African price wars!

Wheels said:

Don't you just love free enterprise!

We can create the livelihood we want, that coincides with our passions. We have in our power, the opportunity to succeed beyond our wildest dreams. We also have in our power the ability to fail miserably.

On the upward curve of every market cycle, individuals jump into an industry because they see opportunity and profits being made by others. As the cycle moves past the pinnacle, the marginal companies are shaken out of the industry. If the cycle turns into a major correction, many of the older more stable companies loose their way and cease to exist as well. This allows the young guys with wild dreams, better ideas, and the willingness to work 80-100 hours a week to step in and ride the next cycle to success.

The safari industry is no different. It is a young mans game. Few older guys are willing to work those 100 hour weeks anymore. There aren't very many Danny McCallum's or Roy Vincent's out there these days.

Some of us are old enough to remember the deregulation of the airline industry and the telephone industry. I can now call friends and family around the world at a cheaper rate than I could call them 30 years ago across the state. I just returned from Africa. My airfare was cheaper than I remember it being in the 1970's. Look at the great deals we now have due to deregulation. Do I miss Braniff, TWA, Pan Am, etc.? No, I prefer a carrier that is competitive at prices I can afford. (Even if those transoceanic flights are miserable)

I am not in the oil industry but I do live in the oil patch. Unless something changes in a hurry, 2016 will be the worst year for my business since 2001. Is this my fault? Of course. Have I become a dinosaur like Braniff, TWA or Pan Am? Time will tell. Am I immune from the markets? Of course not. (Please don't feel sorry for me. That is not the reason of this post, and I don't feel sorry for myself.)

To all of you outfitters out there that are trying to break into the industry, or a market segment like AH, with cheap rates, I wish you all the best. You are keeping all the older outfitters honest. (Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.) If you screw clients or offer poor value for the money, places like AH will string you up by the scrotum and help expedite your demise. If you offer good value for the money, perhaps we will share a campfire one day.


CAPITALISM ROCKS! Try it!

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Very well said.

Africa is and has been priced great in comparison to North America. I would hate to see it become so cheap that all the game gets replace with cattle. Like my friend in Namibia says the game will be on his place as long as it has value and people come to hunt but he also has cattle sheep and goats.

I agree that "wheels" free enterprise post was well said. Each SA outfitter is going to do what they can to support their business model, which can be different for a variety of reasons. I do think that it is unfair to classify a more moderate or "value priced" hunt as cheap, or to broadly associate this type hunt with fraud. Fraud is a serious issue that no industry or its clients will tolerate. I do find it somewhat pompous and humorous that Jaco feels the need to imply he is the "Bentley" outfitter on this forum who has the supreme "product offering". And anyone with lower prices might be just a short timer selling "cheap internet hunts". There are plenty of good outfitters on AH offering a wide range of outstanding hunting opportunities. Each may be different but that doesn't make them good or bad.

Lee M said:

I agree that "wheels" free enterprise post was well said. Each SA outfitter is going to do what they can to support their business model, which can be different for a variety of reasons. I do think that it is unfair to classify a more moderate or "value priced" hunt as cheap, or to broadly associate this type hunt with fraud. Fraud is a serious issue that no industry or its clients will tolerate. I do find it somewhat pompous and humorous that Jaco feels the need to imply he is the "Bentley" outfitter on this forum who has the supreme "product offering". And anyone with lower prices might be just a short timer selling "cheap internet hunts". There are plenty of good outfitters on AH offering a wide range of outstanding hunting opportunities. Each may be different but that doesn't make them good or bad.

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Correction I never said or placed myself in any category, this is an assumption, I said.
Some sell, Kia some sell Mercedes and some Bentley, I never placed myself in a specific bracket,
Now we all know what assumption does don't we...

My best always

Jaco Strauss said:

..............
Now we all know what assumption does don't we...

My best always

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Something like that.

Jaco Strauss said:

There are different markets in our industry some sell Kia others Mercedes others Bentley all of them get what they pay for.

@Bushwack very true.

