I am going to be building a double rifle as my final project in my machining school (if I can find a blasted blueprint for a boxlock action, if anybody knows a source please tell), but I am having a hard time choosing a caliber. Originally I was going to use the .375 H&H Mag. as my cartridge, but according to Ellis Browns book, it is a high intensity round as far as pressure goes. My other two options I am looking at are the 450/400 NE 3", and the 450 NE. I wish to have answers broken up into categories, such as strengths and weaknesses of each, ease of, cost of, and availability of, reloading and reloading supplies, recoil (I am going to be putting LimbSavers AirTech pad on this so it should take the recoil down a bit), and any other info that would help. Any help on this is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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What caliber and the pros and cons of each
- Thread starter TSR
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shuter
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I don't own a double, but I have a .450/.400 3" NE Ruger #1; and if I were to buy a double, I think it'd be in the same caliber. Effective for anything that walks, crawls, or flies, and relatively comfortable to shoot in a 10 lb. rifle. Plus readily available ammo and components.
AkMike
AH fanatic
I'd go for either the 450/400 or the 450 NE. Mr. Brown knows what he's talking about. Keep it low and slow for doubles.
You'll probably need to reverse engineer a set of plans for a boxlock. I'd go with a JP Sauer in 16 ga for the 450/400 and a 12 ga for the 450. ( I happen to have had one thus converted for many years.)
You'll probably need to reverse engineer a set of plans for a boxlock. I'd go with a JP Sauer in 16 ga for the 450/400 and a 12 ga for the 450. ( I happen to have had one thus converted for many years.)
What is the differance in recoil between the 450/400 NE and the 450 NE? Does the 450/400 NE qualify as a charge stopper? How much more powerfull than the .375 h&h is the 450/400 NE? (Last two questions are pure curiosity) Thanks for the replies and info.
Velo Dog
AH legend
.450/400 - 3" NE is my vote.
Difference in recoil between that and the .450 NE is quite noticeable.
Although I would not call the .450's recoil excessive in an 11 lb rifle, the .400's recoil in an 11 lb rifle is almost like being kissed by a beautiful woman.
Difference in recoil between that and the .450 NE is quite noticeable.
Although I would not call the .450's recoil excessive in an 11 lb rifle, the .400's recoil in an 11 lb rifle is almost like being kissed by a beautiful woman.
greyfox
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Are you in the States? 1st (Off topic) check with the BATF, you have to have a form (200 I think?) to build, it's a pre-approval thing not after the fact. I would hate to see you get into trouble with them.
2nd, Get a copy of Craig Boddington's book, Safari Rifles 2. there's alot of info in there.
2nd, Get a copy of Craig Boddington's book, Safari Rifles 2. there's alot of info in there.
greyfox
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I stand corrected:
9. May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for resale? Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18 U.S.C. § 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105).
9. May I lawfully make a firearm for my own personal use, provided it is not being made for resale? Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer’s license under the GCA provided they are not for sale or distribution and the maker is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as set forth in regulations in 27 C.F.R. 478.39. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State, or local government agency (18 U.S.C. § 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. § 5822; 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105).
IdaRam
AH legend
I salute your ambition @TSR that is quite an undertaking. Should be an excellent learning experience in many ways. I hope you will post photos not only of the finished product but along the way as well.
By the way, I voted for the 450/400. It just seems like the right thing to do
I don't believe the 450/400 is generally considered a charge stopper.
By the way, I voted for the 450/400. It just seems like the right thing to do
In very general terms I believe the 2 are somewhat comparable (450/400 & 375 H&H). 450/400 = 400 gr bullet 2150 fps & 375H&H = 300 gr bullet 2400 fps traditional velocities. Slight step up for the 450/400.
I don't believe the 450/400 is generally considered a charge stopper.
matt85
AH legend
a slight correction, you have the the 450 NE listed as a 3" cartridge when its actually a 3.25" cartridge. not meaning to nitpick just wanting to make sure you have the correct name for the correct cartridge. if their is a 450 NE 3" that i dont know about then i apolagize for the correction.
my first vote goes for the 450 NE 3.25" and my second vote goes for the 450/400 NE 3". between the two, the 450 NE 3.25" would be considered a stopping cartridge with a 480gr .458" bullet at roughly 2100 fps. the 450/400 NE 3" delivers a 400gr .410" bullet at around 2050fps which makes it the least powerful dangerous game cartridge in the entire dangerous game line up. however both cartridges are considered suitable for thick skinned dangerous game.
in my opinion the recoil of all three cartridges is fairly mild. the 450 NE 3.25" will have the most but its hardly something to concern yourself with.
i dont consider the 375 H&H to be sutable for a double rifle.
