Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

Vevew said:

Trophy hunters really need to explain this mindset. Where is the appeal?

Click to expand...

I thought I did an "ok" job of explaining the mindset in my post earlier in this thread. I enjoy hunting in the same way people enjoy tourism, its about the experience and the memories rather then any physical reward.

"where is the appeal?" im afraid that would really be impossible to explain to someone who isn't interested. that's like me asking a person why they enjoy modern art. no amount of explaining is going to get me to understand what people see in modern art. you either like it or you don't, but if you don't like it that doesn't mean you should try to prevent others from enjoying it.

-matt

Vevew how can you say they don't have money if you told us yesterday that there are funds being raised for conservation by the antis.

Now I will ask you again as I have asked you before.

Where has that money gone to?

I can only wonder how people who have never set foot in Africa can judge and form opinions. Maybe they are right,those who stand for nothing will fall for everything.
I can 100% guarantee the following. If the Doc is proven to be innocent and being caught out by a scam not one Anti is going to go on social media and apologize,not one will contribute money to fix the damage they have done to his reputation and not one will even think of what his family and himself endured. No backbone,the weak will always go for a soft target because they lack backbone. These same Anti hunting folks will call for his head,want him and his children killed in ways that I have not even thought of,but they call themselves civilized. Yet tomorrow they will oppose the death penalty for a mass murderer. The disease is not trophy hunting,the disease is the crumbling of society's values and the rotten core that need something to believe on because the have no self believe.

You may think you are possing a point or contributing to this discussion by trying to make us rethink our position,but when people with backbone know their believes all you do is reinforce their standpoint. I for one am done with this discussion,your contribution has been weighed and found lacking in substance.


A few things for you to ponder:

lbgsafaris said:

Vevew how can you say they don't have money if you told us yesterday that there are funds being raised for conservation by the antis.

Where has that money gone to?

Click to expand...

Do you want me to copy & paste text from those conservation organizations' websites?
The place where I donate regularly is ALTA conservation. You can read about their 2015 projects here.
I haven't done much research on reputable organizations that take donations for the African lion's conservation.
I brought up the moral issue, and you simply ignored it, and turned into a question about money.

But matt85 already answered my question; "It's impossible to explain.".

When it comes to explaining trophy hunting to the public, this is how I explain it:

Many people like hunting, it is an instinct and a primal connection to nature of which killing is only one part. A trophy is a memento of that intense experience. Those with enough money then 'collect' these experiences and trophies.

Many people like drinking wine. For whatever reason. Those with enough money then 'collect' bottles that they pay millions for.

If you consider one form of 'collecting' abnormal, then please apply it across the board.

'Yes, but you don't have to kill a bottle of wine'. Well, killing is part of hunting, and hunting happens.

This is a post from Ivan Carter on FB 10 minutes ago.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=868091529947154&id=173228692766778

Can't copy and paste from my phone, but I trust his sources more than anyone else. Not good for the hunter and the outfitter.

Ivan's post..

CECIL THE LION
I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .

1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period .
2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit.
3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar.
4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution….
5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident.
6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.

My thoughts…
I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.

There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...

A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –

To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

Black Lechwe said:

If you consider one form of 'collecting' abnormal, then please apply it across the board.

'Yes, but you don't have to kill a bottle of wine'. Well, killing is part of hunting, and hunting happens.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that human head hunting should still be legal?

hunthardsafaris said:

A few things for you to ponder:View attachment 45909 View attachment 45910

Click to expand...

There's not much to ponder over those images. One appalling thing is more easily preventable than the other. And people shouldn't stop caring about one appalling thing, just because another appalling thing is happening at the same time.

Vevew said:

Are you saying that human head hunting should still be legal?

Click to expand...

ok this has gotten stupid...


-matt

matt85 said:

ok this has gotten stupid...
-matt

Click to expand...

Haha, Or maybe his argument was just silly. I hope he will alter it.

Vevew, "Are you saying that human head hunting should still be legal?"

Yes. Especially when vegetarians are the only herbivore species left on the planet!

Jokes aside, I don't want to really go into the morals around hunting, because that's a rather subjective topic.

I think many thinking hunters DO feel uncomfortable with the concept of killing another being. Hunting is part of our human heritage. We all inherit a package of instincts built into our genetic makeup. Some experience them stronger than others. Others rationalise against expressing it. Yet more have just never had exposure to hunting. Some have never even been exposed to nature, period.

I think endless arguments about the conservation benefits of hunting are a bit beside the point. The people have with us is why do we kill? Societies that are more connected with nature and aware of the facts of life (and death) are more accepting of hunting as a normal human pursuit.

How do we as hunters get the understanding of the urban, technological, disconnected (from nature) masses?

Vevew said:

Are you saying that human head hunting should still be legal?

Click to expand...

