The Quality of American Firearms...

My Remington and Winchester has never let me down. I shoot long range with the Remington 700, and hunt Dangerous game with my Model 70. Hell, this last trip I had to refuse selling my Winchester to one of the PH's! Sometime I think there is a smack of arrogance when people talk about the European rifles, and dismiss the American made guns. I think that is both sad for them and great for us as it means more for the average Joe over here! If a rifle is accurate, doesn't malfunction and is of sufficient caliber for intended use, then one should be proud to have such a rifle no matter what they paid. I wish there were more American doubles at a reasonable price point, but there isn't so we have to get a second mortgage in most of our cases to obtain one!

We have all had problems with manufactured items, be it a rifle or pick up truck. I have owned three Steyr rifles, two AUGs and a scout rifle, they were good rifles but so are the Remington rifles I own(50 or so of them). I had a very bad experience with a Weatherby but I don't stand on a soapbox about the evils that I experienced. Many of my friends swear by them and I'm glad they are happy.
I have not experienced any trigger problems with a 700, I actually love the old triggers. I do know that one of the "flaws" of a Rem trigger is that they are easily adjusted to dangerous conditions by retards that should not be "gunsmithing" on their firearms. Basically most class action law suits in my opinion stem from the lack of personal accountability that people have grown so fond of. Along with proper marksmanship, firearms safety and common sense I have also tried to instill in my children that they are responsible for their actions and their success in life, you are not a winner just because you got your ass up and came to the game. Most accidents are caused by lack of proper training and carelessness. I don't expect to sue the beef industry because my cholesterol is higher than giraffe vagina! So let's quit busting each other's balls over the best and teach people how to use what they got!
Done with my sermon,
Father Cody
Church of STFU

Exactly!

Bullthrower338 said:

I do know that one of the "flaws" of a Rem trigger is that they are easily adjusted to dangerous conditions by retards that should not be "gunsmithing" on their firearms. Basically most class action law suits in my opinion stem from the lack of personal accountability that people have grown so fond of.
Church of STFU

Click to expand...

Bingo you nailed it. That is why more gun makers are moving towards the accutrigger (AKA lawyers) style trigger where even if someone adjusts it too light there is an extra margin of safety for the retards

I have written, ghostwritten, co-written, or "edited" (rewriten) the hunting memoirs of many of the world's most experienced big game hunters, seven of them Weatherby Award recipients.

All but one had hunted on six continents and taken nearly everything that walks, from muntjac to elephant. The exception was an outfitter who had culled literally thousands of water buffalo, wild cattle, camels and donkeys in Australia.

Only two handloaded their ammunition. The rest of them shot factory-made stuff right out of the box. They found a caliber and a bullet of a weight and make they liked, and used it on everything except dangerous game.

Prince Abdorreza Pahlavi of Iran was one of the exceptions. He used a variety of custom rifles presented (given) to him by various people, including gunwriter Jack O'Connor. His favorite rifles were built by American gunsmith Al Biesen.

Although they understood ballistics, none could be called a "gun nut" and only two of them (one was the prince) used anything except American-made rifles. Please note that these were guys who could afford the very best and most expensive of firearms, but to them their rifles were merely tools, like a hammer or a shovel.

C.J. McElroy, the founder of Safari Club International, for example, owned only four rifles during his long hunting career -- a pump-action Remington .30/06 that he used for his first safari, a Weatherby .300 Weatherby, a Browning .458 Win Mag (the other exception), and a Winchester Model 70 in 7mm Rem Mag that he used after he was bothered by the Weatherby's recoil. Mac's rifles looked as if they had seen service in both big wars and a dozen John Wayne movies.

I find it interesting in light of this thread that in all the hours I spent interviewing them not one of these extraordinary hunters ever mentioned having a firearm malfunction.

Bill Quimby

Bill,
I would have to involve a proper scotch to conduct an interview such as you must have had! Beware of the rifleman with a rifle with no scars, unless it is a Sunday rifle, only to be taken out on days the weather forecast is good!lol
Cheers,
Cody

I have never owned a foreign rifle.... As I am sure they are great. However, my Remington, browning, ruger, etc.... Have knocked down everything efficiently I have aimed at. I'd love to own more.... But for now..... All good.

Cody:

I think you would be disappointed if you tried to interview most of these guys. You would have to work very hard to get any details about the rifles they used. As I said, guns merely were their tools. It would be like asking a plumber to talk about his favorite monkey wrench or an electrician about wire-strippers or screw drivers..

