Fair chase vs game ranches

[rookhawk]

I had to look very hard to find free range hunting. It costs a lot. You're paying higher rates and you're probably in Zim, Nam, or elsewhere.

A fence might make finding the animals hard but they are a known and counted commodity. Given enough time and resources, you'll find them.

I find you have to pay a lot more to find a place with no guarantees! In fact, if you pay enough you might not kill anything at all!

But seriously, it sounds like you want a Zim hunt through the parks. You'll pay $30-$40k all in per visit.

 

[Philip Glass]

Erich
Great questions and glad you are preparing for your dream hunt. You must decide for yourself if the fence changes the flavor of the hunt for you because in Africa the game ranches are huge and you will likely not ever see the fence except when you enter. It will be fair chase I'll assure you. You have to divide your choice of animals into plains game and dangerous game because the cost and location can be far different. So croc hippo, buff are DG and will require a higher daily rate for likely a 14 day hunt. I love your idea to hunt the Lord Derby Eland but that is up in Central African countries like Cameroon and a very specialized hunt.
All the PG can be hunted all over RSA and Namibia and there are a host of great outfitters. I suggest you come to Dallas or SCI next year and plan your dream!
Regards,
Philip

 

[Philip Glass]

Hi Bruce, I appreciate your input. I guess for me it's already in my head how I'd like it to go. I don't really mind going to any country in Africa, for me it's all about the animals and their natural habitats. I definately want to hunt wild animals not farm raised but I don't want to offend anyone or give the wrong impression. I have read several other blogs and discussions on the subject and I know people can be sensitive. I wouldn't want to offend an outfitter by phrasing a question a certain way so I'm trying to learn as much as I can until I'm ready to start planning an actual trip. I would hate to jump into planning a trip and be ignorant of how things work or if I was say asking to hunt an animal in the wild that isn't native to that particular country or was protected in some way. So I'm going to try to keep picking the brains of people who have been there or who are actual PHs or outfitters until you all get tired of my questions and stop answering me lol.

Erich,
So we've discussed fenced versus not fenced but the next question that has to be asked is how many villagers are in the area? So we all want to hunt where there is no fence it seems. Me too. However depending on where you go you may never be out of sight of villagers and their cattle.
Trade off. Fence=no villagers no cattle. No Fence=? What is there? What animals are there, how many days on average to get a trophy animal(yes that's right days per animal not animals per day), how many people live there?
All I'm getting at is you must ask lots of questions and there still are likely surprises likely ahead of you.
Regards,
Philip

 

[Erich]

Erich,
So we've discussed fenced versus not fenced but the next question that has to be asked is how many villagers are in the area? So we all want to hunt where there is no fence it seems. Me too. However depending on where you go you may never be out of sight of villagers and their cattle.
Trade off. Fence=no villagers no cattle. No Fence=? What is there? What animals are there, how many days on average to get a trophy animal(yes that's right days per animal not animals per day), how many people live there?
All I'm getting at is you must ask lots of questions and there still are likely surprises likely ahead of you.
Regards,
Philip

I fully expected days per animal, I took a full week to find my moose and almost didn't get one. I also took a full week in Wyoming to get one mule deer and one antelope, almost didn't get the antelope, I got lucky on the last day with a surprise 200yd shot. Part of the learning for me is how it is over there, in New Hampshire there are huge areas of wilderness to hunt. In Wyoming we were on a 50,000 acre cattle ranch, there were cattle and barbed wire for the cattle but we could watch the deer hop right over and the antelope sneak under. So I guess I'm looking for similar in Africa, head off into the wild.

 

[rookhawk]

True enough. Here is the thing you must ask yourself about fences no matter how big they are. If I own the resource as a rancher, I care for, inventory, manage and PRICE my game. You can be DARNED sure I know what I have in the same way that Walmart knows their physical inventory at every store within pretty impressive accuracy.

Now imagine going to a 10,000 or 40,000 acre high fence hunting area. The owner has worked out a deal with the PH to allow him to purchase that animal, lets say a Kudu, for a set price. The PH is going to sell your that trophy fee for a markup profit. They (or at least the owner) knows how many Kudu they have, how big they are, where they typically frequent, and what their value is.

