.416 Bullets: Woodleigh, Swift or North Fork?

Nicholas Barcomb

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Been doing quite a bit of reading and have heard many stories about each one of the above mentioned bullets in various calibers. I, however, have narrowed it down to one caliber, .416 as I am planning on a modern CZ550 Kevlar in said caliber. I am looking for experience with the mentioned bullets in .416. My own previous experience is with Woodleigh PPRNs in 6.5 x 55 SE and .30-06, as well as the SNs in .412 for my Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester. I know several people that swear by Swift A-Frames on heavy boned critters on anything from musk-ox, coastal browns, to dugga boys. I also have talked to a few people that have used the North Fork bullets with excellent results in anything from .366 to .500 on some of the planets' heaviest boned and thick skinned animals. All 3 are great bullets with excellent followings. What say you?
 
A-Frames
I've only done load dev't with then, no hunting, but would do so with 100% confidence.

North Fork
I'm probably their biggest fan here on AH. Easier to develop a load for than the A-Frames in my experience. However in the smaller calibers they are sensitive to neck thickness consistency. The bullets are made to diameter of the bore and I think this is why. This doesn't seem to matter in the larger bores however. Performance in the field is as advertised. My older son took down a bull Eland using his .308 Win with the 165gr versions. Will happily use them again.

Woodleigh
No experience at with their bullets. Have read plenty of good things on them. But I've also read that you don't want to drive them too fast. With the A-Frames and NF's (and TSX/TTSX for that matter), this is not a concern, so in my mind, why bother?
 
Myself I would go with Woodleigh they make a good bullet.
But then again they are easy for me to get, thats a big part of why I use them.

I have no first hand experience with the Swift or North Fork.
 
I do like the Woodleigh's too and am thinking of staying with them. I looked up on their website and noticed that the impact velocity for proper expansion on a soft nose is between 1900 and 2200 fps. If I get the Rigby up to 2400 - 2500 fps with the 410 gr bullets, by the time it goes 50 yds, it should be down to at least 2200 on impact. Even so, a follow up shot would be with the solid. One reason why I am thinking of the Northforks, don't like to take chances on wounding if I don't have to. Especially since I will already be paying a large sum of money for a safari and the wounding of game as full price too. Not to mention attempting to follow-up on a wounded buff is not my idea of a fun day for anyone, at least from what I have read so far.
 
You can't get Barnes? Or just don't like 'em? They are my #1 choice in .416.

.
 
Nicholas,
the R.I.V's (recommended impact velocities) for the Woodleighs are there for a reason.
At beyond the R.I.V they will mushroom aggressively.
If you are a lung/rib shooter that may not be a bad thing but I ask you to consider how far a lung shot buffalo can go before "giving up the ghost".

Depending on where you hunt and who you hunt with it could/should be expected that the majority of buffalo hunting occurs well inside of 100yds and most of that would be inside of 50yds, meaning your projectile will impact with most of its muzzle velocity (and also that the buffalo does not have far to go to level the score !!).

If you insist loading your .416 to 2250+ I strongly urge you to consider loading the very strongest projectiles available.
My personal preference would be ; C.E.B's, Nth Forks, G.S Customs and Barnes T.S.X's.
If loading below 2250 I would go Swift A frames or Woodleighs.

Best of luck,
Paul.
 
What sort of 416 do you have?

I have had what I would call excellent results with the Woodleigh 416 cal Cat #37C- 400Gn Rn in my Model70 Winchester in 416 Rem Mag driven @2350fps. This is on the upper end of their recommended impact velocity. I would love to try the 450Gn RN one day. They even say on the their website- don't get carried away with light bullet and high velocity.

I use Woodleigh's in nearly all my rifles. From big game trophy taking, to thinning out the local pest population at home. Even to get a good score in competitive target shooting! As an experiment I ran a box of 308" Cat#65D 180gn projectiles on my Lyman electronic scales. There was only a +/- of 0.1gn between the whole box!

