Excessive Regulation & Its Impact On Hunter Numbers

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Excessive Regulation & Its Impact On Hunter Numbers

 

[Hank2211]

If demand is high, why exactly are they extending the deadline for registration? Seems like would make more sense to stick to the original deadline.

Does SCI ever publish attendance numbers? Last time I went (two years ago) I could have sworn there were fewer people, and more empty booths, than I had seen in the previous 5 years. Would be curious to see how Reno numbers compare to Vegas numbers.

 

[sierraone]

Hi Hank
Feb 16, 2017 - SCI's Ultimate Sportsmen's Market Celebrated its 45th Convention ... growth and efforts by Safari Club International and its members, SCI celebrated ... By the close of the show on Saturday, there were over 20,000 in attendance

DSC has more than 50,000 in attendance for the each of the past five years I have attended, but only has about between 6000 and 7000 members if I remember correctly. SCI requires membership to attend and DSC does not. DSC publishes the numbers after each convention.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

If demand is high, why exactly are they extending the deadline for registration? Seems like would make more sense to stick to the original deadline.

Does SCI ever publish attendance numbers? Last time I went (two years ago) I could have sworn there were fewer people, and more empty booths, than I had seen in the previous 5 years. Would be curious to see how Reno numbers compare to Vegas numbers.

I believe the SCI counts an attendee for every day that he/she attends or pays to attend. Attend four days and you will be counted four times as an attendee. Not sure wether or not they count the exhibitors as part of their attendees, that would be interesting to know. Here are some numbers that I could find from searching AH...


- 2009 -- RENO 37th -- Safari Club International Convention in Reno, Another Successful Year: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...nvention-in-reno-another-successful-year.374/ -- "With approximately 20,000 attendees, nearly four miles of aisles and 1,100 vendors".

- 2010 -- RENO 38th -- Safari Club International Convention 2010: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/safari-club-international-convention-2010.2023/#post-9410 -- "nearly 20,000 attendees" and "over 1,100 exhibiting companies leasing over 2,000 booth spaces".

- 2011 -- VEGAS 39th -- SCI Foundation Raises $205,000 For Wildlife Conservation at 2011 Hunters Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...conservation-at-2011-hunters-convention.4864/ -- No numbers announced.

- 2012 -- VEGAS 40th -- Safari Club International 2012 Hunters' Convention Sets Records: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...al-2012-hunters-convention-sets-records.7165/ -- "With a record 23,267 attendees" and "With over 1 million square feet and 2,200 vendor booths on the convention floor, SCI collected record receipts of $16 million from members and donors attending the Convention which will help protect our freedoms to hunt!".

- 2013 -- RENO 41st -- SCI Celebrates World's Greatest Hunters Convention and Wildlife Conservation: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...rs-convention-and-wildlife-conservation.9997/ -- "The second largest SCI convention held in Reno".

- 2014 -- VEGAS 42nd -- SCI Celebrates World's Greatest Hunters' Convention and Wildlife Conservation: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...s-convention-and-wildlife-conservation.13485/ -- "Over 22,500 SCI Members from 100 countries" and "over 1,100 exhibitors from around the world".

- 2015 -- VEGAS 43rd -- SCI Celebrates 2015 Annual Hunters' Convention in Las Vegas, Nevada: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...hunters-convention-in-las-vegas-nevada.21235/ -- "Over 20,000 SCI members from 100 countries" and "Those attending the convention were able to see over 1,000 exhibitors".

- 2016 -- Missing.

- 2017 -- VEGAS 45th -- SCI's Ultimate Sportsmen's Market Celebrated its 45th Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-market-celebrated-its-45th-convention.35360/ -- "there were over 20,000 in attendance" and "Exhibiting were 1,100 companies in over 2,300 booths in more than 1 million square feet".

- 2018 -- VEGAS 46th -- More than 20,000 Members were able to Chase The Adventure at the 46th Annual SCI Hunters’ Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-46th-annual-sci-hunters’-convention.42352/-- "more than 20,000 SCI members from more than 100 countries visited the 2,300 booths of more than 1,000 exhibitors at the SCI Convention this year.".

 

[Hank2211]

I believe the SCI counts an attendee for every day that he/she attends or pays to attend. Attend four days and you will be counted four times as an attendee. Not sure wether or not they count the exhibitors as part of their attendees, that would be interesting to know. Here are some numbers that I could find from searching AH...