So the scenarios that can go wrong here that may upset some people:

1.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because there is more profit in them for the PH
2.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because the PH cannot afford the surcharge the owner demands for a 60"
3.) The owner knows they have only 48" and under Kudu but isn't going to tell the PH that because he hopes you'll settle and take the shot anyway.
4.) The PH knows that they only have 48" and under Kudu but is confident he can convince you to take the shot and he will make more money than showing you Kudu on other property that cost him more resulting in less profit.
5.) The hunt can be effectively canned: The owner knows he owns 68 Kudu and that even though he has 20,000 acres, his ranch scouts report that they are in two herds found 90%+ of the time on these two stretches of the property of less than 500 acres. (where the food and water is at perhaps)

It is in essence, scripted. While it might be big and it might be cool, it is not the same as going for a hunt on public land in the Western US and allowing preparation and luck to converge.

If the mere potential for the above scenarios cause you to take pause, you will end up:

1.) Paying about $1200 a day in daily rates for a camp in the middle of nowhere on remote land
2.) You will pre-pay all your trophy fees at a rate higher than RSA fees, and you may not even see your animals.
3.) You will tip a lot more because you have to have about a dozen people in your entourage to keep you fed and alive in such a hunt.
4.) You will take many unimpressive animals because 10 to 21 days is not enough time to find trophy animals for the species in which you had to pre-purchase hunting tags.
5.) You'll be sad because you didn't harvest several animals on your bag because you couldn't get close enough...money out the window.
6.) You'll pay more for travel, lodging before and after the hunt, and airfare because you're going to be headed to a place that is extremely remote.
7.) Your total hunt costs will easily be 300% of the equivalent hunt costs on a fenced area in RSA.
8.) You'll live in a fly camp tent with no cell service or electricity for 300km or more.

If you enjoy getting kicked in the groin, and if you enjoy smaller trophies and more work and less certainty and more costs, then go with scenario two. Otherwise, pick scenario one and you can virtually guarantee the best trophies if you pay enough money whether in Texas or in Africa.

Realize with scenario two you also have that very remote chance of harvesting the new world record, that beast that was unknown to anyone and never seen by man before. The odds of that happening on a fenced ranch are zilch because no businessman (rancher) is going to let you shoot the new world record kudu for the $1000 fee he is charging the PH for a Kudu that he is going to resell to you for $1500 as a trophy fee.

I chose the road less travelled myself and it made all the difference for me but I'd say that 90% of safari hunters would not have taken the same path.

 

[Erich]

True enough. Here is the thing you must ask yourself about fences no matter how big they are. If I own the resource as a rancher, I care for, inventory, manage and PRICE my game. You can be DARNED sure I know what I have in the same way that Walmart knows their physical inventory at every store within pretty impressive accuracy.

Now imagine going to a 10,000 or 40,000 acre high fence hunting area. The owner has worked out a deal with the PH to allow him to purchase that animal, lets say a Kudu, for a set price. The PH is going to sell your that trophy fee for a markup profit. They (or at least the owner) knows how many Kudu they have, how big they are, where they typically frequent, and what their value is.

So the scenarios that can go wrong here that may upset some people:

1.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because there is more profit in them for the PH
2.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because the PH cannot afford the surcharge the owner demands for a 60"
3.) The owner knows they have only 48" and under Kudu but isn't going to tell the PH that because he hopes you'll settle and take the shot anyway.
4.) The PH knows that they only have 48" and under Kudu but is confident he can convince you to take the shot and he will make more money than showing you Kudu on other property that cost him more resulting in less profit.
5.) The hunt can be effectively canned: The owner knows he owns 68 Kudu and that even though he has 20,000 acres, his ranch scouts report that they are in two herds found 90%+ of the time on these two stretches of the property of less than 500 acres. (where the food and water is at perhaps)

It is in essence, scripted. While it might be big and it might be cool, it is not the same as going for a hunt on public land in the Western US and allowing preparation and luck to converge.

