Outfitters & PH's have you ever been burned?

BRICKBURN said:

Fair warning!

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+2. I think giving him a warning is very fair of you.

BRICKBURN said:

Fair warning!

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+3

Trap123 said:

How I long for the days when a mans word and a handshake were solid as oak.
You guys sure know how to make a guy nervous as i am going on my first safari in april and i have no contract and already paid in full

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Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't know that those days ever truly existed. People have been cheating other people since the beginning of time.

That being said, I think you are fine doing business the way you are and for the reasons you say you are doing it. To me, a contract is to make things clear as much as anything else. So if everything is clear then I personally see no issue as long as the legalities have been observed. There is a lot to be said for keeping the legal junk to a minimum!

Well Royal.... To be honest I have been beaten in the past by a man that looked me in the eye and shook my hand.I am a slow learner and tend to more or less trust anyone until they give me a reason not to.It is just hard for me to understand how anyone with a conscience could have what sounds like a successful safari and then stiff the guy that provided it.There is something to be said for the wild west and a little frontier justice

Royal27 said:

Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't know that those days ever truly existed. People have been cheating other people since the beginning of time.

That being said, I think you are fine doing business the way you are and for the reasons you say you are doing it. To me, a contract is to make things clear as much as anything else. So if everything is clear then I personally see no issue as long as the legalities have been observed. There is a lot to be said for keeping the legal junk to a minimum!

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I agree. Its nostalgia in that people long for a great glorious bygone past that never truly existed. I'd venture to say that with the advent of the internet and forums, while it may have given scammers more and a broader "hunting ground" it is also an excellent avenue to out scammers. If someone gets scammed, they post the scammer's info etc... on here and literally hundreds or thousands of people will read about that scammer. The reverse holds true as well.

Trap123 said:

Well Royal.... To be honest I have been beaten in the past by a man that looked me in the eye and shook my hand.I am a slow learner and tend to more or less trust anyone until they give me a reason not to.It is just hard for me to understand how anyone with a conscience could have what sounds like a successful safari and then stiff the guy that provided it.There is something to be said for the wild west and a little frontier justice

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You'll get no argument from me!

Hope you didn't misunderstand what I was saying. Not sure that I put it very well.

No worries Royal......understood completely.I know the world I live in(in my head) doesn't exist so I just bury my head in the sand and hope for the best.
I guess I would make a terrible businessman
hopefully the party in question has an epiphany and makes it right.

Royal, I hear

Royal27 said:

Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't know that those days ever truly existed. People have been cheating other people since the beginning of time.

That being said, I think you are fine doing business the way you are and for the reasons you say you are doing it. To me, a contract is to make things clear as much as anything else. So if everything is clear then I personally see no issue as long as the legalities have been observed. There is a lot to be said for keeping the legal junk to a minimum!

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Being a crook ranks right next to whore in oldest profession.

However, I do know & believe those days existed.... Fervently!!! Where your name, honor, conscience, pride, etc.... Were priceless.... And maybe all you had. Sadly, much/most of that is gone.

Gerrit has this issue been resolved for you?

Sometimes a man gets turned by his circumstance. An otherwise well meaning fellow falls on hard times and then pride blinds him to what is right. If that is what happened here I still think this fellow can do right by coming clean to Gerrit. A thousand pounds will be lifted from his shoulders and time will heal the wounds. It takes real strength to do that especially after all this time. Sadly, if he keeps his head in the sand he will be exposed, and his name will forever be Mudd. I hope he reads this thread and makes the right call.

Well, since i had no reply to my last email to the mentioned hunter i think i will just go ahead!!

Mr David Eugene Bardwell age 43 living in Benton Louisiana hunted with with Bos en Dal Safaris in September 2014 he shot 2 wildebeest, blesbok, common Reedbuck and a Nyala! It was a good hunt and we shared some good moment together going after the nyala and a second blue!!!
Well when it came to settling the bill mr Bardwell apparently lost his wallet with all tje trophy fees in it... I told him to go back to the states and he can settle his account when he gets home and sort out this mess!!
At first he was very informative of the situation keeping me up to date on the situation! He then once asked for my banking details again as he wanted to settle his debt!! After a week or so i contacted him to inform him that there were no funds transferred from his side!! Then the excuses started....
First there was something wrong with his bank and he would get his uncle to pay me, then his uncle was a d!€k (this is according to him and not me) and didn't want to pay for his holliday!!!
Well it didnt take long for him to kind of dissapear on me and as i said any mail i send to him nowadays are in vain!!
So to any Business man, outfitter or just the normal guy on the street who do bussiness from time to time, please be aware of this man!!!
By doing this i know i will not benefit from this but maybe this thread can assist other people from stepping into the same hole i did!!