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@Lee M please find my exact words above.
Also fact remain that Internet hunts are substantially lower priced over the spectrum than non Internet hunts.
Reason is that it's mostly a Un personable platform and price is the initial attractant.
I never said outfitters were croocked that priced out, low cost hunts, this is also an assumption many times in this thread I said straight up: all outfitters are entitled to they're pricing, they're math did not make sense to me....... That's all.
My best always

Wheels said:

We have in our power, the opportunity to succeed beyond our wildest dreams. We also have in our power the ability to fail miserably.

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Wow Bob your whole post rocks! But a point so many forget is that the above two points are interconnected. You can't have the one opportunity without the other! Not in a capitalist system, and no other system has yet proven itself to be sustainable.

And you better explain what I was trying to say in my points about paradigm shifts. You explain it perfectly and in better layman's terms. Thank you for the clarity!

Bob

Jaco Strauss said:

@ActionBob R13 a liter is presice even R14 per liter depends where you refuel we pay double per gallon you pay.
Prove me wrong...
I put in a crap load of fuel on a monthly basis, how much fuel does a Yamaha 4 stroke 90hp use per kilometer? I know I run them.
In Moz I pay more than double a gallon up to R20 a liter.
I do math I also understand running cost, you on the other hand I don't believe do in terms of running a safari company.
In short we pay in SA over $3 per gallon give 20 - 40 cents above $3 here and there, fuel in Dallas was less than a buck 30....
The oil price might work in your favour not in ours my dear sir.
The industry is not going broke at least I'm not, but outfitters or some of them are seriously underestimating what will happen in SA this year.

Maybe it's allot of the guys losing lion hunts, I don't know all I know is they are going to hurt.

Point in case I quoted a old client on a 1x1 $7k couple 100 dollars up or down.
For 8 days in Limpopo
And
1x eland
1x Impala
1x waterbuck
1x Blesbuck
1x warthog
I gave him this stunner deal because he is an old client, I'll never give this to a first timer.
His reply was that this very hunt should sell for $3k less...........
$4560!!!!! $4560!!!!!!
My reply was you are unrealistic I wish you luck on your safari.

I don't care I just know he'll be back, I do the math, I understand the industry, in 15 years I should hope so..... I know the true cost of a safari.....
Outfitters do the math.... It's unrealistic.
You can quote what you like it's still not a realistic deal...... I think lions hurt guys more than we think..,

I refuse to play the price game...

My best.

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Ohh so true...and now I am the "second outfitter" that knows how to run a safari company!

One thing that would help costs is get that convention out of Vegas. Cheap hotel and cheap flight but a complete rip off after that. 7.03 cents for a beer. Everywhere you delt with change and pennies. The whole town must be run by idiots. Outfitters ought to boycott that rip off town if the convention is going ti be held there. Dallas was cheaper and hust as good. I did wun a couple hundred at the crap table help pay for their expensive beer

lwaters said:

One thing that would help costs is get that convention out of Vegas. Cheap hotel and cheap flight but a complete rip off after that. 7.03 cents for a beer. Everywhere you delt with change and pennies. The whole town must be run by idiots. Outfitters ought to boycott that rip off town if the convention is going ti be held there. Dallas was cheaper and hust as good. I did wun a couple hundred at the crap table help pay for their expensive beer

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Doubt that will ever happen. SCI has easily now outgrown the Reno convention center, unless Reno has had a major build up.

Valet parker at the Luxor told me that next year parking will no longer be free. Not a big deal for those that fly in and just use taxis or walk. But I drive up from Phoenix.

You know it! Vegas was expensive especially with the Mrs. but did the best buisiness I have done in one day in 15 years, so I could live with it.
Dallas was deaaaad oil is obviously taking a beating, the rest of the U.S. From what I experienced open to hunt and enjoy Africa, no matter who you are.

Luckily I don't go close to a gambling table...