If the mere potential for the above scenarios cause you to take pause, you will end up:

1.) Paying about $1200 a day in daily rates for a camp in the middle of nowhere on remote land
2.) You will pre-pay all your trophy fees at a rate higher than RSA fees, and you may not even see your animals.
3.) You will tip a lot more because you have to have about a dozen people in your entourage to keep you fed and alive in such a hunt.
4.) You will take many unimpressive animals because 10 to 21 days is not enough time to find trophy animals for the species in which you had to pre-purchase hunting tags.
5.) You'll be sad because you didn't harvest several animals on your bag because you couldn't get close enough...money out the window.
6.) You'll pay more for travel, lodging before and after the hunt, and airfare because you're going to be headed to a place that is extremely remote.
7.) Your total hunt costs will easily be 300% of the equivalent hunt costs on a fenced area in RSA.
8.) You'll live in a fly camp tent with no cell service or electricity for 300km or more.

If you enjoy getting kicked in the groin, and if you enjoy smaller trophies and more work and less certainty and more costs, then go with scenario two. Otherwise, pick scenario one and you can virtually guarantee the best trophies if you pay enough money whether in Texas or in Africa.

Realize with scenario two you also have that very remote chance of harvesting the new world record, that beast that was unknown to anyone and never seen by man before. The odds of that happening on a fenced ranch are zilch because no businessman (rancher) is going to let you shoot the new world record kudu for the $1000 fee he is charging the PH for a Kudu that he is going to resell to you for $1500 as a trophy fee.

I chose the road less travelled myself and it made all the difference for me but I'd say that 90% of safari hunters would not have taken the same path.

I think I would definately rather do option 2. If I wanted a guaranteed size trophy I'd just buy a mount and not go. I'd much rather spend 10 plus days with no cell service or electricity to hunt a true wild animal. I'd also rather shoot an animal with small, broken or deformed horns that we actually found in the wild then anything else. I'd also still get the mount done.

 

[daved]

It all boils down to what YOU consider free range. If a whitetail deer on a Kansas cattle ranch is free range , then South Africa has huge free range areas for many indigenous species .

If a kudu has a natural range of 2 square miles and you're hunting him on 20-65 square miles ( typical size of a SA private game reserve) is that free range for a animal reintroduced into its natural range 20 years ago ?
DEFINATELY fair chase as you cannot guarantee success or that you're going to get that nice bull you saw with the last client?

On properties of that size you don't know what you're gonna get and on the low fence properties making up the conservancies , you DEFINATELY don't know what you're gonna get.

South Africa is a big country with many different areas and outfitters and you can't paint them all with the same brush.

The other option is wilderness areas in Mozambique , Zimbabwe , Zambia and Tanzania. These hunts will be considerably more expensive.

Best of luck finding your hunt of a life time.
If you are looking at a free range / fair chase experience in South Africa. They do exist.
Warm regards
Dave

 

[BRICKBURN]

................

Best of luck finding your hunt of a life time. If you are looking at a free range / fair chase experience in South Africa. They do exist.
........

Been there, done that.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It all boils down to what YOU consider free range. If a whitetail deer on a Kansas cattle ranch is free range , then South Africa has huge free range areas for many indigenous species .

If a kudu has a natural range of 2 square miles and you're hunting him on 20-65 square miles ( typical size of a SA private game reserve) is that free range for a animal reintroduced into its natural range 20 years ago ?
DEFINATELY fair chase as you cannot guarantee success or that you're going to get that nice bull you saw with the last client?

On properties of that size you don't know what you're gonna get and on the low fence properties making up the conservancies , you DEFINATELY don't know what you're gonna get.

South Africa is a big country with many different areas and outfitters and you can't paint them all with the same brush.

The other option is wilderness areas in Mozambique , Zimbabwe , Zambia and Tanzania. These hunts will be considerably more expensive.

Best of luck finding your hunt of a life time.
If you are looking at a free range / fair chase experience in South Africa. They do exist.
Warm regards
Dave

Spot on Dave.

 

[firehuntfish]

Lets call a spade a spade sitting in a blind at a waterhole waiting for the animals to come and drink then shooting it isn't fair chase or at the back of crusier in a high fenced game farm. These methods were taken up by safari operators to cater for overseas hunter's was never practised in africa and neither would l hunt like that in Zimbabwe there are rules in place to prevent such practices mostly in South africa,Namibia and when Botswana was open to hunting because South african game farmers do release tame animals into their high fenced properties.

Hmmmm... A couple of controversial statements there for sure. That's why I love this forum!

