Trophy Debate

Billc--you are missing the point. A first-time hunter really has no way of judging an animal. So of course Dobber is happy. Heck, if my PH on my first hunt had told me to shoot an impala that was 18 inches, I would have been happy at the time. I just wouldn't have known one way or the other if that was truly a mature animal. Fortunately, the impala my PH told me to shoot was 24 inches.

It really boils down to a trusting your PH. A PH is there to identify which animal to shoot. It shouldn't be the client's choice.

From a polite request to an Outfitter to explain an apparent incongruity ("Seeing lots of larger Kudu", "This one would have been great in three years", etc) to a total Hijack.

So, I changed the location.

The topics are poignant and the debate is useful:
Outfitter and PH responsibility - conservation, ethics, code of conduct, etc.
Client - who really gets to make the decisions
Client - experience level, personal goals.
Trophy - Standards. Laws in different countries.
Hunting

First I really want to thank Brickburn for moving this. It is the right thing to do. Dobber's report is not necessarily the best place to..... have a disagreement. I too was surprised at how young the Kudu was, but didn't feel the need to comment further. With the new thread, I will say this. If Dobber was happy, then more power to him. As long as he understood there were bigger animals available and this was what he wanted then have at it. Sometimes the absolutely best trophy doesn't score well. Its the ones we work hardest for that we treasure. Like those that spend 20 or more days for a leopard.
For instance, one my most memorable trophies is my bighorn sheep. I got him on the last day of a 10 day hunt. He is a lot more important to me than the first hunter that year that killed his sheep on the first day of his hunt. I got to see country that most never will.
This is the way this animal was for Dobber. First trip to Africa and after a number of days and blown stalks on the well named Gray Ghost.... He took a animal that had eluded him for days. Its hard to put into words, but the key is that was still one of the best moments on his safari. In some areas it might not of been the right thing to do. In this area it appears to not be a problem taking a younger animal. That is the prerogative of the landowner. If the landowner believes its not a problem and the hunter is happy, then we shouldn't cast stones IMHO. Perhaps we wouldn't shoot it, but thats OK too.
By the way Dobber, please keep writing your report. MOST of us would like to hear the stories. Bruce

TEX84 said:

Billc--you are missing the point. A first-time hunter really has no way of judging an animal. So of course Dobber is happy. Heck, if my PH on my first hunt had told me to shoot an impala that was 18 inches, I would have been happy at the time. I just wouldn't have known one way or the other if that was truly a mature animal. Fortunately, the impala my PH told me to shoot was 24 inches.

It really boils down to a trusting your PH. A PH is there to identify which animal to shoot. It shouldn't be the client's choice.

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I am not missing any points as dobber already said he knew there was bigger and missed bigger. It is reading what is wrote and not making it out to read like you think it should.
I for one knew what was a good trophy on my first trip and to think every first timer goes with out a clue is not true. Must may not be able to judge inches but must can tell mature to an immature animal.

The same time as this report is going there is another report were a guy is taking a beating from the outfitter over thousands of dollars. No outrage from tex84,royal,tms or tootabi valley over on that thread. But then I am to believe the attack on dobbers thread is only about the age of the kudu. I have friends on both sides of this thread and would like to think when can be bigger people then the need to tear down any reports made be it a tootabi,paw print,kmg,hartzview or any others..

Would I have taken the kudu in question no I would not. Do I think dobber was take advantage of not at all. Would it have been better to let the kudu walk well yes it would have been. Was any laws broke by taking the kudu well no and that is why I have no problem with it being taken. Happy hunter in the end with no harm done by taking what he did.

Brickburn thanks for moving what you did as dobber deserve to have his report the way he wants it to be public forum or not lets have some respect for others who share there hunts.

Dobber, please share the rest of your experience with us. Simon raised a concern, and a legitimate one, but I can´t see that he is attacking you in any way, it´s just his opinion.

Lets just see this small incident as what it is, and let´s not overreact. We will be keeping this forum as what it is, the best on African Hunting.

to all !

What part of Dobber saying I chose to shoot that kudu bull does anybody not understand! HE ASKED THE PH COULD HE SHOOT THAT BULL AND THE PH SAID YES

Fact That bull is middle aged +- 5 years old, his mighty sword has anointed many a willing female! I should know, I have lived and worked this ranch for more years than some people have lived. I have had to deal with droughts, floods, kudu bulls eating the wife's geraniums at night on the barbeque deck. The list is never ending.

