4 bore Bolt action

[Grumpy gumpy]

Frederick Courteney Selous used a 4-bore single shot black powder muzzleloader (a Hollis) to take over 75 elephant. He came to loathe the thing and wished he had never used it. "They kicked most frightfully, and in my case the punishment I received from these guns has affected my nerves to such an extent as to have materially influenced my shooting ever since, and I am heartily sorry I ever had anything to do with them." So much for the gentle push of black powder or not noticing recoil while actually hunting.

As someone who shoots a lot of the "holy black" my saying is 'black powder doesn’t kick like smokeless, it shoves you gently….like a train".
And from memory wasn’t FC Selous flinch caused by one one of his bearers double loading it, and it actually injured him.
Gumpy

 

[Red Leg]

As someone who shoots a lot of the "holy black" my saying is 'black powder doesn’t kick like smokeless, it shoves you gently….like a train".
And from memory wasn’t FC Selous flinch caused by one one of his bearers double loading it, and it actually injured him.
Gumpy

That incident did happen, but just for clarity's sake why don't you read again - slowly - his exact quote one more time.

"They kicked most frightfully, and in my case the punishment I received from these guns has affected my nerves to such an extent as to have materially influenced my shooting ever since, and I am heartily sorry I ever had anything to do with them."

 

[Tex .416]

This is two 4 Bore rifle cartridges either side of a .600NE .

View attachment 726496

I admit it, I am not tough enough to pull the trigger on that.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

That incident did happen, but just for clarity's sake why don't you read again - slowly - his exact quote one more time.

"They kicked most frightfully, and in my case the punishment I received from these guns has affected my nerves to such an extent as to have materially influenced my shooting ever since, and I am heartily sorry I ever had anything to do with them."

Touchy , aren’t you
Perhaps you should read my comment again , slowly

And from memory wasn’t FC Selous flinch caused by one of his bearers double loading it, and it actually injured him.
Gumpy

I was referring to his flinch that he developed, no one but you questioned your quote of him speaking of the use of the four bore
Gumpy

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I admit it, I am not tough enough to pull the trigger on that.

I’ve got a fourbore cartridge here that some idiot dropped on the projectile end and then tried to dig it back out of the case causing the end to be flared, I was going to build a "large" kinetic hammer to try to knock it out, but I’m not sure how easy that will be to do without damaging it more
Gumpy

 

[Flbt]

As someone who shoots a lot of the "holy black" my saying is 'black powder doesn’t kick like smokeless, it shoves you gently….like a train".
And from memory wasn’t FC Selous flinch caused by one one of his bearers double loading it, and it actually injured him.
Gumpy

I had a 10 gage sxs Bp one of the loads the guy I got it from was 135 gr 2f and the power measure full of shot.
With the stell but plate there was nothing gently about that shove especially the 2 times loaded with the measure full of # one buck that the dammed thing dubbed on me.

 

[Sarg]

I’ve got a fourbore cartridge here that some idiot dropped on the projectile end and then tried to dig it back out of the case causing the end to be flared, I was going to build a "large" kinetic hammer to try to knock it out, but I’m not sure how easy that will be to do without damaging it more
Gumpy

That’s terrible, someone dropped one of mine to, real bugger, lasts 100+ years without damage & a plonker drops it !

I pull one offs by drilling case size hole in a solid piece of wood, like sledge hammer handle (not big enough in your case) tape it in & whack over a bench corner or what ever, have a couple of blankets or box full of scrape cloth to catch projectile, with the weight of a 4 bore ball it shouldn’t take but one or two ?

If it’s a ball just turn it over & place back in ?

 

[matt85]

Could it be made? Yes.

It would be an EXTREMELY expensive project that would yield a fairly impractical firearm.

If you make it and it is made properly (weight and balance), id be willing to shoot it.

 

[Red Leg]

I had a 10 gage sxs Bp one of the loads the guy I got it from was 135 gr 2f and the power measure full of shot.
With the stell but plate there was nothing gently about that shove especially the 2 times loaded with the measure full of # one buck that the dammed thing dubbed on me.

Well duh. I was trying to be facetious rather than literal. But your experiences exactly frame my thoughts about the utility of a four bore bolt action.

