Lion hunts in RSA

Pieter

I don't think one thing has anything to do with the other. The answer to poaching is to stop or be stopped - it's not to provide an alternative source.......... If the east wants cat bones, let 'em farm cats like people farm cattle.... After all, they breed quickly & easily which is why so many people in Africa are involved in breeding them.

I'm no more against farming cats per se any more than I am against farming cattle but I am against farming cats for shooting & hunters shooting them under the pretext of hunting them.

shakari said:

Pieter

I don't think one thing has anything to do with the other. The answer to poaching is to stop or be stopped - it's not to provide an alternative source.......... If the east wants cat bones, let 'em farm cats like people farm cattle.... After all, they breed quickly & easily which is why so many people in Africa are involved in breeding them.

I'm no more against farming cats per se any more than I am against farming cattle but I am against farming cats for shooting & hunters shooting them under the pretext of hunting them.

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I think this has all to do with each other.....apples with apples.....creating a legal sustainable source in order to protect threatened species. This like I said was slightly of topic but prooves a certain conservation value.

It seems like you watch the youtube huntingporn and then use that as your main frame of reference to attack the industry.
I can refer to a wild lion hunt featured on Ivan Carters "beast of legend" where a fast asleep cat gets shot . If I used this as a reference I could condemn wild lion hunting as unethical shooting, however I see the bigger picture. Of course I will not try to change the unchangeable(your opinion), but in the same way you do it is possible to crucify all methods of hunting, just the way the antis do it.

shakari said:

Pieter

I don't think one thing has anything to do with the other. The answer to poaching is to stop or be stopped - it's not to provide an alternative source...........

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Shakari,
It has absolutely to do with everything. The product of captive bred lion hunting provides a supply to a demand. This supply relieves pressure on the wild population. Hence, CONSERVATION. Full stop.
No captive bred lions = Wild lions become the supply.

The answer is not to stop poaching. That is impossible. If you think that you will ever stop poaching in Africa, then the Portuguese Ginjinha has gone to your head. If we can curb it, we should see it as a small victory.

I try not to watch You Tube or even hunting vids if I can help it because I don't think hunting translates to the screen & that's made worse for me by all the high fiving & cheerleading squeals one so often sees. - There are a few good ones but not many. (IMO)

As I said, I don't have a problem with farming them per se but let the eastern countries do it themselves....... all the while it happens in Africa, the lions will also be used for shooting simply because of the additional profit available & the demand from trophy room furnisher types. - History has proved that the profit motive & easy/cheap way to get a lion is irresistible to so many people.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Shakari,
It has absolutely to do with everything. The product of captive bred lion hunting provides a supply to a demand. This supply relieves pressure on the wild population. Hence, CONSERVATION. Full stop.
No captive bred lions = Wild lions become the supply.

The answer is not to stop poaching. That is impossible. If you think that you will ever stop poaching in Africa, then the Portuguese Ginjinha has gone to your head. If we can curb it, we should see it as a small victory.

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How does it relieve pressure on the wild population then?

Lions are a quota animal and only a stipulated number may be shot and after that number has been reached then that's it for the year........... therefore, captive bred lions do bugger all for the wild lion population.

What it does do however, is allow people who want a lion to shoot one on on the cheap and without effort and to allow the seller a lot of profit he wouldn't have otherwise made but it does absolutely nothing to affect the wild lion population one way or the other! - The two things are completely unrelated to each other.

I agree poaching is indeed virtually impossible to stop and I've said that but it certainly won't ever even be slowed let alone stopped unless the head is cut off of the snake and the only way to do that is to nail the guys at the top....... and I've also already said, that'll never happen either.

shakari said:

I try not to watch You Tube or even hunting vids if I can help it because I don't think hunting translates to the screen & that's made worse for me by all the high fiving & cheerleading squeals one so often sees. - There are a few good ones but not many. (IMO)

As I said, I don't have a problem with farming them per se but let the eastern countries do it themselves....... all the while it happens in Africa, the lions will also be used for shooting simply because of the additional profit available & the demand from trophy room furnisher types. - History has proved that the profit motive & easy/cheap way to get a lion is irresistible to so many people.