Fact This ranch has the densest kudu population in the world due to practical, not text book management. Conservation practises have been carried out since after the second world war when kudu first entered this area. Greater Addo never had kudu, their population originates from capture of new-born calves caught on this ranch, hand reared then released. I remember as a kid being followed by a calf to the milking stall to let the calf drink. The cow objected most violently! If anyone wishes to query this fact, I extend an open invitation to you to pay me a visit and we can take a tour of my ranch. We will have to use a helicopter because a truck will not cover it all in one day!

Has hunting been debased to carrying a tape measure and a scale as well as a rifle!

What constitutes a trophy, only horns of a certain length, tusks of a certain weight? What about the thrill of the hunt, the tears shed after, must it be a physical object.

Don't be quick to judge the PH, the landowner does not accompany him to the veld and hold his hand. He makes the decision, and in my mind he made the right one.

Everyone's wishes are different, respect each and everyone, and lastly respect that animal on the photo!

Fact Dobber was Loodt Buchners client. Loodt Buchner was my client as are many other outfitters that visit my ranch.

Thank you for your time.

Rhinoster Hoek Safaris said:

What part of Dobber saying I chose to shoot that kudu bull does anybody not understand! HE ASKED THE PH COULD HE SHOOT THAT BULL AND THE PH SAID YES
..................

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I guess the question is: Should the PH have said yes?
That's all.

For instance this standard is held in Namibia, as note earlier.

I think this is a difficult topic. First I am super happy for Dobber as it sounds like he had a wonderful time and by far that's the most important aspect of the whole deal.
Now I have to say I understand and agree with Simon and others for two main reasons 1) as an outfitter it's bad business 2) the client wether they know it or not get short changed and left spending a lot of money on an inferior animal.
That being said I understand and agree with aspects of the other side too. This is hunting not killing. One can't always get the "big one" under true hunting conditions. Also the most important aspect of any hunting is the experience and the hunt itself, the means not the ends so to speak.
I guess where I have an issue is that it's the equivalent of me selling a trophy whitetail hunt and allowing a client to shoot a spike deer. If the client wants to shoot a spike that's fine but it's not a trophy deer and shouldn't be charged as such by the outfitter. Now before I stick my foot in my mouth, I freely admit I don't know the circumstances of what was charged nor is it ANY of my business. I mention this to say that if he wanted that particular bull and that is what he would be happy with then I am perfectly fine with it provided he wasn't charged a full trophy fee for it. If he was charged full price then I find that not acceptable practice in my opinion. (Yes I know what opinions are like and believe me I am prone to make one out of myself) also it's none of my business as to what Dobber was or wasn't charged nor do I expect anyone to tell me. I state all of this just as mho in a thread designed to share the opinions on this particular matter.
Now as far as the kudu itself, physically I wouldn't consider it a mature shooter. Understand this is NOT a knock at Dobber. On my place we don't shoot animals until they are mature and reached the max potential they have as can be determined by one of my staff. That's what works for us, maybe not everyone else nor do I expect everyone to share my opinion. It does make one cringe a little however when they look at an animal and think "damn that would have been a real nice one in a couple of years". Of course this opens up another can of worms too. Sometimes animals need to be culled. In that case the young and old need to die for the betterment of the herd. This is a common and acceptable practice. I generally do my population control through the females of the species and post mature males who are not of trophy quality or animals who are genetically inferior to what the herd goals are. That's just me though.

For what it's worth maturity in an animals has always been the standard of what I consider a trophy personally. I've been known to stick my nose up in the air at a younger monster antlered/horned of an animal and take the old knarly broke horned warrior. That's my personal preference though. Hence by buff. Lol

BRICKBURN said:

I guess the question is: Should the PH have said yes?
That's all.

For instance this standard is held in Namibia, as note earlier.

View attachment 48691

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This is what we have in the Eastern Cape. No restrictions on size or weight.

PART VI - Professional Hunters and Hunting Contractors
(Substituted by PN153/1984)
51.
(c) "trophy"means the carcase of a wild animal hunted by a client which he retains as a momento of his hunting success

billc said:

The same time as this report is going there is another report were a guy is taking a beating from the outfitter over thousands of dollars. No outrage from tex84,royal,tms or tootabi valley over on that thread. But then I am to believe the attack on dobbers thread is only about the age of the kudu. I have friends on both sides of this thread and would like to think when can be bigger people then the need to tear down any reports made be it a tootabi,paw print,kmg,hartzview or any others..

.