With all due respect to your views, I could not disagree more with your opinion of hunting blinds/water sources etc.., As apex predators, we have learned that hiding up in a tree, behind a bush, near a water or food source, or simply utilizing camo clothing is much more effective than chasing the animal around open ground with a bow or spear screaming..... Would it be a bigger sense of accomplishment to take an animal by chasing it down over open ground?? Probably, but not nearly as effective....That is why nature gave cheetahs the ability to run 70 mph and humans 15 mph(on a good day)... I personally hunt utilizing all different kinds of methods and weapons, and they all have different levels of challenge and reward. Yet, I still love all of it. Again, to each his own... Every experience doesn't have to be the ultimate hunting challenge to enjoy it. Regardless, you are kidding yourself if you think hunting over a naturally occurring grazing pasture, a stand of fruit trees, or any other natural attractant is any different than a pile of alfalfa or a concrete watering hole as long as it is being used by the hunter as an attractor used to improve the chance of success. The only thing different is the perception of it in your own mind.

Challenge, fair chase, and sense of accomplishment are relative terms and very subjective when applied to hunters & hunting. If a particular hunting method is not for you, fine, but I think it's quite unfair to apply such broad, generalized conclusions to a method of hunting that you don't personally care to practice. In my lifetime, I've shot hundreds of game animals from tree stands, hides, and blinds with both rifle and bow. I've shot far fewer spot & stalking open ground which I personally prefer. However, my adrenalin still surges and I can feel my heartbeat in my ears when a shooter appears in front of my hide at 30 yards, bow in hand. I can't say that I get anywhere near the same rush from a wild, free-range antelope or whitetail with a rifle in hand at 200 yards. But, that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the fact that it may do it for you....

And as much as South African game farmers releasing "tame" animals into their high fence properties, I would caution generalizing that as common practice. I suppose it happens, but nowhere that I have ever hunted in the RSA... Also fairly easy to avoid with some good research and sticking to a well-known reputable outfit.

 

[BSO Dave]

Lets call a spade a spade sitting in a blind at a waterhole waiting for the animals to come and drink then shooting it isn't fair chase

I take it that you are not a bow hunter?

Like FHF said very well IMO, it's all perspective.... I think the high fence inference gets a bad rap because many Americans equate it as hunting in small pens or enclosures that are common is some areas of the US which offer guaranteed hunts. Night and day from the game ranches in RSA.... I didn't encounter ANY tame animals on any of my hunts. I hunted from blinds and spot and stalk. I shot a couple of animals from the hides and then decided to try some stalking. After about 3 dozen blown stalks, I got back in the blind and finally got a shot at my impala. Spot & stalk was a humbling experience high fence or not.

 

[Royal27]

I had to look very hard to find free range hunting. It costs a lot. You're paying higher rates and you're probably in Zim, Nam, or elsewhere.

I have a different take on this and I guess it comes down to what do you consider to be free range hunting?

If you mean you want to have a hunt on 300k hectares that nobody but you can hunt while you are there and it is out in the middle of nowhere, then I won't argue. That takes some looking and will cost relatively more money.

If by free range you mean that the animals are not behind a high fence and can be hunted in their natural range and can move as they please. Then that can be found many places and without breaking the bank.

[QUOTE A fence might make finding the animals hard but they are a known and counted commodity. Given enough time and resources, you'll find them.[/QUOTE]

This is true anywhere, behind a fence or open range. Time, money, and at least one animal is all it takes.

But seriously, it sounds like you want a Zim hunt through the parks. You'll pay $30-$40k all in per visit.

I love Zim and want to go again, but a hunt through Parks isn't the only way, nor place for free range hunting, nor do you have to pay that much in order to do it. In fact, I'd say that doing this is for someone who is extremely adventurous and willing to take big risks, such as yourself, rather than the average hunter. I personally don't want an animal behind every bush, but I don't want to go somewhere and find nothing there either.

All comes down to what each invidual's definitions of free range are, what their risk tolerance is, what they want to hunt, and what kind of experience they are looking for.[/QUOTE]

 

[CAustin]

I've done type hunts in South Africa and both are great!