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You refer to You tube so often that I can only assume you watch it often. Good advice you give, what really happens does not always translate to the screen.
I guess then the east should farm their own rhino, citrus and everything they import. Then we can just get rid of the profit motive of hunting rhino or selling citruspeels for animal fodder, break up the free market system and live happily ever after in a not so free society.

shakari said:

How does it relieve pressure on the wild population then?

Lions are a quota animal and only a stipulated number may be shot and after that number has been reached then that's it for the year........... therefore, captive bred lions do bugger all for the wild lion population.

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Are you kidding me?

Let me spell it out. Because the products from the captive bred lions, supply a demand in the East, so that the wild population does not have to be killed in order to obtain these same products.
Better than that, i can't explain.

Paw Print said:

You refer to You tube so often that I can only assume you watch it often. Good advice you give, what really happens does not always translate to the screen.
I guess then the east should farm their own rhino, citrus and everything they import. Then we can just get rid of the profit motive of hunting rhino or selling citruspeels for animal fodder, break up the free market system and live happily ever after in a not so free society.

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Pieter

You're trying to put words in my mouth.... I didn't say that and I don't believe it...... but I don't have a problem with them breeding their own lions and rhinos for their own consumption if it means they'll leave the ones in Africa alone.

shakari said:

..... but I don't have a problem with them breeding their own lions and rhinos for their own consumption if it means they'll leave the ones in Africa alone.

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You have a better chance of stopping the poaching in Africa all together, I'm afraid.....

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Are you kidding me?

Let me spell it out. Because the products from the captive bred lions, supply a demand in the East, so that the wild population does not have to be killed in order to obtain these same products.
Better than that, i can't explain.

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Is that the same export product that some Govts are suggesting is either illegal or in some cases, should be be illegal and will be if they have their way. - Like I said, let the eastern countries farm the lions for themselves if they like.

As I've repeatedly said, I'm not against farming lions any more than I'm against farming cattle or sheep but I am against shooting lions under the pretext of hunting them....... those guys who do shoot such animals might as well save themselves the airfare and just have the breeder execute the animal for them and ship them the skin & skull.

What's happening here is the group of guys that offer captive lion shoots are all (quite understandably) taking turns at debating and occasionally having a pop at me and I keep defeating their arguments simply because I'm right and what they're trying to defend is indefensible...... so bring it on guys...... I can do this forever! LOL

shakari said:

Pieter

You're trying to put words in my mouth.... I didn't say that and I don't believe it...... but I don't have a problem with them breeding their own lions and rhinos for their own consumption if it means they'll leave the ones in Africa alone.

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Steve

I am not putting words in your mouth, I am just referring to what comes from your mouth.
I also have no issue with the east breeding, I would just rather have the money spent in my own country and providing income to my own people.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

You have a better chance of stopping the poaching in Africa all together, I'm afraid.....

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You might unfortunately be right there but any lessening of poaching pressure has to be a good thing........

Paw Print said:

Steve

I am not putting words in your mouth, I am just referring to what comes from your mouth.
I also have no issue with the east breeding, I would just rather have the money spent in my own country and providing income to my own people.

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Yeah you were mate...... you might not have meant to but that's exactly how it reads from this end.

Africa has plenty of things it can export if the continent, let alone individual countries are run anything close to properly and a few tons of bone etc are neither here nor there in the greater scheme of things but at the risk of getting political, the wrong people are in charge and that's why not one of the aforementioned countries could organise a one car funeral procession.

shakari said:

You might unfortunately be right there but any lessening of poaching pressure has to be a good thing........

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Another thing we agree on. I can unfortunately not carry on forever, but you are good entertainment, because of the carry on forever, I am right you are wrong attitude. See, I can keep you going for as long as it entertains me lol.

Paw Print said:

Another thing we agree on. I can unfortunately not carry on forever, but you are good entertainment, because of the carry on forever, I am right you are wrong attitude. See, I can keep you going for as long as it entertains me lol.