Bill Quimby

billrquimby said:

Cody:

I think you would be disappointed if you tried to interview most of these guys. You would have to work very hard to get any details about the rifles they used. As I said, guns merely were their tools. It would be like asking a plumber to talk about his favorite monkey wrench or an electrician about wire-strippers or screw drivers..

Bill Quimby

Click to expand...

I wonder about just saying that their rifles were just tools of the trade. I have been lucky enough to be able to talk to a few hunters like were mentioned and the rifle that they use usually holds a reverence of some kind to them. While it may be a tool of the trade it is a cherished tool and to get them talking about the scratches in the black walnut stocks or the dents in the scope is like opening a new book.

JimP:

You apparently talked with some rare individuals from that echelon of hunters. I have spent a lot of time with many experienced international hunters/collectors and know only two who felt that way about a gun.

J.Y. Jones, an opthamologist and an author, used the same Remington .30-06 to take every type of game animal in North America as well as a slew of African, South Pacific, South American and Asian game.

The other man took up mountain hunting fairly recently and still is in love with a .300 Remington Ultra Magnum built on a Remington action by Christensen Arms.

With it, he has collected more than 100 different species/subspecies of game animals on four continents (including more than 200 whitetails and at least one specimen from each type of the world's wild sheep and goats still available to hunters) since shooting his first Rocky Mountain bighorn ram in 2001. (He now has two Grand Slams.)

I'm helping him with his book now.

Bill Quimby

Fortunately, my Remington 700 has the ribbed trigger, so not affected!!

BORN shooter and hunter, for sure.
WELL DONE to the lad and his teacher..

The OP mentioned CZ. In my experience the CZs are a real downgrade in quality from a Model 70. In fact, I must admit that the new Model 70s are BETTER than the pre-64s (and I own a lot of pre-64s).

CZ is like the "Savage" or Europe in the eyes of most Americans. The are very functional rifles at a good price point, but pretty rough otherwise. CZs do not have a good track record in extreme places like Alaska.

The quality of the Steyr is great, but the ones I have seen are probably less accurate out of the box than a Rem700 or M70. More of a conversation piece than a tool to most american hunters.

The quality of Remington has definitely diminished over the years, but the platform is extremely popular because of the unlimited aftermarket support. If you plan to customize a rifle, look no further than a 700. In America, most custom receivers are 700 copies that accept 700 parts. Almost all target rifles are built on a 700 action, which is a fantastic design for accuracy.

Americans are true people of the rifle, with the biggest gun culture and highest number of hunters in the world. We know the difference between a tool that does a job and an overpriced display piece (in America we call them barbecue guns). The fact that I still regularly use 3 of my great grandfather's M70s today, is a testament to what a well-made tool they are.

But make no mistake, most american hunters drool over a good Sako. Sakos have an excellent reputation for holding up from the humid swamps of the south, to the hot western deserts, to the freezing north, and the salty air of the pacific northwest. Sako has much respect here.

Ditto that Dog

Interesting questions.

I think for most of us who started shooting and hunting at an early age, and who grew up in middle-class households, domestic rifles were what were available to us.

After years of positive experiences, we easily rationalized that there was no real need to "upgrade".

Personally, I have well in excess of 100,000 rounds though dozens of domestic guns with nary a failure of any kind. Honestly, I cannot think of a failure of any firearm off the top of my head.

I can easily afford to buy higher end European rifles, but I see no need. My Rugers do me fine!

I spend the leftover money on bullets, powder and primers.

Desert Dog said:

The OP mentioned CZ. In my experience the CZs are a real downgrade in quality from a Model 70. In fact, I must admit that the new Model 70s are BETTER than the pre-64s (and I own a lot of pre-64s).

CZ is like the "Savage" or Europe in the eyes of most Americans. The are very functional rifles at a good price point, but pretty rough otherwise. CZs do not have a good track record in extreme places like Alaska.

The quality of the Steyr is great, but the ones I have seen are probably less accurate out of the box than a Rem700 or M70. More of a conversation piece than a tool to most american hunters.

The quality of Remington has definitely diminished over the years, but the platform is extremely popular because of the unlimited aftermarket support. If you plan to customize a rifle, look no further than a 700. In America, most custom receivers are 700 copies that accept 700 parts. Almost all target rifles are built on a 700 action, which is a fantastic design for accuracy.