All the best
Gerrit

man , I hope you get your money back Gerrit. naming and shaming might be ones only recourse in the end.
I got burnt a few years ago for $ 30 000( proper ) by a " nice " hunter. Never seen a cent of that.
Do not offcourse forget the outfitter crook who pulls one on you. Selling a number of free range Elephants and Buffalo hunts to other outfitters every year has taught me to be cautious , very cautious. Some very slippery outfitters out there...

It is sad and disappointing that it had to come to this, but I support you 100% Gerrit. Thank you for the public service of warning others. I believe you have done the right thing.
Apparently he was not concerned with ever getting his trophies either...

Sorry you were stolen from. Hopefully no one else will get burned by this guy.

So sorry it had to come to this. I hope it helps you get your money back, but at least no one else should get burned now.

Too bad there was no response. I spoke to a outfitter from Namibia at the show in Salt Lake and he got stiffed to the tune 18,000 dollars by a guy last year, he has since found out that the guy did the same to a SA outfitter. There are definitely crooks out there!!

Sorry to hear about this Gerrit!

I've sent clients home before - relying on their honesty and hoping nothing bad happens to them before they can pay me... Those were some tense days / weeks - that's for sure!

Reading what happened to you makes me realize just how risky these "allowances" were - especially considering how much money was involved the few times it happened to me...

Personally I don't quite get how anyone would come to Africa (even the honest ones) and expect to pay when they're back home. Sure as hell no hotel - not here, not in North America and not in Africa will let me pay them a week or more after I've stayed there? I don't get why anyone would think it'll be okay...

Best of luck to you!

Chris

Ps. Pity I only learned about this now... I was in LA just last month and would gladly have gone and "knocked on his door" for you...

CT Safaris said:

Sorry to hear about this Gerrit!

I've sent clients home before - relying on their honesty and hoping nothing bad happens to them before they can pay me... Those were some tense days / weeks - that's for sure!

Reading what happened to you makes me realize just how risky these "allowances" were - especially considering how much money was involved the few times it happened to me...

Personally I don't quite get how anyone would come to Africa (even the honest ones) and expect to pay when they're back home. Sure as hell no hotel - not here, not in North America and not in Africa will let me pay them a week or more after I've stayed there? I don't get why anyone would think it'll be okay...

Best of luck to you!

Chris

Ps. Pity I only learned about this now... I was in LA just last month and would gladly have gone and "knocked on his door" for you...

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Just the fact that a client would say, probably, right before they're supposed to pay you at the end of a safari or once they're at the air port that they can't pay you the balance or don't have the money would set some alarm bells off if I where in such a position as an outfitter. Say the cost of the safari was 15,000- 10,000 in daily rates and 5000 in trophy fees. This was the agreed upon cost upon booking and a $5000 deposit was paid, why would the client not have the remaning 10K to pay the outfitter upon the completion of said safari? If an honest person had qualms about carrying large sums of money with them to Africa and during th flight, in the airport and so forth then they would address this issue and talk it over with the outfitter BEFOREHAND and work out a mutually agreeable payment option. Any honest person would do that.

Now in case 2 say the original cost at booking was 15,000-half of the daily rate fees where paid and over the course of the safari the client took extra animal(s) or added additional days. In this case if they where honest should they not once more tell the outfitter beforehand that they only have 10K with them and don't have the additional money on hand and if they can get someone from home to wire the money to them/you while they are still in Africa? This is assuming that they are carrying the cash with them for the duration of the safari and did not arrange some other payment option in which case this would probably be irrelevant. Again an honest person would not wait until the last minute to raise any issues that might exist.

Furthermore if the client doesn't have the bablance upon the end of the safari where exactly would the outiffter keep said client or do about it?

Fortunately not yet!!

We have the trophies gentleman, if a client want's his trophies he needs to settle his bill otherwise the shipment will be on hold until all funds are paid!