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It's a subtle difference but FWIW, I'm expressing a personal opinion/my own beliefs and not telling you or anyone else what you should or shouldn't do........ I don't approve of the practice and I flatly refuse to be involved in it. I'd like to see it banned by law AND I'll be happy to debate my opinion until the cows come home and I know my arguments on this particular subject can't ever be defeated because they're right...............but hey, if it's legal and it's what others choose to do then who am I to tell them what they should or shouldn't do.

shakari said:

It's a subtle difference but FWIW, I'm expressing a personal opinion/my own beliefs and not telling you or anyone else what you should or shouldn't do........ I don't approve of the practice and I flatly refuse to be involved in it. I'd like to see it banned by law AND I'll be happy to debate my opinion until the cows come home and I know my arguments on this particular subject can't ever be defeated because they're right...............but hey, if it's legal and it's what others choose to do then who am I to tell them what they should or shouldn't do.

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Steve
I feel the same about my opinion.
Sometimes the "situation calls for a soft not a camera" famous words by a wellknown retired PH, sure you know the guy!
Now I will move on to something else.

Wow ok, I've been hunting so missed all this.
Steve we've chatted about this before, so I just want to point out some things. No arguments mate

1) I offer both hunts, lions in 2 areas in Zim and in Moz as we'll as SA cats, the majority of people choose the SA cats. I will also be doing 2 wild cats this year.
2) the MANTRA of hunting conservation is , if it pays it stays, why should lion be excluded? They do run from you, hide and after hours of tracking them they wait for you or charge. You could be in the kalahari park and I'm sure that the hunt will be the same.
3) after the TB epidemic in Kruger Park, southern Kruger was repopulated with captive bred lions.
4) Lions bring in more $$$ in SA than any other species
5) the drugs used to move the cats are only in the system for 3 days where it impairs it. Therefore the 7 day wilding period, it's got 4 days to walk around.i have never hunted them up against a fence, they normally run from you and then find the thickest part of "wagebietjie " wait a bit brush to wait for you.
6) I have a mate that used to hunt lions that escaped the Mfolozi park in Natal, those cats had no wilding period and where hunted on foot. Would that be classified as a wild hunt or shoot?

7) my biggest problem is the anti hunters and OUR fight to preserve our hunting rights. If hunters keep referring to " canned " hunting how are we to go ahead.?
We need to recognize the difference, from the old canned hunts to the new captive bred hunts, these are not zoo animals or circus animals.
8) there are more than 7000 captive bred lions in SA, BUT ONLY 6-700 get hunted.


I think you have been privileged to hunt the last of the golden era, wild cats in Africa, but the truth is I think those days are fast ending. Just like hunting saved the black wildebeest or Bontebok, it's time we started making a place for lions too or we will have NO lions , in the wild or on ranches.
I think we will condemn the lion if we stop this.

Not an argument just a statement.
Best hunting regards
Dave

Dave correction, NW legislation is 96 hours 4 days, I have done some research and new legislation prohibits drug and release, found that out yesterday...

If an animal is to be darted only a Vet is allowed to do so by law and it is is is sedated and woken up right away with an "anti sedative".

I also do both and as you inform all clients of realities involved, then it is their choice.

As you correctly state we should regard ourselves as extremely fortunate to still hunt lion in their natural undisturbed wild habitat....

I envy those who lived in the era when the latter was regarded as the norm..
Thanks for your good post...

My best always

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

If hunters keep referring to " canned " hunting how are we to go ahead.?
We need to recognize the difference, from the old canned hunts to the new captive bred hunts, these are not zoo animals or circus animals.

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Have been saying this all along. Only those who have no experience,idea or have ever been involved in Captive Bred Lion hunting, will refer to it as "canned."

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

Wow ok, I've been hunting so missed all this.
Steve we've chatted about this before, so I just want to point out some things. No arguments mate

1) I offer both hunts, lions in 2 areas in Zim and in Moz as we'll as SA cats, the majority of people choose the SA cats. I will also be doing 2 wild cats this year.
2) the MANTRA of hunting conservation is , if it pays it stays, why should lion be excluded? They do run from you, hide and after hours of tracking them they wait for you or charge. You could be in the kalahari park and I'm sure that the hunt will be the same.
3) after the TB epidemic in Kruger Park, southern Kruger was repopulated with captive bred lions.
4) Lions bring in more $$$ in SA than any other species
5) the drugs used to move the cats are only in the system for 3 days where it impairs it. Therefore the 7 day wilding period, it's got 4 days to walk around.i have never hunted them up against a fence, they normally run from you and then find the thickest part of "wagebietjie " wait a bit brush to wait for you.
6) I have a mate that used to hunt lions that escaped the Mfolozi park in Natal, those cats had no wilding period and where hunted on foot. Would that be classified as a wild hunt or shoot?

