Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

siml · Jul 31, 2015

Bossie, all I can say thank you...lets hope " real african hunters" back us up....

Hogpatrol · Jul 31, 2015

Presumption of Innocence
A principle that requires the government to prove the guilt of a criminal defendant and relieves the defendant of any burden to prove his or her innocence.

I find it appalling that so many are wont to throw this to the winds of public opinion.

Wheels · Jul 31, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Hunter-of-Cecil-the-lion-I-did-nothing-wrong-20150731

shared via News24

We had obtained the permit for bow hunting, we had obtained the permit for the lion from the council," he said, speaking from Bulawayo.

"We had done everything above board. quote attributed to Theo Bronkhorst in the News24 piece.

Very confusing statement concerning the word "council". Is he claiming to be on a RDC/CAMPFIRE area?

Is he in someway claiming he has "quota transfer" paperwork in order?

This is more confusing and interesting all the time.

I am hooked on the new soap opera called "Cecil".

JES Adventures · Jul 31, 2015

Saul said:
I know a lot of you guys are very open about hunting in your personal lives, but I think this is a prime example about why you must be very careful in today's age about associating yourself with hunting if it could have negative repercussions on your business.

Wheels · Jul 31, 2015

Hogpatrol said:
Presumption of Innocence
A principle that requires the government to prove the guilt of a criminal defendant and relieves the defendant of any burden to prove his or her innocence.

I find it appalling that so many are wont to throw this to the winds of public opinion.

Does it kind of remind you of the Salem Witch Trials?

JES Adventures · Jul 31, 2015

I'm at a point in my life that I've been Blessed enough to amply provide for my family regardless of what people think of me. Basically I can honestly and gladly refuse to do business with people that don't respect my personal lifestyle. Some of my truest and best friends were met sharing a campfire talking about the past, present and future of hunting on five continents. I'll never run or hide from who I am and what I've done as a sportsman and conservationist.

The purpose of my post is to hopefully help my peers as members of the oldest and greatest sporting fraternity not to succumb to the pressures of modern day media and its cohorts.

Genisis 1: 26

Saul said:
I know a lot of you guys are very open about hunting in your personal lives, but I think this is a prime example about why you must be very careful in today's age about associating yourself with hunting if it could have negative repercussions on your business.

I'm

Hogpatrol · Jul 31, 2015

Wheels said:
Does it kind of remind you of the Salem Witch Trials?

Worse than that, more like a lynch mob.

ScottG · Jul 31, 2015

They keep passing lies and misinformation. They really have no clue except the cute little lion is dead.

Pondoro · Jul 31, 2015

All I will say is that Ivan Carter has shot himself in the foot..

Big5 · Jul 31, 2015

WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE . . . Forgive me for varying a little to add something I think will add to the overall arrogance and hypocrisy I see surrounding this situation.
____________________________________________
According to an article by Nicholas Reilly for Metro.co.uk (dated Tuesday 17 Feb 2015) among various other animals, including elephant, there was a “trophy lion” donated to Mugabe’s 91st birthday celebration in February of this year. Partygoers at the birthday event are set to dine on the unusual delicacy at the lavish bash

The donor, Tendai Musasa, confirmed to the Zimbabwe Chronicle that he donated game meat and a 'lion trophy' worth £78,000 to the event. Specifically, Musasa provided a total of two buffaloes, two elephants, 'a lion', five impalas and two sables.

Describing preparations for the event, he added that the animals would be slaughtered a few days before the birthday bash, and stored by a local hotel.
______________________________________________

So, a ‘trophy lion’ was slaughtered for Mugabe’s recent birthday celebration in February of this year. Where was the outrage? This ‘trophy lion’ slaughter occurred only a few months before the incident that is causing the present media circus . . . . oh no, what if this trophy lion was related to Cecil?

And why no outrage from Zimbabwe’s environment minister, Oppah Muchinguri, who is asking for Palmer to be extradited from the U.S.? Could it be that the Zimbabwe government, despot leader Robert Mugabe and minister Oppah Muchinguri are only playing to the media for show?