So this is probably a bad way to check out hunts but it is how I do it. I see a show or a special here on AH that gives me an idea of something I want to hunt. I then search around and around and around to find the lowest cost. I see what is include and what isn't. Usually the low cost guy is a hunt only and everything is extra. Lodging is OK or not provided (this applies to North America). I understand what is and isn't provided as well as trophy considerations. Obviously a 34 inch buff probably isn't the same as a 40+ and then it changes again for free range or fenced. I talk to the outfitter and get a feel of his personality and if I will like him. From here I can determine value based on what matters to me. Very rarely will I book the low cost guy just because it doesn't have the value that matters to me. I have jumped on some high fence specials here in the US due to price and it gives my dad and I an excuse to do some type of trip and spend time together. Is it a true hunt...not really...did my dad and I have fun and have I met some great people...yes! There is value to that.

My point being is that it determines what the value is to the client and their preference. Some want 5000 acre, some want total free range and some want to chase SCI top ten. All will be priced differently.

As far as Africa goes, I think there is a supply problem. I read buff and Sable are coming down in the auctions, every outfitter I saw in South Africa has a herd of Sable. As the herds grow and mature there will be a greater supply. Prices will go down. If outfitters go it isn't worth it and sell the herd or let hunters shoot off the immature ones then the market will correct.

I am not sure if the exchange rate matters too much to cause big swing in prices. Honestly, if a client said the exchange rate is in my favor and my prices are in dollars that would probably make me mad. I don't go to guys in Canada and say this. Hell, I just want to book before the prices go up again!!! Dangerous game is going to become more and more expensive. Plains game I think will maintain or drop some. This is based on supply. How many guys wish they booked that leopard/lion hunt in SA last year? Do you think anyone is saying that about an impala?

Every year there are great hunts on AH, Jaco had a excellent cancellation price on a leopard last year, that a member on AH bought and had a great hunt. TMS also had a excellent leopard hunt available too, I drooled everyday over it, but I didn't have the time to take off. In the coming years I expect less of these deals because there will be less leopard hunts available....most likely. Supply and demand.

Fewer Leopard hunts if South Africa doesn't get it's act together for sure!

CAustin said:

Fewer Leopard hunts if South Africa doesn't get it's act together for sure!

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Very very true so important to be diversified...
I find it interesting that govt appointed a NGO which is outspokenly anti hunting orientated, they're CEO a self proclaimed anti hunting activist, to do they're leopard research.
CITES issued the quota, PANTHERA, reccomended to govt that it no be distributed to the professional hunting industry.

What is even more intriguing is the fact that SA receives a quota of 150 the hunting fraternity receives 50 where does the other 100 go and as of yet we have not received an answer on whether or not that will be issued to whomever it is issued to.....

5 years of asking govt to supply numbers on PAC leopard and no answer, I smell a pile of rats!

My best always

Thanks for update on the leopard situation in RSA, I always smelt something unprofessional was going one like involving emotions rather than facts into the equation. I also wonder if the government for some reason is using those permits, rather supporting the people they are suppose to serve.

Quality of experience, cost of operator overhead, cost of the hunt, reputation of the outfitter all come together in a complicated equation. An equation that is different for everyone. It comes down to value as determined by each customer in each business. Example 1: I owned a pet store. People wanted healthy animals and quality products and knowledgeable staff. I was the highest margin retailer of pets in my market. I decided I could never be cheap enough to attract the low price customer and stay in business the way i wanted to do business. I also found that those who always wanted the low price were the biggest pain and would not have been happy if I sold them at below my cost. So I raised my prices slowly over time and got rid of customers who were price focused. What did my my customers get for these high prices? Best product, best animals, most knowledgeable staff. We would go to customers homes if they had problems with products or fish they did not buy from us and solved problems and never charged them a dime. They were happy and I was happy.

Example 2: I have used a taxidermist in the US for 20 years. Great quality. Slow service. High price. I want quality in my mounts. Now my taxidermist is a one man show and can only do so much in a day. He is also getting older like me. So he has raised prices over the last few years way beyond inflation to increase his income for retirement. I continued to pay the higher prices. He does African animals as well as North American and does quality work on both. I used him for animals from my 2013 Safari. I saw some work a friend had done on African Animals and North American trophies by another taxidermist. It looked just as good as mine and some of the mounts were 20 years old. I check out his prices, 30% less than I was quoted for my 2013 safari. Example; old taxidermist $950 for a Springbok. New taxidermist $595 for Springbok.