 

[enysse]

Fair chase means a lot of things to different people. I know a lot of people that say they hunt fair chase whitetails. Their property has sanctuary which is set up for bedding cover and they grow food plots, that have food on them 24/7 during the warm part of the year. They usually get nice deer every year, because their property is different from the neighboring property that is mostly agriculture or mature timber with no understory. Yet these same people won't hunt a property in South Africa because it is fenced. A fenced property of 5000+ acres with cover, hills and a few water sources is actually challenging, especially if you leave the truck and hunt it on foot.

I think TMS's free range sable hunt is REAL VALUE and maybe the first hunt you should do, but don't overlook those hunts in South Africa and Namibia either. These outfitters wouldn't have return hunters and successful business if they were offering tamed animal hunts, again do the research and find out if the animals historical lived in the area you want to hunt.

 

[Erich]

I have a different take on this and I guess it comes down to what do you consider to be free range hunting?

If you mean you want to have a hunt on 300k hectares that nobody but you can hunt while you are there and it is out in the middle of nowhere, then I won't argue. That takes some looking and will cost relatively more money.

If by free range you mean that the animals are not behind a high fence and can be hunted in their natural range and can move as they please. Then that can be found many places and without breaking the bank.

[QUOTE A fence might make finding the animals hard but they are a known and counted commodity. Given enough time and resources, you'll find them.[/QUOTE]

This is true anywhere, behind a fence or open range. Time, money, and at least one animal is all it takes.



I love Zim and want to go again, but a hunt through Parks isn't the only way, nor place for free range hunting, nor do you have to pay that much in order to do it. In fact, I'd say that doing this is for someone who is extremely adventurous and willing to take big risks, such as yourself, rather than the average hunter. I personally don't want an animal behind every bush, but I don't want to go somewhere and find nothing there either.

All comes down to what each invidual's definitions of free range are, what their risk tolerance is, what they want to hunt, and what kind of experience they are looking for.

The adventure is a huge part of it for me. I'm definately looking for a guide/PH/outfitter who knows and scouts the area but I don't want it to be like some scenarios I have read from people that the animals are always in a particular area. If Africa wasn't so far id ever more then happy to go scout myself to find where they animals go and what their patterns are. I'm not opposed to ambush type hunting I believe it's no different then when lions or crocs wait at a water source for prey. It's a natural hunting tactic. I will want to be hunting wild game and if the land is privately owned or public doesn't matter to me as long as the animals are truly wild. For instance my dad lives on a 30 acre farm in New Jersey and deer are there all the time for the corn and the pond. I'll hunt there because I know that's where the deer are but those same deer could walk to Pennsylvania or Maine if they wanted to. If the kudu are always grazing on a particular piece of land is fine by me but I wouldn't want to hunt a bought and paid for animal. To me personally I'd feel like I was hunting a steer on a cattle ranch. That's the main reason I haven't gone for American buffalo yet, the majority of buffalo hunting I have found are on ranches where they are bred and raised. I will only hunt one when they have reached sustainable numbers and when the animal I'm hunting has been born and raised in the wild and is free to go from Canada down to New Mexico. I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone else or any other ways of doing anything. I'm simply trying to convey what I personally enjoy for hunting to get the best idea of what is available.

 

[Erich]

Fair chase means a lot of things to different people. I know a lot of people that say they hunt fair chase whitetails. Their property has sanctuary which is set up for bedding cover and they grow food plots, that have food on them 24/7 during the warm part of the year. They usually get nice deer every year, because their property is different from the neighboring property that is mostly agriculture or mature timber with no understory. Yet these same people won't hunt a property in South Africa because it is fenced. A fenced property of 5000+ acres with cover, hills and a few water sources is actually challenging, especially if you leave the truck and hunt it on foot.

I think TMS's free range sable hunt is REAL VALUE and maybe the first hunt you should do, but don't overlook those hunts in South Africa and Namibia either. These outfitters wouldn't have return hunters and successful business if they were offering tamed animal hunts, again do the research and find out if the animals historical lived in the area you want to hunt.

Absolutely, I have no issue with managing property to be good habitat for game, that's a great part of the conservation effort in my mind. If someone can maintain thousands of acres of land as prime habitat is expect to find great animals there. Mostly I want animals that have been born and raised in the wild and that would be free to walk to Egypt if the mood struck them. Even if you have the best habitat for white tails here in the states, if they are over hunted they will move elsewhere.