Obviously the slaughter of a "trophy lion" (not my words) for a lavish birthday bash is okay with Zimbabwe's 'environment minister' and receives no significant media attention, but a lion killed by a hunter somehow deserves a media feeding frenzy even before the investigation is complete and all facts are in. Remarkable.

Royal27 · Jul 31, 2015

Well... I went back and. re-read the Ivan Carter post. I'll admit I read quickly the first time and what he was really saying didn't sink in. He jumped the gun. I don't care if he does talk to people"in the know" as he put it. His damnation before the facts come out is no different than the anti-hunters.

I had "liked" the post on FB. Oops.... At least you can remove a like and add a comment....

Big5 · Jul 31, 2015

I too think he jumped the gun. Carter has a big podium and a large hunting audience. I believe he had a responsibility to use his influence to tell that large audience to remain calm and wait for the conclusion of things.

Wheels · Jul 31, 2015

Big5 said:
WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE . . . Forgive me for varying a little to add something I think will add to the overall arrogance and hypocrisy I see surrounding this situation.
____________________________________________
According to an article by Nicholas Reilly for Metro.co.uk (dated Tuesday 17 Feb 2015) among various other animals, including elephant, there was a “trophy lion” donated to Mugabe’s 91st birthday celebration in February of this year. Partygoers at the birthday event are set to dine on the unusual delicacy at the lavish bash

The donor, Tendai Musasa, confirmed to the Zimbabwe Chronicle that he donated game meat and a 'lion trophy' worth £78,000 to the event. Specifically, Musasa provided a total of two buffaloes, two elephants, 'a lion', five impalas and two sables.

Describing preparations for the event, he added that the animals would be slaughtered a few days before the birthday bash, and stored by a local hotel.
______________________________________________

So, a ‘trophy lion’ was slaughtered for Mugabe’s recent birthday celebration in February of this year. Where was the outrage? This ‘trophy lion’ slaughter occurred only a few months before the incident that is causing the present media circus . . . . oh no, what if this trophy lion was related to Cecil?

And why no outrage from Zimbabwe’s environment minister, Oppah Muchinguri, who is asking for Palmer to be extradited from the U.S.? Could it be that the Zimbabwe government, despot leader Robert Mugabe and minister Oppah Muchinguri are only playing to the media for show?

Obviously the slaughter of a "trophy lion" (not my words) for a lavish birthday bash is okay with Zimbabwe's 'environment minister' and receives no significant media attention, but a lion killed by a hunter somehow deserves a media feeding frenzy even before the investigation is complete and all facts are in. Remarkable.

Could it be that Johnny Rodriguez with Zimbabwe Conservation Taskforce serves at the mercy of Mugabe/Zanu PF while Walter Palmer is any easy target?

Wheels · Jul 31, 2015

Big5 said:
I too think he jumped the gun. Carter has a big podium and a large hunting audience. I believe he had a responsibility to use his influence to tell that large audience to remain calm and wait for the conclusion of things.

Didn't SCI excommunicate Palmer as well? Would this be jumping the gun? Just when you need an organization the most, they drop you before all the facts are in.

After being a member of SCI since the 70's, I let my membership lapse last year do to other reasons. If I was still a member, I would have canceled my membership effective the day they canceled Palmers.

If SCI wanted to wait till all the facts were in and cancel the membership, that would be fine. In the meantime have some backbone and stand up for a member until the facts are in.

Royal27 · Jul 31, 2015

Wheels said:
n't SCI excommunicate Palmer as well? Would this be jumping the gun? Just

No. They suspended him pending the outcome, but didn't cancel his membership. That's a good point though and I'm not sure whether to say they took the easy way out, or not.... If they had cancelled him that would be wrong for sure, but to suspend pending the facts?