- 2009 -- RENO 37th -- Safari Club International Convention in Reno, Another Successful Year: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...nvention-in-reno-another-successful-year.374/ -- "With approximately 20,000 attendees, nearly four miles of aisles and 1,100 vendors".

- 2010 -- RENO 38th -- Safari Club International Convention 2010: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/safari-club-international-convention-2010.2023/#post-9410 -- "nearly 20,000 attendees" and "over 1,100 exhibiting companies leasing over 2,000 booth spaces".

- 2011 -- VEGAS 39th -- SCI Foundation Raises $205,000 For Wildlife Conservation at 2011 Hunters Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...conservation-at-2011-hunters-convention.4864/ -- No numbers announced.

- 2012 -- VEGAS 40th -- Safari Club International 2012 Hunters' Convention Sets Records: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...al-2012-hunters-convention-sets-records.7165/ -- "With a record 23,267 attendees" and "With over 1 million square feet and 2,200 vendor booths on the convention floor, SCI collected record receipts of $16 million from members and donors attending the Convention which will help protect our freedoms to hunt!".

- 2013 -- RENO 41st -- SCI Celebrates World's Greatest Hunters Convention and Wildlife Conservation: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...rs-convention-and-wildlife-conservation.9997/ -- "The second largest SCI convention held in Reno".

- 2014 -- VEGAS 42nd -- SCI Celebrates World's Greatest Hunters' Convention and Wildlife Conservation: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...s-convention-and-wildlife-conservation.13485/ -- "Over 22,500 SCI Members from 100 countries" and "over 1,100 exhibitors from around the world".

- 2015 -- VEGAS 43rd -- SCI Celebrates 2015 Annual Hunters' Convention in Las Vegas, Nevada: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...hunters-convention-in-las-vegas-nevada.21235/ -- "Over 20,000 SCI members from 100 countries" and "Those attending the convention were able to see over 1,000 exhibitors".

- 2016 -- Missing.

- 2017 -- VEGAS 45th -- SCI's Ultimate Sportsmen's Market Celebrated its 45th Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-market-celebrated-its-45th-convention.35360/ -- "there were over 20,000 in attendance" and "Exhibiting were 1,100 companies in over 2,300 booths in more than 1 million square feet".

- 2018 -- VEGAS 46th -- More than 20,000 Members were able to Chase The Adventure at the 46th Annual SCI Hunters’ Convention: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-46th-annual-sci-hunters’-convention.42352/-- "more than 20,000 SCI members from more than 100 countries visited the 2,300 booths of more than 1,000 exhibitors at the SCI Convention this year.".

First, thanks for posting, Jerome and @sierraone. I should have been able to find that information myself.

Secondly, the numbers are very interesting. SCI has not claimed an attendance record since 2012, so it might be fair to assume that attendance for the last five years is down from that in 2012. They have also quoted "more than 1,100" exhibitors, and more recently, "more than 1000", so again, those numbers seem to be down.

I'm not sure what to make of all of this, other than to add to my worries that if younger people are not hunting in the same numbers as before - which seems to be the case with actual hunters in the US and Canada - then hunting is in for a progressively rougher ride in the future.

 

[sierraone]

First, thanks for posting, Jerome and @sierraone. I should have been able to find that information myself.

Secondly, the numbers are very interesting. SCI has not claimed an attendance record since 2012, so it might be fair to assume that attendance for the last five years is down from that in 2012. They have also quoted "more than 1,100" exhibitors, and more recently, "more than 1000", so again, those numbers seem to be down.

I'm not sure what to make of all of this, other than to add to my worries that if younger people are not hunting in the same numbers as before - which seems to be the case with actual hunters in the US and Canada - then hunting is in for a progressively rougher ride in the future.

Hank, I did some research on U.S. hunters numbers about a year ago pertaining to a thread on this forum, but for some reason never wrote it up. I probably have forgotten the exact numbers but here they are based on my memory. Remember this is for 2017 in the U.S. alone.
Total hunting licenses sold in the U.S.: 17,000,000 and change, out of 320,000,000.
Total number of shooters. Non hunters that shoot firearms in some type of sport: 83,000,000.
Total hunting licenses sold In Arkansas (where I am from and just moved back to) 340,000 with a population of barely 3,000,000
Total hunting licenses sold in Alabama: 520,000 with a population of 4,800,000
Total hunting licenses sold in Texas: 1.200,000 with a population of 28,000,000
Total hunting licenses sold in California 274,000 with a population of 34,000,000

These do not include special permits of any type or Federal stamps, only your basic license for that state.