I had understood your point previously to be that trophy hunters need to do a better job at public relations. The problem being that Joe public does not understand the sport. However, with this quote you have lost me. I don't get the connection at all.

There have been many attempts to convey the fact that the outdoor experience is the reason to hunt and the trophy is the momento of that experience. Secondly, if the outdoor experience is not understood, then the economic factors should be.

This argument now reminds me of one drunken evening when a buddy of mine and I stayed up arguing about whether Valerie Bertinelli broke up Van Halen. In the end all that could be said was probably said and it was time for bed.

@Vevew

out of the 3 posts I put in this thread, THAT is the post you finally dignify with a response?!

welcome to my ignore list. hopefully the moderators of this forum will see fit to remove you.

-matt

Interesting.... I just scanned through some of the comments on this article and they weren't nearly as negative as I was expecting. It does appear that some of the middle is getting tired of the immediate conviction in this case, as well as putting this one lion up on a pedestal.



http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/29/sma...dentist-palmer/index.html?iid=surge-stack-dom

Indicted, Tried, and PROVEN Guilty. Oh wait a minute. That hasn't happened. Amazing what a few PETA plants and trolls can do. For me, innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Pheroze said:

However, with this quote you have lost me. I don't get the connection at all.

Click to expand...

Black Lechwe said "If you consider one form of 'collecting' abnormal, then please apply it across the board.".
He thinks that either every form of collecting should be seen as morally wrong, or non should (i.e. treat every collection hobby equally.)

Then I tried to think of the most abhorrent form of collecting possible; human heads. Human head hunting was part of some ancient cultures in the Amazon.

If collecting animal heads and placing them on the wall is not a moral issue, then I guess placing human heads on the wall is equally normal. Would you see it as weird if someone collected and displayed human heads in a similar fashion?

Pheroze said:

This argument now reminds me of one drunken evening when a buddy of mine and I stayed up arguing about whether Valerie Bertinelli broke up Van Halen. In the end all that could be said was probably said and it was time for bed.

Click to expand...

I agree. Neither side understands the other.

Vevew said:

They don't have the money. it's as simple as that.
Well, most of them don't have; Leonardo DiCaprio donated $3 million to tiger conservation.

As I said, even if trophy hunting funds conservation it's still considered morally bankrupt behavior by many.

If trophy hunters can't explain it to the general public, then they should expect similar backlashes in the future. And the controversy will continue.

Click to expand...

I think the word trophy is what causes alot of the problems. Hunting is a way of life you either like or dont. When hunting is done right older animals are taken and looked at as a trophy because they are the hardest to hunt. I am guessing to many non hunters the word trophy looks like that is the only reason we hunt but is so far from the truth.
There is alot of times when a bigger or what would be a better trophy is past on to harvest the older animal. Very hard to explain unless people are going to keep an opened mind and want to learn.

It is very hard for non hunters to understand how the hunting of a few animals helps all animals. They get stuck on the fact of any being killed is bad no matter what. I think if people would start looking at say the 50 lions or 100 elephant that get hunt save 1000's from being poached with the money the legal animals bring in. Beside the money the hunting brings in it also brings the right people who can fight the poachers at there own game. Sitting at a desk hating hunters donating a few bucks will not stop poachers.

So the non hunters or anti hunter may want to start thinking what is worse for animals. The hunter who takes a few older animal to help all animals. Who normally eats or gives away the meat to the poor people. Uses the hide and must all parts in some form. Yes he takes pictures with a harvested animal may even have the animal mounted to display in his house. That is all more out of the respect for the animal and show the worth of the animal as it is not just killed and left to rot.

OR

they can keep letting the poacher do the job hunters do but were no money or value is give back to help all animals. Were animals are hunted with snares or weapons they are not always up to the job of taking the animals quickly. Some just getting away rotting away or dying a slow painful death. Then the ones the poacher do kill they cut of a few parts that they sell for money and the rest rots away helping no one.

If some of the people who really think they want what is best for animal then they best start looking at all the facts. Because us hunters dont hide what we do they pick us to go after. They may want to look at what is hiding in the shadows and killing way more then hunters ever will and that is poachers.

Vevew there is no further need for me to post any further on this matter.
You have proven over and over again that you are an Anti and that you don't care for the fatcs that are being laid you to you.

I know where the hard earned money of people goes who donate to the anti hunting campaign and to those so called animal rights groups. It goes straight into the pockets of the administration.
Very little if any goes where they say it goes.

The problem I see with this whole issue is that it has polarised the hunters and non-hunters. Both sides make valuable contributions to conservation. Both sides have bad apples that tarnish the image of the rest.

Why are hunters not coming out strongly about one of these 'animal lovers' making a TV show about harassing wild lions as part of 'becoming part of the pride'? Perhaps because we more than anybody else know how that will end...

Are there any PH's or outfitters on here that can 100% explain if night hunting is legal there in Zimbabwe? Is it legal as long as it states it on the tag/ license?