Another feature of Woodleigh- recommended impact velocity, BC and SC printed on the box! My 8mm Rem Mag is testament to this. I can drive a 250Gn Cat #64D Rn at 3000fps. Well over the recommended impact velocity, with a 4" group @ 100m. I keep it down to 2650fps I get MOA groups and I'm at the upper end of the zone recommended by the manufacturer. Doing my own primitive penetration test, the slower load actually penetrates 3 more telephone books @25m than the hotter load.( I don't come from a big area code either, our phone books are only about 1" thick). Why run the gun hot for no real gain.

There are many PH's that argue the Woodleigh's are too soft cause they don't do a entry/ exit wound. In my experience this is true, but game has dropped on the spot or run a short distance. Great if your trophy is in the middle of a mob. All the energy has been absorbed by the animal. Hydrostatic shock is a big topic to get into but does have many pro's and con's, we won't go off topic and get into this debate here.I think the PH's don't like it as it is less spore trail left to follow if game is hit in the wrong place.

The Woodleigh Hydrostatically stabilised solids are a step up again!

The bonded core to jacket has on the RN and PP have NEVER failed me and a nice mushroom effect has always been obtained with excellent weight retention. Why are there so many commercial ammunition manufacturers now loading their factory fodder with Woodleigh's?

Yes I am Australian but sometimes I can't get an order of what I want for sometimes up to a month. The fact that they are still at a reasonable price astounds me. Unfortunately the local market is a mere drop in the ocean compared to overseas orders. I don't even bother about trying to get Swift, A- Frame or even Barnes
 
Not a big Barnes fan, that is why it wasn't part of the thread. drew416, those are my thoughts too. I use Woodleigh PPRNs in my 6.5 x 55 SE, .30-06 SPR, and the SNs in my .405 Winchester. They work awesome. As a matter of fact, even at more than impact velocities, the Woodleigh's have outperformed the GS Customs. For this reason, I want the insurance at any distance and am leaning heavily towards the North Fork's. It also looks like I will be heading to a Camp near the George River,QC for caribou this fall and will more than likely take the 6.5 x 55 SE with 140 gr PPRNs. Here are some pictures of my 2011 Russian boar hunt.

The rifle, Tikka T3 Lite SS in 6.5 x 55 SE:
mypictures506.jpg


The ammo, 160 gr Woodleigh PPRNs (not recovered, pass through left orbital to right rear jaw line):
mypictures504.jpg


The target, after traveling for 17 hours in a truck we had to make sure we were on for distance (100 yds):
mypictures005.jpg


First shot was almost dead center and I was laughing so hard I darned near pulled the other 2 shots!

My little piggy! He may have been one of the smallest, but he was one of the toughest and had the longest cutters out of any hog taken that trip:
mypictures002.jpg


Wish I had more, but with work I don't really get a chance to get out too often for deer or bear. Usually when I go out for bear I run into moose (getting so sick of that) and haven't been able to draw a tag for them yet. Really pisses me off because I see 10x more moose than I do deer. Game department is thinking of letting people living in this area get tags for moose on an every other year basis depending on if they get a kill or not. Here's a video of one that was within arms reach a few seconds before the video was taken. Thank God for the birch fall because it was early rut and this boy wasn't having any of us!:
th_WP_20131005_140700Z_zps66d9c6ce.mp4

http://vid1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/WP_20131005_140700Z_zps66d9c6ce.mp4

The video was taken with a phone so t doesn't give a true representation of the animals distain nor the closeness, about 25 feet.
 

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Awesome footage. By the looks of your target you hold the rifle steadier than your phone. Ha Ha.

Would you believe I am starting to play with 160gn PP and RN Woodleigh's in my 6.5X55 M38 Mauser.

Nic I have no experience with North Fork. They are not really on the shelves in gun shops in Australia, The Woodleigh's can be obtained by a call to Geoff Mac at the factory. I.m not hunting Moose or Bear but have shot alot of Brumbies, scrub cattle, red dear, and plenty of pigs locally. In Africa Woodleigh's out of my rifles have taken Dik Dik to Buffalo no problems at all.