Americans are true people of the rifle, with the biggest gun culture and highest number of hunters in the world. We know the difference between a tool that does a job and an overpriced display piece (in America we call them barbecue guns). The fact that I still regularly use 3 of my great grandfather's M70s today, is a testament to what a well-made tool they are.

But make no mistake, most american hunters drool over a good Sako. Sakos have an excellent reputation for holding up from the humid swamps of the south, to the hot western deserts, to the freezing north, and the salty air of the pacific northwest. Sako has much respect here.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, CZ's are a very good option for the person that has a limit to their budget placing them in the mid-market. I tell those interested in a CZ that taking it to their gunsmith for a few inexpensive tweaks will make it a very solid, dependable rifle. As for the M70, my only negative experiences have been complaints about bedding issues which some attribute with the flat bottom receiver. Perhaps the newer aluminum bedding blocks might help... not sure.

CZ's the Savage of Europe? I would consider that a compliment to both. Savage has done some impressive work in the last few years and I hope it continues.

"The quality of the Steyr is great, but the ones I have seen are probably less accurate out of the box than a Rem700 or M70."... So, you never have shot one, you just saw some?

Interesting comment to make with no experience shooting one. Come on, take the plunge... shoot one! I did and I was convinced by having the ability to compare them to other rifles I have shot...

I agree that the Remington 700 action design is superb. It is the choice of the vast majority of snipers and competitive shooters. Its just that Remington is no longer interested in producing quality rifles. Instead, The investment group that owns Remington has chosen instead to follow the "quantity over quality" business model and they are now focused on profit. See Freedom Group/Cerberus Capital Management.

"Americans are true people of the rifle, with the biggest gun culture and highest number of hunters in the world. We know the difference between a tool that does a job and an overpriced display piece".

Yes, I am one of those Americans along with many, many of my friends, clients, business associates and hunting partners that know they can find a better and safer rifle than Remington. Sorry, you can't claim to represent the opinion of the majority of Americans.

Sako? My concern has been with the ejection issues of the Model 85 and to some degree, the 75. The bolt head-mounted extractor is significantly smaller than the full-length extractors on a Mauser 98-type receiver/bolt, therefore the grip on the case rim is not as secure. It seems to be the reason for the ejection problems.

Agree tarbe! Nailed it. I wanted a sako w/Swarovski optics real bad.... Had cash ready for. Went with a browning & Leupold instead..... No complaints.

Correction to my previous post...

I did have to bed a Ruger 77/22 in 22 Hornet to get it to shoot MOA.

I guess you might call that a failure.

But I consider that just rounding out my skills!

A different Perspective.... Im an Aussie so don't have the same patriotism associated with " buying american". To me its here nor there I look at what represents quality, affordability and value. That being said If money was no object i would have nothing but Rigbys/Mausers/Custom rifles but unless my Lotto numbers come through Im out of luck!

In regards to rifles I'm lucky enough to own Sako, Anschutz(54 action), Winchester and most recently a Ruger. The winchesters particularly the new Model 70s are brilliant rifles and would happily own another one- (Any one from Winchester reading this PLEASE bring out a Model 70 in a 404 or 416 Rigby!) Like wise my " new" Ruger will put 3 shots at 100m ins side 1.1 inches and thats in a 416 Rigby!

The Sako has a slightly better build quality and a crisper Trigger and overall Finish. When the time came to purchase my 3006 i looked at Sako, CZ, and Winchester- I settled on the M70 because to me it represented, quality affordability and value- in my mind the Sako's extra $1000 wasn't worth it..

When the time comes to purchase my next rifle I will go back to looking at what represents quality, affordability and value to me.

Safe shooting
TW

The_Wanderer said:

When the time comes to purchase my next rifle I will go back to looking at what represents quality, affordability and value to me.

Click to expand...

This pretty much sums up the answer to the OPs pitch for Steyr, and why the M70 will always outsell the Steyr by an astronomical margin.

Americans view guns as tools for the most part, and will take good quality at a great value over "buying American". When I travel the world, people have this misconception about Americans only buying American products, which couldn't be further from the truth. PROOF = Glocks are the most popular handguns in America, Toyota makes the 3 top selling cars in America, Ikea is the most popular home furnishing store, and Samsung is the top selling television. I could go on and on.

Americans are just like people everywhere in this regard, which is why Winchester is also more popular than Steyr in Europe, Africa, Australia, and everywhere else. To think that the Popularity of Winchester, Ruger, and Remington is somehow tied to the "American" way of thinking, is ignoring the reality of their international popularity. The Winchester is a better value than the Steyr.