So this just confirms your fear, which many of us have known for a long time. In some states though it is hard to see. It seems every family in Arkansas has at least one male that hunts deer or ducks.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Having giving up our family hunting cabin in the mountains of central Pennsylvania, I hunt primarily in the SE portion of the state on private lands. I belong to a deer/goose hunting club that has 50 members. I would surmise five hunt hard, the others only on opening day of gun season and a couple drives for doe. We recently recruited some new younger members as some of the old timers have basically quit or only hunting once a year. Two years ago only 15 out of the 50 even hunted. Pennsy license sales are down almost 30% from their peak. License sales used to be over a million, now down to around 620,000. From this chair, demographics are against the sport but game micro management resulting in a byzantine labyrinth of regulations isn't helping either. No Sunday hunting in the state is another nail in the coffin.

As far as the SCI convention, a buddy went out two years ago. He told me it's a good place to set up a thirty thousand dollar hunt and if that wasn't in your pay grade, you might as well stay home.

 

[Hank2211]

Having giving up our family hunting cabin in the mountains of central Pennsylvania, I hunt primarily in the SE portion of the state on private lands. I belong to a deer/goose hunting club that has 50 members. I would surmise five hunt hard, the others only on opening day of gun season and a couple drives for doe. We recently recruited some new younger members as some of the old timers have basically quit or only hunting once a year. Two years ago only 15 out of the 50 even hunted. Pennsy license sales are down almost 30% from their peak. License sales used to be over a million, now down to around 620,000. From this chair, demographics are against the sport but game micro management resulting in a byzantine labyrinth of regulations isn't helping either. No Sunday hunting in the state is another nail in the coffin.

As far as the SCI convention, a buddy went out two years ago. He told me it's a good place to set up a thirty thousand dollar hunt and if that wasn't in your pay grade, you might as well stay home.

@Hogpatrol, you make some very good points. One in particular caught my attention.

You say "a byzantine labyrinth of regulations isn't helping". I was recently looking at the hunting regulations booklet which our provincial fish and game department puts out every year. It acknowledges that rules and regulations governing hunting may be lengthy, arcane, difficult to understand, change from one year to the next, etc., but it states that the hunter has a responsibility to be aware of all of these rules and regulations. Why do these people do this? Is it to actually prevent people from hunting, or put them off the sport entirely? Why do we need a patchwork of rules and regulations which differ not only from state or province to state or province, but even from one wildlife management unit to another, even it they are side by side and there are no real differences between them?

What would be the result in North America if the only hunting rules which remained where those which were demonstrably necessary to protect life or wildlife? One result might well be that more people would be comfortable going out hunting.

 

[Hogpatrol]

@Hank2211
PA 1988/89 Hunting regulations book that fit in your license holder complete, 60 pages, free to anyone.

2018/19 same book, 75 8"x10" pages, complete, $6.00 for the printed version, or print out the free online pdf file.

Like in business, regulatory overreach discourages and prevents new entrants to the field. The sad part is, game commissions just don't get it.

 

[Hank2211]

@Hogpatrol, you are exactly right!

Regulators seem to know - not think or believe, but know - with absolute certainty that their regulations are all vital and necessary, and the fact that someone else has fewer or different regulations is of absolutely no concern to them.

I know I'm going to sound naive, if not downright idiotic, but surely these people are accountable to someone?

This might be something that SCI chapters could take up?

 

[Hank2211]

Now that we've completely taken over this thread, perhaps @africahunting could change the title to something about excessive regulation and its impact on hunter numbers? I think there would be some opinions on the subject, but people might not be looking because frankly, who cares that much about the SCI deadline?!

 

[edward]

im sure this will be my last visit to the convention,just going because i like reno and hate vagas,and wanted to say thanks and good bye to all who we have hunted with since 2002.doubt ill even renew my membership when it runs out as the mag has turned into a glorified new yorker add mag with little or no african hunting in it.d.s.c ,s game trail is far better.as we drive from idaho falls this visit will be based on weather permitting.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Now that we've completely taken over this thread, perhaps @africahunting could change the title to something about excessive regulation and its impact on hunter numbers?

Thx. Done.

 

[markm]

@Hank2211
PA 1988/89 Hunting regulations book that fit in your license holder complete, 60 pages, free to anyone.

2018/19 same book, 75 8"x10" pages, complete, $6.00 for the printed version, or print out the free online pdf file.