I don't think the Woodleigh's will let you down on your local game either. By the looks of your target you know how to put a shot where it's needed and that's half the battle already won!
 
You will like the 160 PPRNs for your M38. I'll bet you'll give a good sambar a run for it's money with those! Yes, I plan on going to Oz sometime after I retire. I've been given an invitation to go to a ranch in NSW with another short trip to NWT later on for some water buff. Plan on bringing the .30-06 loaded with the 240 PPRNs for pigs and such and the Winchester 1895 loaded with some 325 gr LFNs for the buff and scrubbies. Good luck and stay safe.
 
I came late into this, but my vote is for Swift A-frames.

the Woodleigh soft isn't a bad bullet but its just a simple bonded soft point. the A-frame is a much more modern bonded dual core bullet which has been proven time and time again as reliable regardless of the situation.

-matt
 
I know this is not part of the subject and I probably discounted them in a part of this thread somewhere. Has anyone tried the GS Customs FN bullets at all? If so, performance and penetration on animals would be a great place to start. Also, are these monometal or cup-n-core bullets. Thank you.
 
all GS custom bullets are monometal.

@KMG Hunting Safaris uses them and recommends them so hopefully he will weigh in on this question.

-matt
 
I know this is not part of the subject and I probably discounted them in a part of this thread somewhere. Has anyone tried the GS Customs FN bullets at all? If so, performance and penetration on animals would be a great place to start. Also, are these monometal or cup-n-core bullets. Thank you.

Matt is 100% correct, they are mono metal bullets. They are of exceptional quality and performance and penetration is not a problem at all. They do shed petals, but the shank of the bullets penetrates in a straight line. These petals sometimes help by nicking an artery here, or cutting a liver there, on the shots that might not hit 100% true.
 
Hello Nicholas Barcomb,

I apologize in advance for the length of this rambling rant.
It's probably extra silly that I'm responding in such tedious detail, considering all these many long months that have passed since your original question.
My only feeble excuse is that I have enjoyed two double espressos this morning and I'm buzzin' like a saw.

1. From everything I have read and discussed in person with people who have taken many buffalo (and a few elephant in some cases), the following is a common concept that keeps popping up:
Even for hunting elephant (with 410 gr solid or 400 gr solid, depending on brand of projectile) or buffalo (soft, followed by solids) there is no need to load a large caliber cartridge, including the .416 to 2500 fps, no need at all.
Well respected Author Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson has mentioned that in his experiences, anything above about 2400 fps maximum, is actually a potential DISADVANTAGE, for expanding bullets, in all of the suitably medium to large bore calibers, commonly used for heavy game hunting.

2. To quote John Luyt of "Duke Safaris" (named after a famous Kruger Park huge tusker named "Duke"):
"I've never seen an A-Frame Fail".

3. As Matt85 and others (including the manufacturer) have already mentioned, the Woodleighs are quite good / bonded core bullets that, work very well within their intended velocity range (refer back to Dr. Robertson's two cents on velocity, as it pertains to appropriate calibers for hunting heavy game).

4. Hannes Swanepoel of "Hannes Swanepoel Safaris" (named after a retired Kruger Park Game Warden - LOL), told me that he witnessed a Woodleigh 215 gr soft, fired from a local client's .303 British caliber rifle, travel lengthwise through most of a trophy class bull kudu.
It did not exit but was found in perfect mushroom shape, most of the way toward the opposite end of the animal.

5. North Fork bullets have an excellent reputation from what I have read about them but, I do not know anyone personally who has used them.

6. If you absolutely must load your .416 "hot", you should probably use the A-Frame or perhaps even the Barnes or similar monometal type expanding bullet.
However, as a result of my life's experiences with various shapes/profiles and patented designs of bullets (in rifles and handguns both), I do not trust any hollow point bullet so, I am not necessarily endorsing Barnes and similar designed hollow point projectiles.