 

[ActionBob]

True enough. Here is the thing you must ask yourself about fences no matter how big they are. If I own the resource as a rancher, I care for, inventory, manage and PRICE my game. You can be DARNED sure I know what I have in the same way that Walmart knows their physical inventory at every store within pretty impressive accuracy.

Now imagine going to a 10,000 or 40,000 acre high fence hunting area. The owner has worked out a deal with the PH to allow him to purchase that animal, lets say a Kudu, for a set price. The PH is going to sell your that trophy fee for a markup profit. They (or at least the owner) knows how many Kudu they have, how big they are, where they typically frequent, and what their value is.

So the scenarios that can go wrong here that may upset some people:

1.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because there is more profit in them for the PH
2.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because the PH cannot afford the surcharge the owner demands for a 60"
3.) The owner knows they have only 48" and under Kudu but isn't going to tell the PH that because he hopes you'll settle and take the shot anyway.
4.) The PH knows that they only have 48" and under Kudu but is confident he can convince you to take the shot and he will make more money than showing you Kudu on other property that cost him more resulting in less profit.
5.) The hunt can be effectively canned: The owner knows he owns 68 Kudu and that even though he has 20,000 acres, his ranch scouts report that they are in two herds found 90%+ of the time on these two stretches of the property of less than 500 acres. (where the food and water is at perhaps)

It is in essence, scripted. While it might be big and it might be cool, it is not the same as going for a hunt on public land in the Western US and allowing preparation and luck to converge.

If the mere potential for the above scenarios cause you to take pause, you will end up:

1.) Paying about $1200 a day in daily rates for a camp in the middle of nowhere on remote land
2.) You will pre-pay all your trophy fees at a rate higher than RSA fees, and you may not even see your animals.
3.) You will tip a lot more because you have to have about a dozen people in your entourage to keep you fed and alive in such a hunt.
4.) You will take many unimpressive animals because 10 to 21 days is not enough time to find trophy animals for the species in which you had to pre-purchase hunting tags.
5.) You'll be sad because you didn't harvest several animals on your bag because you couldn't get close enough...money out the window.
6.) You'll pay more for travel, lodging before and after the hunt, and airfare because you're going to be headed to a place that is extremely remote.
7.) Your total hunt costs will easily be 300% of the equivalent hunt costs on a fenced area in RSA.
8.) You'll live in a fly camp tent with no cell service or electricity for 300km or more.

If you enjoy getting kicked in the groin, and if you enjoy smaller trophies and more work and less certainty and more costs, then go with scenario two. Otherwise, pick scenario one and you can virtually guarantee the best trophies if you pay enough money whether in Texas or in Africa.

Realize with scenario two you also have that very remote chance of harvesting the new world record, that beast that was unknown to anyone and never seen by man before. The odds of that happening on a fenced ranch are zilch because no businessman (rancher) is going to let you shoot the new world record kudu for the $1000 fee he is charging the PH for a Kudu that he is going to resell to you for $1500 as a trophy fee.

I chose the road less travelled myself and it made all the difference for me but I'd say that 90% of safari hunters would not have taken the same path.

rookhawk I think you gave extremes and I'm assuming you were a bit tongue in cheek... But you make your points.

@Erich
The reality I experienced is somewhere in the middle. But I don't plan to do much more big game in south Africa, and if I do, I will be very careful who I do it with. I also don't think the game in the wild areas is always as sparse as some indicate, but definitely more of a challenge! The rates and total costs are not as extreme either... I did my elephant hunt for $10,000 day fees for 12 full hunting days, all in country road transfers, 13 nights, arrival and departure days, no extra charges at all. Not even trophy prep or delivery to taxidermist... However, having paid those day fees, i was allowed to shoot extra animals for very reasonable trophy fees, $4000 for the buffalo and that was real wild hunting. No size limits or up charges. Challenging hunt but my most memorable!

On the other hand I feel I was sold a lot of BS on my supposedly wild South Africa lion hunt, just can't prove it easily. And that was with a very reputable outfitter and well known PH, both with great references. And after tallying up everything it was over $60,000 for the 14 day hunt with lion, buffalo and several PG. For that amount it actually gets pretty close to the cost of a 14 day Tanzania hunt... There are some deals in Tanzania this year with some of the oil guys having cancelled out. I suspect there are great deals everywhere now, with a little shopping around... And like I pointed out before, TMS has that Sable up for $400/day with a $3500 TF... And I know there are deals in Zimbabwe as well... A lot of the real wild areas do have high day fees and some have high government licence fees, but that is often offset by very reasonable trophy fees... So if you go to a good area and hunt very hard, your per animal cost will be similar to South Africa... And you will have a real wild area hunt like you say you are looking for.