Wheels · Jul 31, 2015

Royal27 said:
No. They suspended him pending the outcome, but didn't cancel his membership. That's a good point though and I'm not sure whether to say they took the easy way out, or not.... If they had cancelled him that would be wrong for sure, but to suspend pending the facts?

Royal,

Thanks for the clarification.

I still think they should come out with a statement of waiting for the facts to come in before rendering a judgement.

RickB · Jul 31, 2015

Now having been the one who posted the FB post of Mr Carter. I am in no way condoning what he said. I always speak of waiting for ALL of the facts to come out. To many people put the cart before the horse so to speak. I to feel as though he jumped the gun in his conviction of this hunter in public. But, are we privy to what Mr Carter knows? Are we convicting Mr Carter without knowing with whom he got his info from?

Bottom line is, this is long from over. It has no doubt giving the hunting world a black eye no matter the outcome of this situation.

norfolk shooter · Jul 31, 2015

It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Lord Tennyson

I only write this as its at time like this we all need to stick together and keep doing what we do. The times we live in now are different and society looks at hunters with not the respect we once had but with hate. If only they knew the other side the conservation hunting funds and the people the meat feeds. But then again we all know this.

Big5 · Jul 31, 2015

Several years ago there was a case involving a lion fondly known as Leonardo that very closely paralleled the situation with Cecil.

It's about the criminal charges that were laid against PH Keith Wright following a high-profile investigation by the Namibia Ministry of Environment and Tourism into the killing of the collared lion known as 'Leonardo' . . . . as with 'Cecil', give the animal a cuddly pet name and a frenzy can be more easily incited.

As a result of the various allegations Keith and his family received numerous threats much like what is now happening with Palmer. Keith is a personal friend of mine so even though the 'reports' of impropriety seemed insurmountable on the surface I decided to contact him for his side of the story. Well, guess what? It turned out that Keith had all required authorization and paperwork in order contrary to all claims otherwise.

Keith later forwarded copies of paperwork that exonerated him from any wrongdoing. An excerpt from the NAPHA paperwork reads as follows;

"After the DC hearing on the 27 September 2010 and the evidence presented, it seems that all legal requirements were met to hunt the lion. We regret that such a public outcry was initiated, based on apparent wrong assumptions/evidence.

The Exco of NAPHA thus has decided to stand by you and support you in your efforts to publicly rectify the apparent wrong doing, i.e. if you so desire we will be present at your indicated press conference."

Of course the entire matter was subsequently dropped with many apologies following. Unfortunately, the damage to Keith's reputation and business had already been done and most of the critics didn't stick around long enough to view the final outcome. What a shame. Jumping the gun on such matters can have consequences.

If interested you can read the thread here on an old AH forum topic. You can also see how some people wanted heads to roll, facts be damned. Fortunately it got nipped in the bud fairly quickly on this site.

Lion Killer to Be Charged in Namibia
Discussion in 'News & Announcements' - May 12, 2010

AfricaHunting.com · Jul 31, 2015

Big5 said:
Several years ago there was a case involving a lion fondly known as Leonardo that very closely paralleled the situation with Cecil.
….
If interested you can read the thread here on an old AH forum topic. You can also see how some people wanted heads to roll, facts be damned. Fortunately it got nipped in the bud fairly quickly on this site.

Lion Killer to Be Charged in Namibia
Discussion in 'News & Announcements' - May 12, 2010

Thank you @Big5.

Here is the thread that @Big5 is referring to: Lion Killer to Be Charged in Namibia: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/lion-killer-to-be-charged-in-namibia.2877/

Interesting point from @Ole Bally in the Leonardo thread:

Ole Bally said:
Jerome, it has become common practice for 'anti hunting groups' to collar trophy sized animals especially Elephant when they are in 'photographic' areas with the purpose of 'protecting them' from trophy hunters.
Collaring animals for real research does not preclude them from being trophy harvested ( or dying naturally or being poached ). It actually forms part of the research. It has become a sort of tool used to discredit legal activities as is the case here. Would the hue and cry have been as much of it hadn't been collared I wonder?

Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

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