Only having witnessed one animal shot with a Barnes monometal bullet (caribou / .30-06 / 180 gr), admittedly I am not in any position to claim conclusive findings.
However it failed to expand whatsoever, (as also has been my experience from time to time, with old fashioned conventional guilding metal jacketed lead core type hollow point rifle and handgun projectiles.)
I am however mentioning monometal expanding bullets, because of their toughness in holding together at extreme velocity impacts, they are justifiably famous for it.

Whether they decide to expand or just zip through like a military spitzer, they do retain their weight at pretty much any impact velocity your shoulder can stand in recoil, resulting in fantastic penetration.
In fact due to their ability to withstand extreme velocity impacts, it seems very strange to me that Weatherby, Remington Ultra-Mag and Spazzeroni, have not switched all of their live factory loaded ammunition to Barnes TSX or TTSX or TT-XYZ, TT-KGB, TT-KKK, TT-RIP, etc., etc., and whatever else they will call their inevitable next "improved version" of the monometal expanding bullet.
Dr. Robertson likes Barnes bullets (and that is an excellent-plus endorsement) and Hannes Swanepoel does not care for them, especially for buffalo (due to the occasional failure to expand when striking thickly slathered in mud condition animals), so take your pick.

7. Parting Shot as it were:
Don't drive old fashioned soft bullets too fast and don't drive new fangled hard bullets too slow.

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Velo, pretty much a lot of what I gathered as well. More than likely will still go with the Woodleigh soft and solid. I don't generally drive "hot", the accuracy node will probably reach before the maximum load anyway (usually does at roughly 3% from maximum in my rifles).
 
@Velo Dog , I agree with most you say. However,

Well respected Author Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson has mentioned that in his experiences, anything above about 2400 fps maximum, is actually a potential DISADVANTAGE, for expanding bullets, in all of the suitably medium to large bore calibers, commonly used for heavy game hunting.
I have met Doctari and respect him tremendously and still have contact with him, but I believe that this info, might be painting all bullets with the same brush. Sure, it will still applicable to the old school bullet designs, but new technology has proven otherwise lately. GS Custom, is not old school bullet design.
The last 6 Cape Buffalo taken from my camp rifle, launching a 200gr GS Custom HV, at around 3200fps says otherwise. It devastates them.

Only having witnessed one animal shot with a Barnes monometal bullet (caribou / .30-06 / 180 gr), admittedly I am not in any position to claim conclusive findings.
However it failed to expand whatsoever, (as also has been my experience from time to time, with old fashioned conventional guilding metal jacketed lead core type hollow point rifle and handgun projectiles.)
I am however mentioning monometal expanding bullets, because of their toughness in holding together at extreme velocity impacts, they are justifiably famous for it.

Whether they decide to expand or just zip through like a military spitzer, they do retain their weight at pretty much any impact velocity your shoulder can stand in recoil, resulting in fantastic penetration.
In fact due to their ability to withstand extreme velocity impacts, it seems very strange to me that Weatherby, Remington Ultra-Mag and Spazzeroni, have not switched all of their live factory loaded ammunition to Barnes TSX or TTSX or TT-XYZ, TT-KGB, TT-KKK, TT-RIP, etc., etc., and whatever else they will call their inevitable next "improved version" of the monometal expanding bullet.
Dr. Robertson likes Barnes bullets (and that is an excellent-plus endorsement) and Hannes Swanepoel does not care for them, especially for buffalo (due to the occasional failure to expand when striking thickly slathered in mud condition animals), so take your pick.

Barnes are made from a Copper alloy, and are thus much, much harder than a bullet such as GS Custom, which is made from 100% copper. The fact that the GS Custom bullets are 100% copper means that they are softer and enables them to open up at much lower velocities. It is also the design of the bullet that allows us to launch them at unheard of velocities. ( 3200fps from a .375H&H?)
Saying this, bare in mind that GS Custom are all light for caliber bullets. This is one of the reasons I don't use them in the Rigby for backup on dangerous game.(Report to come shortly on bullets used in the Rigby and their performance) This is simply due to the fact that, because the projectiles are made from 100% copper, they have no lead to increase the weight, and in order for the weight to be achieved, the bullet will simply be too long.