-matt
my first vote goes for the 450 NE 3.25" and my second vote goes for the 450/400 NE 3". between the two, the 450 NE 3.25" would be considered a stopping cartridge with a 480gr .458" bullet at roughly 2100 fps. the 450/400 NE 3" delivers a 400gr .410" bullet at around 2050fps which makes it the least powerful dangerous game cartridge in the entire dangerous game line up. however both cartridges are considered suitable for thick skinned dangerous game.
in my opinion the recoil of all three cartridges is fairly mild. the 450 NE 3.25" will have the most but its hardly something to concern yourself with.
i dont consider the 375 H&H to be sutable for a double rifle.
-matt
No problem, I appreciate you pointing that out, as I like my information to be as correct as possible. I may go with the 450 NE, as I plan to make the rifle 12 pounds and use the LimbSaver recoil pad. Does anybody use these recoil pads on their big bore rifles? If so, how effective would you say they are? Thanks for the replies, keep them coming!
matt85
AH legend
12 pounds is really too heavy for a 450 NE 3.25". the ideal weight for this cartridge would be around 10.5 to 11 pounds which is the standard weight for most double rifles ranging from 450 to 500.
the recoil pads do help soften the blow to the shoulder. most (almost all) heavy DGR rifles these days employ these pads.
-matt
the recoil pads do help soften the blow to the shoulder. most (almost all) heavy DGR rifles these days employ these pads.
-matt
CTDolan
AH elite
Do a lot of research and talk to people in the know (those who actually know how to build such a beast, properly). Even if you manage to get your hands on an ideal rifle for study, there's so much which will not be made apparent by simply studying/measuring/contemplating an existing piece. Many details of design, and construction, which are super critical to realizing a good result (not to mention, metallurgical matters), are not obvious. This pertains to the making of a rifle which will not go off the face in short order. Building a rifle which handles well, is lively and balanced? That's a whole new level of consideration.
Having formerly been a BATF licensed manufacturer,I did involve myself in double rifle conversions,probably did five .450 NE 3.25",five .450-.400 3" and three .45-70's.I am no longer engaged in the business but can shed some light on the build process and actual use of these guns.
It is basic machine work installing the barrels and getting everything properly aligned which is not hard but making it look correct and nice is not easy.Ellis Brown's book is invaluable and will be very good reference material.I used Huglu SXS new shotguns and they are rugged but need tuning up.I now would suggest using the Charles Daly 500 SXS for the basis,they are a copy of the Browning SXS but have double triggers.Regulation can be challenging but your paying attention to proper installation of components will help greatly.
Hornady making ammo has been a very big boon to the double rifle game and handloading is not difficult.The .450NE is my preferred round and I must admit at the top of my recoil tolerance.The .450-.400 3" would be fine and less in recoil.By the way the .45-70 is very useful and much fun in a double.
I did use one of my .450's in 2013 to take a Cape buffalo with CT Safaris,one shot on the shoulder rendered the beast immobile and a couple more follow ups settled the matter.There can be few thrills better than your first buffalo!
Sincerely,GH
It is basic machine work installing the barrels and getting everything properly aligned which is not hard but making it look correct and nice is not easy.Ellis Brown's book is invaluable and will be very good reference material.I used Huglu SXS new shotguns and they are rugged but need tuning up.I now would suggest using the Charles Daly 500 SXS for the basis,they are a copy of the Browning SXS but have double triggers.Regulation can be challenging but your paying attention to proper installation of components will help greatly.
Hornady making ammo has been a very big boon to the double rifle game and handloading is not difficult.The .450NE is my preferred round and I must admit at the top of my recoil tolerance.The .450-.400 3" would be fine and less in recoil.By the way the .45-70 is very useful and much fun in a double.
I did use one of my .450's in 2013 to take a Cape buffalo with CT Safaris,one shot on the shoulder rendered the beast immobile and a couple more follow ups settled the matter.There can be few thrills better than your first buffalo!
Sincerely,GH
CTDolan
AH elite
You'll need to set the barrels for the appropriate level of convergence when machining the monoblock. This is the first step in the regulating process (the final step of course to adjust the muzzle wedge while firing ammunition, in a STANDING position, from a standing rest).
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. Thank you for all the posts and help. I am not as worried about the recoil at this point. I recently purchased a .300 win mag bolt action that weighs 6.5 pounds (installed the Limbsaver Airtech before even shooting it). I calculated the recoil for that rifle and the ammo I was using and it came out to 36.5 ft-lb's of recoil with a recoil velocity of 19 fps (may be even more depending on how much powder the factory ammo I was shooting is actually loaded with. I think I am going to go with the 450 NE 3 1/4". According to the recoil calculations, in the configuration I am going to have it in ( 13 pound rifle using a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 fps has around 42 ft-lb"s of recoil and a recoil velocity of 14.5). I will still be using the Limbsaver recoil pad on it though.
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