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Please don't imply that I'm doing things I haven't, Bill. I haven't said a word about my opinion on the kudu that was shot in this thread, nor will I. I was clear on that from the beginning (see below). No attack from me on the kudu shot, period. I'm also not sure what other thread you're referring to? As much as I'm on here I don't read them all. I leave that to Brickburn.

I still stand by my stated opinion that all of the questions originally asked questioning the hunt were asked politely and were legitimate, regardless of whether either of us agree with them. The only real "tearing down" I've seen here was you referring to someone as a gutter snake. I'd like to think that you'd stop making such comments before accusing others of tearing someone else down.

Royal27 said:

I was staying out of this and will still not address what has become the main topic here

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@Rhinoster Hoek Safaris , if you think that is a +- 5 year old bull, you certianly have know idea!!!

Unfortunately when things are posted on the web you open yourself to public scrutiny.

I shot a 41 inch kudu in Namibia, many years ago. It was mature and only 41 inches long, people asked me why I shot it....I replied, I never knew if I was coming back. Funny thing is everyone here in the USA thinks it's a wonderful trophy. I enjoy the memories and the mount.

Congrats Dobbler! If you are happy with the hunt, which you are....so am I

I would have as a PH strongly discouraged the shooting of the kudu, just because it was young and not mature. That is my two cents. I'm honest about it. I have nothing against the outfitter he was hunting with.....at all.

I have stayed civil and polite, but my buttons are getting pushed. Lets be honest here, I have had so many PM and emails about my first post on the kudu. All were hunters saying they were shocked about the immature kudu, but didn't want to comment because they felt bad for Dobber. TOUGH!! It was not right to shoot that bull and no bullshit excuse will convince me differently. We are on this site to guide and help each other, if I can't post an honest opinion, then what is the point of being on this site. Keyboard warriors, what a bloody joke. Hater? I don't hate anyone on this site. But will say everytime I have been invovled in an argument, it's the same PH.

TMS said:

@Rhinoster Hoek Safaris , if you think that is a +- 5 year old bull, you certianly have know idea!!!

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I might have a bit

BRICKBURN said:

I guess the question is: Should the PH have said yes?
That's all.

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Brickburn has nailed it. That is the question.

I, for one, would not want to hunt with a PH that would let me shoot such an immature animal.

PH should have said no or charged a "cull" price.

@Rhinoster Hoek Safaris , looks like a pile of pretty immature bulls..some good ones....but still no chance that bull was 5 years old.

Mean growth rate for kudu in the eastern Cape

Age Body Mass (kg) Horn Length

Cow Bull (cm) (inch) Turns

0 months 13 13 0 0 0

6 months 50 60 0,5-8 3 ¼

1 year 90 95 4-45 2-17 ½

1,5 year 105 120 20-65 7-25 1¼

2 year 120 140 50-80 19-31 1½

2,5 year 125 160 65-90 25-35 2

3 year 130 165 85-100 33-39 2¼

4 year 140 180 105-115 41-45 2½

5 year 145 205 115-125 45-49 3

6 year 138 220 125-132 49-51 3¼

7 year 130 240 129-135 50-53 3½

8 year 130 250 132-137 51-54 3½

9 year 128 260 135-139 53-54 3½

10 year 125 265 136-140 53-55 3½

Basically a 5 year old bull in the Eastern Cape should be roughly 49 inches. A kudu reaches sexual maturity at 3 years but only is accepted by cows when he is roughly 5 years old.

I am not taking any sides on this, i am very glad dobber had a great experience on his first trip to africa! And i believe him when he say he is happy with the Kudu!
Here is my opinion though, i have had a client shot a young imature kudu this year, he booked a cull hunt and wanted to shoot a kudu ( cull kudu is normaly female in my opinion as any kudu male has the ability to become a trophy) well on this hunt the client wanted a kudu bull, i told him upfront it is going to be a imature bull as i had bull in mind on a specific ranch!! He was happy with that as it was his first time in africa as well!!
The hunt went on and he got his cull kudu male!! Later at the taxidermy after seeing some of the mounts he told me size does make a difference... He is still happy with his first kudu and the skull mount will always have a special place in his house but he now has a perspective of what one can expect!! Well he is booked for next year and hopefulle we can vet him a trophy bull!!
I guess what i am saying is tbe bull dobber shot is definitely not a trophy animal and should not be charged as one!! The PH/ Outfitter should be able to tell the client this on his trip! Dobber will always see this kudu as a trophy because it was his first ever grey ghost, and he worker pretty darn hard for it by the looks of his legs!!! But still the animal in comparison to what is available is a cull animal!!
Just my 2 cents