I am switching to my friends taxidermist for my 2015 Safari. I still want quality but I am not going to pay more for the same work. New taxidermist is in a lower cost of living area of the US and has lower overhead. I am taking my lioness for a full body mount to a third taxidermist that is 40% higher than the other two however his cats are outstanding. What I am saving on the other mounts almost pays for the lioness.

Oh man.... I have really tried to sit on the sidelines on this one, but I have a few thoughts on this that haven't been expressed by anyone yet.

I am not defending Jaco. He is a big boy (literally...), and he is quite capable of defending his own views. However, I believe that some here are not fully appreciating the points that he has tried to make, or possibly taking them the wrong way. And, I must honestly say that I do share his frustration to some extent.

From my own experiences as an outfitter representative on this site and others, It is a regular occurrence for me to submit a proposal to a prospective client only to have them get back to me and inform me that my proposal was considerably higher than that of many of the other outfits. On several other occasions, I have also had prospective clients communicate back to me that other outfitters that they were dealing with pleaded with them to allow them to have the last bid. They assured the client that they would beat any offer that we would propose no matter what... Follow me here... I'm not crying or whining.... Just stating facts for context.....Now, do they have the right to do so in a capitalist system? Absolutely... They can give their hunts away for free if they like... Is it smart business strategy? We will see in time I suppose. Is it ethical? Lol... I guess these days ethics are a luxury that few businesses can afford, or at least care to afford.

In my fishing charter days, price cutting charter boats were an everyday fact of life. I shared a dock with 30 other boats side by side. The desperate boats would sail for anything they could get, and beat any deal offered.. The big equalizer for me though was that I had the ability to demonstrate the differences right there on the dock. A big, clean boat, immaculate tackle, professional looking crew, and fish stretched from piling to piling every afternoon separated me from the fleet. If that sounds arrogant, no apology. I was one of the best and worked damn hard to get there. My point is that it's hard to demonstrate those types of differences on the internet or even at the shows....

Jaco Strauss said:

Also fact remain that Internet hunts are substantially lower priced over the spectrum than non Internet hunts.
Reason is that it's mostly a Un personable platform and price is the initial attractant.

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In my experience, this above is absolutely true, and hence, part 2 of the problem... On the internet, it is extremely difficult to get a prospective first-time safari client to grasp the differences between the Kias, the Mercedes, and the Bentleys. They see endless seemingly familiar websites all showing photos of hundreds of game animals from which they could not tell a 48" kudu from a 58" kudu. They cannot grasp the difference between an outfitter leasing a handful of small concessions and all of his equipment versus an operator owning tens of thousands of acres of their own land responsible for the maintenance of a lodge, a dozen vehicles, tractors, etc...... And quite honestly, we can't expect them to at first glance.

The prospective client is being overwhelmed with offers, promotions, and solicitations from every direction. We, as forum members, outfitters, and reps alike, can all get on this forum and implore all those researching outfits to practice their due diligence, and thoroughly research all options before booking. With that, we as outfitters and reps must do our jobs to explain those price differences and promote our services as best we can.....Yet, the fact remains that the lowest price coupled with the willingness of some outfits to lower it to any level to close the deal is harmful as a whole to the outfitting industry in my opinion.

So, we deal with it the best we can and hope that we can reach our target clientele at least with the more diligent safari consumers,. But, doubting that these practices are not commonly occurring on the internet or at the shows is naïve.

I agree with you Dan, I would hate to deal with someone always bugging me to lower their prices and comparing this company to that operation. Everyone is different and if people want the lowest price they should just say that out front and move along and bargain hunt. If I was an operator and had my prices out for the world to see, I would not want someone to come up and say I would book with you but I need a 20-30% discount off this package because "Jack and Jill" over there have a similar hunt and that is what your price should be now.

Well that's when you tell that person politely that you appreciate their interest but can't help them. Clients are always going to try to negotiate price and we've all dealt with those that are the wheeler dealer types that are just out to see how cheap they can get you. I've always been quick to point out what services I offer that I feel sets me apart and above from the rest. Those that are just out to try and see how low they can get me down I tell I can't help them.