Wish I could type more, but busy meditating for Brickburn's arrival to camp on Sunday.:ROFLMAO:
 
Hi KMG Hunting Safaris,

I totally respect your opinion on bullets/velocity because, no doubt my experiences compared to yours are but a single rain drop in the ocean.

However, in case any reader is under the impression from "Doctari's" "borrowed" opinion here that, velocity above about 2400 fps is actually counter productive on heavy game, perhaps I should clarify, as best my ever deteriorating memory can provide.
(Please jump in any time Dr. Robertson, especially if I misquote you).

Excess velocity does encourage over-expansion or even shattering of the old fashioned lead core bullets, resulting in lack of needed penetration on heavy animals.
However the reverse becomes a hunter's risk with some of the latest super tough expanding bullets fired at too high a velocity, such as the Barnes and other mono metal ones.

In one or more of his books, "Doctari" wrote that he prefers bullets to remain in the target, especially when hunting herd animals such as buffalo.
Anyone who hunts buffalo (or any herd animal in thick bush) should be aware that, it may appear no animal is behind their intended target but sometimes they are there, concealed within the foliage and shadows, despite everyone's best efforts to see them.

So, with rather soft bullets, we risk not enough penetration and with rather hard ones, we risk too much penetration.

Again, if my feeble memory serves me correctly here, that was the foundation of Dr. Robertson's "maximum velocity of about 2400 fps" writing.

Your using of a 200 gr, .375 H&H caliber, mono metal expanding bullets, at about 800 fps faster than the above idea has worked for you on 6 buffalo, and success is impossible for me to argue against, especially with my only one buffalo experience (.450 No2 NE / 480 gr soft and solid at 2050 fps).

I'd like to say "sooner or later you will experience a failure to expand or, a "nickoshea" (light fast spritzer nicks a heavy bone and pitches off in a new direction, not necessarily an effective direction).
And then you will have an angry buff, with only an ice pick type wound, or worse yet, no vital organ damage, to sort out.
But again, with my one and only buffalo hunt to draw from, my credibility is just about non-existent here.

So I will stand by to learn what I can from you and other PHs / greatly experienced clients alike.

Please tell Brickburn that I for one am looking forward to his hunting tails.
Good luck and safe hunting to you both.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
I'd like to say "sooner or later you will experience a failure to expand or, a "nickoshea" (light fast spritzer nicks a heavy bone and pitches off in a new direction, not necessarily an effective direction).
And then you will have an angry buff, with only an ice pick type wound, or worse yet, no vital organ damage, to sort out.

the other side to the same coin is that "sooner or later you will have a lead bullet fail on you". sure mono-metal metals can fail but so can any expanding bullet. lead bullets suffer from the opposite problem, they can over expand or even explode. both of which can lead to the bullet failing to reach vital organs. Dr. Robertson personally told me he wasnt fond of solid lead bullets (specifically the 600gr Woodleigh in the 505 Gibbs) on heavy game because they did occasionally explode on impact with heavy bones such as a buffalo's shoulder. his recommendation for my 505 Gibbs was the North Fork 600gr CPS which is a mono-metal semi-expanding solid or for herd situations he recommended the Barnes 525gr TSX at 2150fps to ensure it didnt pass threw.

the logical best medium between the solid lead bullet and the solid copper/brass bullet is the dual core lead bullet. this brings out the Nosler partition and the Swift A-frame. for heavy game the A-frame is the better choice between the two as it holds its weight better then the partition. but then again even the mighty A-frame can fail. the A-frame can suffer from a similar problem as the mono-metal bullets, it can fail to fully expand at low velocities. in general i personally wouldnt recommend running a Swift A-frame any slower then 2300fps or you risk less then full expansion.

-matt
 

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