Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

Hank2211 said:

This is an area where many - if not all - of us will have strong views one way or the other (mine are aligned with Mr. Mostert's, for what it's worth).

BUT I'd strongly suggest we restrict ourselves to African hunting issues on this site. Let's not rise to Vevew's bait.

Thanks

Click to expand...

You have a very valid point.

Vevew said:

I got the information from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion
A quick Google search didn't bring up anything too concrete about the issue

Click to expand...

Vevew
There is your problem.
Google and Wikipedia.

You don't have facts, you come here and post something you searched on the internet. Who wrote that stuff?
Certainly not someone who is in the field everyday!
People get paid to write a bunch of stuff and 99.9% BS just to keep a website running.

Stop believing the BS people post on the internet, please, you just assume its true and I am sure you should know what assume means.

Hank2211 said:

This is an area where many - if not all - of us will have strong views one way or the other (mine are aligned with Mr. Mostert's, for what it's worth).

BUT I'd strongly suggest we restrict ourselves to African hunting issues on this site. Let's not rise to Vevew's bait.

Thanks

Click to expand...

Well, views such as the one vevew subscribe to, and comments made on it, do separate the wheat from the chaff, don't they?

lbgsafaris said:

Vevew
There is your problem.
Google and Wikipedia.
...
Stop believing the BS people post on the internet, please, you just assume its true and I am sure you should know what assume means.

Click to expand...

Is the IUCN Red List also BS?
Oh look! The Wikipedia article actually links there.

I said that African Lion is a threatened species.
You said it isn't.
I posted a source.
You said the source is BS.
I gave a link to IUCN Red List (the world's most comprehensive inventory of the global conservation status of biological species), which says the same thing; African Lion is threatened.

Either there is a world-wide conspiracy against trophy hunters, or you are wrong, buddy.

I am just going to take another slow sip of beer, and stop feeding this Muppet.

I would not waste my time even attempting to argue with this guy. It is a losing battle as he would not have the mental capacity to change his mind even when confronted with concrete facts. A long time ago, someone said, something to the effect that it is impossible to use facts to change someone with such prejudice, it was not reasoned into him, and can not be reasoned out of him. Therefore, he is not worth our time. He is a troll and should be removed as he is the antithesis to the purpose of this site.

Billcollector said:

It is a losing battle as he would not have the mental capacity to change his mind even when confronted with concrete facts.
...
He is a troll and should be removed as he is the antithesis to the purpose of this site.

Click to expand...

Thanks for insulting me. Did you even read my previous posts? I changed my mind on the subject of can hunting be beneficial, and I admitted it.
Please read the thread before posting. Do you have the mental capacity?

This site just seems very hostile against anyone who has an opposing view. It really is meant to be an echo-chamber.

Vevew said:

Thanks for insulting me. Did you even read my previous posts? I changed my mind on the subject of can hunting be beneficial, and I admitted it.
Please read the thread before posting. Do you have the mental capacity?

This site just seems very hostile against anyone who has an opposing view. It really is meant to be an echo-chamber.

Click to expand...

Now hang on Vevew.

I defended your right to be here early on and still think that as long as you stick to the facts and don't begin to tell us what is right and wrong about hunting, that you should stay. Here is where folks get defensive though. We shouldn't have to prove out every fact to you and argue every point of hunting in general. This is a HUNTING forum, of course we are defensive to hunting and our beliefs. What else do you expect?

Here is my point. As a general rule you've been treated extremely well, especially considering that IMO you've come across as condescending at times within this conversation. Try this - go to lionaid on FB and post that you think lion hunting has to be part of the plan in order to save the lion as a wild species. Then come back and let us know who was hostile.

Vevew the above picture is of a Pangolin.

I am 100% sure you have never seen one in the wild and I wonder if you ever knew there is an animal called a Pangolin and I even think you will never be so lucky to see one either. I have been spending hours, days and months for the past 14 years in the bush and I have only ever seen two in the wild myself. One was when I was about 12 Years old and the other one was two years ago when I guided Tokkie and Tinny on a Lion hunt in the Kalahari, YES a Lion hunt.

Now each year Poachers kill hundreds of these animals and illegally sell them to the Chinese black market.
The meat can sell for as much as $500.00 per kilo.

In a South African the chief of a village will send young boy to go and find a Pangolin for him to eat so he can have more power to lead his people. (I am referring to the Venda and Shangaan tribes in Limpopo) I know this as a fact because I grew up with these people and I can speak their language just as well as they do.

What has the Anti Hunting organizations contributed to protect Pangolines in Africa?
I have not seen or heard any anti hunter say anything.

Why?? Because it's not a majestic black maned Lion? Or is it's to ugly to even bother protecting.

Vevew said:

Thanks for insulting me. Did you even read my previous posts? I changed my mind on the subject of can hunting be beneficial, and I admitted it.
Please read the thread before posting. Do you have the mental capacity?

This site just seems very hostile against anyone who has an opposing view. It really is meant to be an echo-chamber.

Click to expand...

Insulting you? Just stating facts. This is a hunting forum. You are a troll. The purpose of this forum is not to entertain you as you attempt to incite the members of this forum. There are many alternative social media and rant sites for you to enjoy and fulfill your psychic requirements and needs. This is just not one of them. Bye!

Vevew said:

Is the IUCN Red List also BS?
Oh look! The Wikipedia article actually links there.