7) my biggest problem is the anti hunters and OUR fight to preserve our hunting rights. If hunters keep referring to " canned " hunting how are we to go ahead.?
We need to recognize the difference, from the old canned hunts to the new captive bred hunts, these are not zoo animals or circus animals.
8) there are more than 7000 captive bred lions in SA, BUT ONLY 6-700 get hunted.


I think you have been privileged to hunt the last of the golden era, wild cats in Africa, but the truth is I think those days are fast ending. Just like hunting saved the black wildebeest or Bontebok, it's time we started making a place for lions too or we will have NO lions , in the wild or on ranches.
I think we will condemn the lion if we stop this.

Not an argument just a statement.
Best hunting regards
Dave

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Dave

Hope you had a good hunt?

2) I agree the mantra of hunting conservation is if it pays it stays but as far as I'm concerned & have previously explained, it's not hunting, it's killing and I believe it causes immense damage to real hunting. You know as well as I do that these shoots can usually be completed in 2 - 3 days whereas a real lion hunt takes 2 -3 weeks. I can understand why people do it but I can't agree with it or with it's ethics. - Note, other than when the cat is under the influence, I've never suggested a captive bred cat is any less dangerous than a wild one & in fact, have said the opposite could be well argued.

3) As I understand it from the guys involved, some were indeed introduced but only to speed things up. The surviving wild lions were already recognised as building a resistance to the disease. - It was a case of convenience rather than necessity and let's face it, lions from other parks could have also been translocated just as easily........ it should also be noted that translocations (wherever they're from) into wild areas with existing populations is fraught with difficulties because of pride and inter pride dynamics. (IIRC, This was discussed in the SA Vet Book titled something like 'Big Cats As Game Farm Animals')

4) Probably true but that doesn't make it right. Ethics shouldn't change with the price tag. I personally believe if something is wrong, it's wrong and no amount of dollars can make it right.

5) The reason for a wilding period is to allow a period of time to allow the animal to become wild and whether it's 3, 4 or 7 days, it ain't anywhere near enough time for that to happen. 6 months might be but a number of days ain't. - I can understand why the guys involved couldn't work with 6 months but don't agree shortening the wilding period is the answer. I'm also sure you know as well as I do that such a short period is opening the entire issue up to abuse such as the old dog training silent whistle trick........ these laws don't need to be introduced to police the honest guys, but not everyone is honest as we all know.

6) Somewhere between the two...... I'd call them habituated to vehicles and man but not as habituated as a captive bred animal. - The same with KNP lions etc.

7) I see a difference between hunting and shooting. Hunters have a right to hunt but if we confuse the two then we'll lose both. Put it another way, if we don't police ourselves, then someone else will step in to do it for us and if they do, they won't be pro-hunting.

8) I don't see any relevance to that statement. If 600 - 700 captive bred lions are shot per year, that's 600 - 700 too many in my eyes. As I've said before, I think the entire practice should be completely banned throughout the continent.

I don't know if I've seen the beginning of the end for wild lion hunting or not but I sincerely hope not....... the reason I argue so vehemently against captive bred lions is that I hope the next generation will be able to see and do some of the things I've seen and done and I think captive bred lion shooting is the biggest threat to that in existence today.

There's no doubt that wild lions face many other threats to their survival, not least amongst them, people like the bloody Masai who will kill any and all lions at every opportunity and by any means possible but that to me is a different issue and shouldn't be confused with this issue.

I appreciate many will think me a silly old fart for being so stubborn on this but that's the way I feel..... I can even understand why people do it. It's convenient and cheap for the shooter and profitable, quick and convenient for the operator....... but as I see it, it ain't hunting and it never will be.