 

[ActionBob]

@Erich Another thing you should be aware of is to read between the lines on the hunt reports. We all have different ideas of what a good hunt is to us personally.

I have actually read some very positive reports where I was very happy for the hunter writing it, but also made a mental note to never hunt with that outfit or PH because it was not what I would personally be looking for.

Different strokes for different folks!

 

[BRICKBURN]

..................

So the scenarios that can go wrong here that may upset some people:

1.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because there is more profit in them for the PH
2.) They take you to the smaller Kudu because the PH cannot afford the surcharge the owner demands for a 60"
3.) The owner knows they have only 48" and under Kudu but isn't going to tell the PH that because he hopes you'll settle and take the shot anyway.
4.) The PH knows that they only have 48" and under Kudu but is confident he can convince you to take the shot and he will make more money than showing you Kudu on other property that cost him more resulting in less profit.
5.) The hunt can be effectively canned: The owner knows he owns 68 Kudu and that even though he has 20,000 acres, his ranch scouts report that they are in two herds found 90%+ of the time on these two stretches of the property of less than 500 acres. (where the food and water is at perhaps)

It is in essence, scripted. While it might be big and it might be cool, it is not the same as going for a hunt on public land in the Western US and allowing preparation and luck to converge.
................

Just going to have fun for the sake of discussion here.

If you think this whole little script can not happen without a fence you are deluded.

Scripts are written for every last safari. Some are rewritten during the hunt while others, no matter where you are, have a predetermined outcome.

Go read some hunt reports right here on AH about hunters being SOLD remote hunts in SHOT OUT / POACHED OUT areas. They see nothing and shoot nothing, literally.
You think those crooked bastards did not know exactly what was going on and what story they sold to the hunter. Totally Free Range areas, no fences. All the possibilities in the world, right?
It's no concern if you stick to the script with a less than knowledgable hunter.
"The rains were late this year". "The game has not moved down yet". "The Lion pride moved in at the end of last season" It's just unfortunate, that's hunting.
"The big one is just around the corner", Keep telling yourself that line of your script.

Have you heard the one about the "Damage causing Lion coming from Botswana"? It's killing the cattle on the neighbours farm. It's a once in a lifetime chance. Do you want it?

If the high paying client who has an Elephant booked next week wants a Kudu, do you think you (the plains game hunter this week) is going to be taken down the road where that 60 inch Kudu hangs out in that big wide open concession? (They tend to like food and water even outside the fences and are also territorial)
Drop some Lucerne or Salt anyone?
How's about some domestic critter to keep the carnivore close for the hunter?

How's about a YEAR ROUND feeding program? Keeps those cats coming back for an easy meal because cats are lazy. It also keeps them away from the nearest farmers goats. Expensive, not really. Just another way of using the meat to economic benefit.

Unless someone just purchased a shot out concession anywhere, they know what is on it or they are idiots and will be out of business shortly.

In some countries there will also be a quota they HAD to purchase from the government.. You think the Outfitter who already had to pay for the quota does not want you to shoot a Kudu? any Kudu, to get it off his account and on to yours? (Where do you think the end of season deals are motivated from)
Have you heard the latest from USFWS that apparently they think these third world countries that have little money could be corruptly OVER ISSUING QUOTA in these wide open concessions. The USFWS also seem to think that these same governments have not done a proper census of the critters present in their countries wide open spaces. (Thus far, focusing on Lion and Elephant)


Now that we are past the innuendo and delusion of unfenced areas being so pure lets get back to it.

Dreams and Nightmares can happen anywhere. There is no geographic restriction on them and they are certainly not held in or excluded by a fence.

Do your research and find a reputable, honest Outfitter and enjoy your hunt.

 

[ActionBob]

And it really sucks when you do that research and find out you were sold a pile a crap.

As far as USFWS, how many boots do they have on the ground trying to verify facts before they put up the restrictions?