide insight and aspects from different angles and views of opinion...through out the whole process everybody is learning...

All this talk is reminding me of a mate during my Army days. He was explaining to us the uniqueness of his heritage. It seemed that his great great grand daddy was part indian, so that made him 7/8 Cherokee, 5/8 Pawnee and 12/8 Mohawk. He was going to go on, until I pointed out that he's already about 3 indians worth, so I asked how much white blood he had. He said 7/8 German, 1/2 French, 5/4 English, 7/4 ... And so on and on it went.

I still get a laugh out of it when I think back.

Forgot to add that he also thinks that the 458 is a Classic. Do the math. It is 2/3 work horse, 6/5 deadly, 3/2 available, 8/7...