I said that African Lion is a threatened species.
You said it isn't.
I posted a source.
You said the source is BS.
I gave a link to IUCN Red List (the world's most comprehensive inventory of the global conservation status of biological species), which says the same thing; African Lion is threatened.

Either there is a world-wide conspiracy against trophy hunters, or you are wrong, buddy.

Click to expand...

Let's make sure we have the facts Vervew. You state things as facts, but it seems they aren't.

Look at IUCN Red List 2015.2, which I think is the most recent. It lists the African Lion as "Vulnerable", not "Threatened". Vulnerable isn't great, so you actually have to read on. What is clear is that in southern Africa, populations are increasing, while they are decreasing elsewhere. The population in Southern Africa is not in trouble, while that in western Africa is, for example. There are many subtleties to these things which actually require you to look a little further than just a headline.

It also says this:

Trophy hunting is carried out in a number of sub-Saharan African countries and is considered an important management tool for providing financial resource for Lion conservation for both governments and local communities. However, there is concern that current management regimes can lead to unsustainable offtakes (Packer et al. 2006). A sustainable offtake level of one male lion per 2,000 km² has been recommended (Packer et al. 2011), but offtake is higher in many areas, which suggests that it is potentially a threat (Lindsey et al. 2013b). Trophy hunting can thus be a tool for conservation but also a threat, depending on how it is regulated and managed (Whitman et al. 2004, Loveridge et al. 2007, Packer et al. 2011).

Notice that it says that trophy hunting can be a "tool for management" if regulated and managed. I would suggest there is not a member on this site who would be against properly regulated and managed hunting.

So as I see it, you are wrong on just about all counts.

Dam, I need a bigger beer!!!

lbgsafaris said:

View attachment 45884
Vevew the above picture is of a Pangolin.

I am 100% sure you have never seen one in the wild and I wonder if you ever knew there is an animal called a Pangolin and I even think you will never be so lucky to see one either. I have been spending hours, days and months for the past 14 years in the bush and I have only ever seen two in the wild myself. One was when I was about 12 Years old and the other one was two years ago when I guided Tokkie and Tinny on a Lion hunt in the Kalahari, YES a Lion hunt.

Now each year Poachers kill hundreds of these animals and illegally sell them to the Chinese black market.
The meat can sell for as much as $500.00 per kilo.

In a South African the chief of a village will send young boy to go and find a Pangolin for him to eat so he can have more power to lead his people. (I am referring to the Venda and Shangaan tribes in Limpopo) I know this as a fact because I grew up with these people and I can speak their language just as well as they do.

What has the Anti Hunting organizations contributed to protect Pangolines in Africa?
I have not seen or heard any anti hunter say anything.

Why?? Because it's not a majestic black maned Lion? Or is it's to ugly to even bother protecting.

Click to expand...

I saw one! I saw one! Hunting on Wintereshoek Gamagara property a few years ago we saw one late one day. Our PH, John Tinley, whooped, stopped the truck, and we all got out. We picked the thing up, curled into a ball - I have the video! After admiring the creature - it is quite unusual - and the scales are truly hard - and a discussion of its fate, we let it go along its way, unharmed. Oddly enough, we were all cheered up by the encounter!

By the way, I'm told it's good luck to see a pangolin - and the hunt did go well . . . !

TMS said:

Dam, I need a bigger beer!!!

Click to expand...

Hank2211 said:

Let's make sure we have the facts Vervew. You state things as facts, but it seems they aren't.

Look at IUCN Red List 2015.2, which I think is the most recent. It lists the African Lion as "Vulnerable", not "Threatened". Vulnerable isn't great, so you actually have to read on. What is clear is that in southern Africa, populations are increasing, while they are decreasing elsewhere. The population in Southern Africa is not in trouble, while that in western Africa is, for example. There are many subtleties to these things which actually require you to look a little further than just a headline.
...
So as I see it, you are wrong on just about all counts.

Click to expand...

(Source)
Now I'm expecting you to say that the source is BS.

I like how lbgsafaris just went on to change subject.
Yes, I have heard about the Pangolin. There have been campaigns to raise awareness about the species. And the Zoological Society of London (ZSL) takes donations. You can't expect everyone to care about every species. What have you done to save coral reefs?

Stop feeding it!!! It can not get full.

Billcollector said:

Stop feeding it!!! It can not get full.

Click to expand...

You clearly have nothing to add to the discussion.

Ibgsafaris, your post about the pangolin is about as spot on as I've ever heard!!!
Well said,
Clark Gaynor Sr.

Adrian said:

The article I read with the above picture stated this wasn't the PH or lion that is the centre of the furore.
This is another lion from another hunt that the media have managed to find and publish of the hunter. They also managed to find an him with an elk and a leopard.

Click to expand...

No wonder he didn't look the same.

I retract my statement.

Vevew said :You can't expect everyone to care about every species. What have you done to save coral reefs?

Vevew it was not about changing the subject, it's about making you realize there are other animals that needs more protiction than a pet Lion.
We as hunters see the broader picture. We love and care for all animal equality.

Where has the money gone that the ZSL has raised?

What have I done to protect coral reefs?
I spent 10 days in Sudwana bay last year with my family. Paying an entrance fee each day to enter the park. I paid for fishing licenses to catch and release.

That is what I have done to protect coral reefs.
In the 10 days we spent our money in a National park where all wildlife and reefs are protected.