Like in business, regulatory overreach discourages and prevents new entrants to the field. The sad part is, game commissions just don't get it.

View attachment 257228

View attachment 257220

Our game commission will never change you cant make ginger bread cookies out of sh**

 

[Hogpatrol]

Our game commission will never change you cant make ginger bread cookies out of sh**

Especially when they are 100% appointed and controlled by the politicians which is the situation in PA.

Example: There hasn't been a license fee increase in seventeen years. Why? It has to go through the legislature and be signed by the governor. Only state to not have Sunday hunting. Why?
Same reason.

 

[Hank2211]

Our game commission will never change you cant make ginger bread cookies out of sh**

There must be something we can do. These people aren’t Gods - this is still a democracy.

One problem is that hunters are divided. In Alberta we have some old-timers who still feel scopes are an unfair edge . . . And who seem to be happy with all sorts of arcane rules. Maybe they don’t want hunter numbers to increase - who wants more competition.

But I think it comes down to leadership, and it’s here that SCI chapters could play a role.

 

[flatwater bill]

I see no hope of ever getting the hunting regs down to an understandable level again. The Game Depts are starting to reap what they have sown. The regs are so daunting, that many young people without a seasoned mentor, simply say to Hell with it. And quite frankly, it is not in most people's best interest to simplify. Not the Guide or PH.....they want to be needed. Not the veteran hunter...he knows the regs and doesn't need the competition. Not the biologist...he needs a job. Not the legislator....he thrives on making laws. So I don't see it ever getting better and I don't see SCI coming to the rescue. But we're talking about it....and that's a start....FWB

 

[Hank2211]

I see no hope of ever getting the hunting regs down to an understandable level again. The Game Depts are starting to reap what they have sown. The regs are so daunting, that many young people without a seasoned mentor, simply say to Hell with it. And quite frankly, it is not in most people's best interest to simplify. Not the Guide or PH.....they want to be needed. Not the veteran hunter...he knows the regs and doesn't need the competition. Not the biologist...he needs a job. Not the legislator....he thrives on making laws. So I don't see it ever getting better and I don't see SCI coming to the rescue. But we're talking about it....and that's a start....FWB

I was just looking at the Ontario hunting regs . . . an 80 page book, and they tell you that the book is only a summary, and you not only must read the regulations themselves (how many hundreds of pages must those be?), but you also have to look at municipalities, municipal districts, etc. all of which are allowed to have their own rules which also apply. On one side of a field it's shotguns only for deer while on the other you're in a different municipality and it's rifles only. Seriously? And they have the nerve to put in a letter from the "Minister" saying how supportive of hunting the government is!

I'm not sure I know the answer, but it can't be doing more of the same. We need to elect some people who have actually hunted . . . why can't local SCI chapters take a page from the NRA book? No, I don't mean the extreme stuff, I mean the stuff about identifying who is with us and who is not, and working to get more people on our side.

 

[Lee M]

We hunters have to take some of the blame for complicated regulations. We wanted more bow hunting opportunities and we got longer seasons, we are aging and can’t pull back a bow, now crossbows are legal. We want a separate bear bow season, it got added. We want our older hunters to have an early doe rifle when it’s warm and no snow, now added in Oct. We want an early muzzleloader season where percussion is legal, we got it. We want youth seasons and youth mentor. They are added. The list goes on and on. And all these new seasons add regulations.

I would like Sun hunting but some things are hard to change. PA fees are still a bargain and we have an abundance of public land, not all of which is overcrowded. Glass is more than half full in my opinion.

 

[Hogpatrol]

@Lee M , Agree on pretty much everything you posted. When you say, we are to blame, that's only partially true. The game commission, like a certain political party, is engaged in the futile exercise of trying to please everyone. Won't work, can't work, will never work but they keep piling on more and more "regulations" in the attempt. Where the the labyrinth really begins is with WMUs. Something's legal in one WMU but one inch over the line, it's illegal. Carrying a shotgun or rifle in deer season, must wear red UNLESS you are carrying a flintlock and wearing a buckskin jacket with a coonskin cap. It's ridiculous. Back in the day there were ZERO WMUs. Now there are 23, every one an exercise in micro-management that constantly changes and in a majority of them hasn't worked.
Bottom line in PA, until Sunday hunting is approved, the regulations will increase to please an ever dwindling number of hunters and license sales and hunter numbers will decline. They can't see the forest for the trees. It's truly sad that this sport, at least in our state, is dying.