Kudu - Namibia or Limpopo?

Mannlicher said:

Also from Tallyho, Limpopo - 61,5 ´´
Mannlicher

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Nice Kudu Bull, but I don't think it will come close to the length you have given. Still a very nice Kudu and deserves a place on your wall.

So you think I was betrayed ?


Mannlicher

fairgame said:

That Kudu will not break 50 which ever way you stretch it.

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If you think so .....

Mannlicher

Sir,you have not been betrayed, it's a trophy bull no doubt. I have been fortunate enough to take many,many trophy Kudu Bulls in my life, which means that I have looked over many many more. Your Bull by my estimates is not a 61 inch bull, no matter how the tape was held. Once again, a great bull.

isn't that tape in centimetres?

bluey said:

isn't that tape in centimetres?

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Yes indeed, on the other side .....

hunthardsafaris said:

. Your Bull by my estimates is not a 61 inch bull, no matter how the tape was held. .

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There are great experts here. One says that the trophy is under 50´´, the other one blames me and means the measering is a fake. . So it is better not to show photos in this Forum .

Mannlicher, there is nothing wrong the photo of the Bull, except that I do not see a 60+ inch Kudu as you indicated. Your first photo is in all probability one of the nicest Kudu I have seen and could very well be 60+ inches of monster Kudu. The second Bull lacks width (V-between the horns is shallow) it does not have a deep curl and it does not have extrodanary length, which would make up for the lack of the other two attributes. Neither are the horns extraordinary thick. A Kudu has ears that are more or less 12inches in length, do the math.
If your Bull is trully a 60" inch Bull then I am wrong and apologize for that. I just can't see it.
Best regards
Tokkie

Mannlicher said:

There are great experts here. One says that the trophy is under 50´´, the other one blames me and means the measering is a fake. . So it is better not to show photos in this Forum .

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I maybe wrong and it might go 50.

Mannlicher said:

So you think I was betrayed ?
.......
Mannlicher

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Trophy estimation is always interesting to me. Kudu make me crazy.

Could a "mistake" be made with a tape. Sure.
Plastic tape. Cloth tape, tape slipped.. ......
Out and out deception, sure.
I have seen tapes with that start with one or two inches cut off of them.
There are a lot of trophies measured in the field to only later be measured with a metal tape to be much smaller.



A friend of mine has been a taxidermist for 30 plus years. He gets animals in that are measured by the Guide in the field and when they get to his shop they magically shrink. It happens with bears all the time. Stretch a hide you can get a lot more length from it. Told by the guide "You have a seven foot bear." The hunter is thrilled. It was measured nose to rear foot. Not nose to tail.
Who gets screamed at when the 7 foot bear is "switched" for that five foot bear? The taxidermist. Why would the guide lie?
How big is the tip for a 5 foot bear vs a 7 foot bear?
Why would the taxidermist lie?

As an "official" measurer I see it happen all the time on North American species. Hunters measure it themselves and then I put the tape to it and it shrinks. NO wonder it shrinks, they don't measure it properly. The horns did not shrink, just the score.

For estimating purposes pictures are always deceiving. Angles and perspective are great manipulators.

I took the Kudu picture from earlier in the thread and copied three over lays of the same Kudu's ear (left in this case). A Kudu ear is usually pretty close to 12 inches.
In a straight line it looks like 3.5 ear lengths. Zero allowance for the curl.



So, not to just throw that photo to the wolves. Here is a Photo of my first Kudu.




So, which Kudu us bigger than the other one?
Mine appears to be 4 ear lengths long while the other is 3.5.
So the second was is larger right?

So, what is the perspective trick I used to make the second Kudu appear larger?
I did not change the size of the overlay or the photos relative size.
A clue: (Near objects appear larger than far objects)

By the way he measured 57 inches with a steal tape in the ridge of the longest horn.


If you are interested in inches, bring your own steal tape and measure it yourself. Honestly, it is the only solution.

Mannlicher said:

So you think I was betrayed ?

Mannlicher

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When I first seen the picture I thought no way myself just thought it was wrong to say you were lying. The one thing that tells me the right size is the tape and you proved it by showing the tape. I don't care who you are or how many kudu you have seen they are flat out hard to judge. Great bull anyway you look at him and be proud of taking him

Any way you look at nice kudu and keeping posting pictures don't let some words stop you from that.

Billc I guess that's why you don't make a living hunting them Like anything else it comes down to hours and experiance, just like judging ivory or any other trophy for that matter. Kudu may be hard to judge, but even a novice can see a 60" bull when it comes up. The same goes for any other species were the hunter is looking for a specific length trophy, up to the PH to make the call, if he is right, client pays, if he is wrong he pays. Don't down play experience. If the bull is 60" great for the hunter, I would not back it as a 60" bull if I had to pay or stake my reputation on it. Nice trophy by all means as said before,60" not likely. I don't need clients to put a tape on an animal to tell me I was right or wrong, I should know that before they pull the trigger.

Well I guess all your time and experience let you down judging that one because when a tape tells me 60 plus I believe it. I also thought there was no way it was 60 plus but was shown it was. Maybe it is easy to say a size and think your right as long as you don't ever measure it. Can't ever be wrong doing it that way I guess.

As for my judging I can tell you it is way better then you may think. I am not playing down experience but your kidding yourself if you think guys with less experience can not judge or learn how. Talking with many guys who PH for a living and outfit for real say kudu are one of the hardest to judge. That is fact that has been told to me by 6 different Ph's who I trust there word. These are licensed PH and outfitters who do it over 200 days a year.

Can you tell me were you are a licensed ph and outfitter hunthardsafaris. I always wondered if you only outfit and ph in the east cape.

Tokkie, You obviously know your stuff and as you have stated a 60 inch Kudu is in a league of its own. Mannlicher has posted two Kudu photos and indeed the first is not far off the magic number but the second has been grossly over measured. Nevertheless a fine one to take.

Billc,read Brickburn's comments on tapes.
If Mannlicher is sure this is indeed a 60" bull great, I would like to see a official measurement to convince me I am wrong.

Seems like you won't need a PH much longer to hunt in Africa then Billc.

I actually don't PH anymore unless a client specifically insists I hunt with them. I prefer and I am in the fortunate position to hunt more myself now.
Glad you did ask though, I hunted Zambia,Moz, Zim, Natal,Free State,Limpopo,Mpumelanga and just about every other province in SA. Currently I am still licenced in the EC, but act as a agent for several SA Outfitters.If you would like some credentials I will PM you with a few articles done for what was the most popular (about only) hunting magazine back in the day I use to hunt 200+ days a year myself. There is one on judging Kudu you may find useful.


If Mannlicher would be so kind as to grant permition I will be happy to send the photo to a few "more experianced" PH's than myself and ask them to "call it"

Call me hard headed, shallow, or a complete dumbazzz, but this is the exact reason I refuse to hunt game, especially trophy kudu, on a sliding scale basis. Shitttstorms between client and PH can't be a good thing.

Like I said before I myself did not think it was a 60" bull just did not feel the need to say he was wrong. More classy to say nice bull and move on.

As for hunting Africa on my own. If legal I would already do that now. For some strange reason guys who hunt Africa think guys from the states cant hunt. Maybe the typical clients you deal with can not but a bunch of us could with no problem at all.
I will make a deal with you. I will come hunt the cape with you and hunt what ever you think is the hunt of all hunts there. Then you come hunt Colorado or montana for elk with me and tell me I don't know how to hunt or which is harder to do. I am willing to back my big talk up.

I don't think I asked were you hunted I asked were you were a licensed ph and outfitter. What I really want was your license numbers as a ph and outfitter since you would have those. With a name hunt hard safaris I thought you were a ph and outfitter.

So you hunted the places as a client and learn like must of us then.
I have hunt mexico, albert Canada , sask. Canada, new mexico, Colorado, montana, Wyoming, Maryland, new york , texas and Pa. Some with guides and some on my own. I have only hunt 38 days in south Africa so far but doing another 20 days in 2016. I hope that makes me a traveled hunter and real hunter now.

JGRaider said:

Call me hard headed, shallow, or a complete dumbazzz, but this is the exact reason I refuse to hunt game, especially trophy kudu, on a sliding scale basis. Shitttstorms between client and PH can't be a good thing.

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Not in love with the sliding scale thing anyway.

But, when I pull out a 1/4 wide steel trophy tape and measure a trophy we will have an exact number. Hands down. No arguing.
No plastic, no cloth, no carpenters tapes.

He for sure is no 60 inch plus ..........but he is mine !
Glen

Nice back tracking Billc Your 6 other experianced PH's should have also told you that with Kudu your first estimate is normally the right one, after that they tend to get bigger the longer you look at them. That tip was for free.

I actually hunted with clients in those places, if you want my PH number you should have just asked. If you knew the law in SA and you checked my profile you would also see Sweden in there. That alone should tell you that I cannot register as a Outfitter in SA.

Billc, trust me I have hunted with many good old boys from the US, police,marines,snipers and just plain old folk that turn a honest buck everyday. I have also hunted with folks that list somewhere on the Forbs list, he was also a nice fellow. The hardest men I have actually hunted with are locals in SA.

As for hard hunts a Norwegian reserve hunt is pretty much up there durring winter. So is a Swedish Moose hunt up north.

By pointing out the Kudu was not 60" I was actually not referring to Mannlicher being a bit optimistic with the tape measure. What I was doing was indicating that if he paid by the inch or was charged for a 60" bull, he was short changed. Also this being AH and one of the leading hunting forums I would not like other hunters to think that is what a 60" bull looks like, because it is not.

Now as for the pissing contest between you and myself I would suggest we take it up were we don't bore people to death or take over a pretty decent post.

Nice Bull Mannlicher, always will be a good trophy.