Rather than a pintle gun mount as used with Ma Deuce, I would think the little two wheel cart used by the Russians for their Maxim MGs would be the best solution for a long day trying to walk down a buff or buffalo.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

That’s terrible, someone dropped one of mine to, real bugger, lasts 100+ years without damage & a plonker drops it ! I pull one offs by drilling case size hole in a solid piece of wood, like sledge hammer handle (not big enough in your case) tape it in & whack over a bench corner or what ever, have a couple of blankets or box full of scrape cloth to catch projectile, with the weight of a 4 bore ball it shouldn’t take but one or two ? If it’s a ball just turn it over & place back in ?

As you can see it is right in there.
And a photo next to a 300 Roy and win mag
Gumpy

 

[Sarg]

View attachment 726599View attachment 726600
As you can see it is right in there.
And a photo next to a 300 Roy and win mag
Gumpy

Arr is that an Imperial Cartridge Co 4 Bore made for London Guns ?

I reckon give the hole in a plank a try, it will slide forward.

That is very unusual to happen like that, as if loaded with BP & a little wadding the projectile can’t go that far in, is it a Dummy or did Imperial load Nitro for Black loads, should still be wads I suppose ?

 

[Flbt]

Well duh. I was trying to be facetious rather than literal. But your experiences exactly frame my thoughts about the utility of a four bore bolt action.

Rather than a pintle gun mount as used with Ma Deuce, I would think the little two wheel cart used by the Russians for their Maxim MGs would be the best solution for a long day trying to walk down a buff or buffalo.View attachment 726597

I actually enjoyed the gun and a 12 sxs bp
My daughter when she was little about 5
Like the Bp guns more than cf.
If I squirrel or rabbit hunted with the Bp she wanted to go.
So as long as she was interested I used them.
Even came up with a light load using old hornet nest wadding to let her shoot them
50gr will about the same shot.
I loaded it like the old guy around here said to that only used Bp since he came back from ww2.
My dad told me he never saw him with a modern gun except his 1917 colt that he kept incase some one showed up uninvited.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I had a 10 gage sxs Bp one of the loads the guy I got it from was 135 gr 2f and the power measure full of shot.
With the stell but plate there was nothing gently about that shove especially the 2 times loaded with the measure full of # one buck that the dammed thing dubbed on me.

I have a Pedersoli double s x s 10 gauge BP shotgun, Super Deluxe made between 1980-1983.

The first time I shot it I used math and loaded it 1:1; volume weight: ~135 grains 2F Black Powder, ~135 grains #8 shot.

After the first touch of the trigger firing the right barrel, I didn't want to touch the second trigger.....but I did....the recoil sent the back of the front trigger into my trigger finger. Put a gash in my trigger finger that took 2 weeks to heal.

While I disassembled the barrels from the stock for cleaning that's when I discovered it was rated for a max load of 109 grains. By volume I only load sixty to eighty grains of 3F with same volume of shot. Eighty grains for patch and round ball.

A fun gun I have used to hunt: dove, quail, pheasant, ducks, geese, squirrel, turkey, and deer.

 

[318AE]

I’ve read that the oldest gun in North America is a Spanish wall gun or hackbut from the Coronado expedition. It’s only slightly sub-gauge to what you’re envisioning, and weighs about 40 lbs. It gets its name from a hook you can put on the outside of the wall you’re defending, to control the recoil.

Once you complete this rifle, please post your hunt report, and tip your gun bearers handsomely.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

While 4 bores do have considerable recoil, a word must be made about F.C Sealous’s pair of 4 bores.

It is natural that they would kick monstrously. Because they weren’t purpose built 4 bore elephant guns. They were Isaac Hollis & Sons duck guns intended to flock shoot large numbers of Egyptian geese with AAA or BB shot. Originally built with 40” barrels, these had the barrels shortened by European traders and were then sold to native hunters as “elephant guns”. Their final weight was only 12 LB. That’s even light for a .600 Nitro Express.

Adding to this, Sealous himself admits that he never put a measured charge of black powder into the weapons. But rather just loaded them with “A handful of coarse black powder commonly sold to the natives in 5 LB trading bags.” He goes on to say that a handful of black powder was well over 20 drachms. That’s more than 4 drachms higher than the most powerful 4 bore rifle black powder loading (which was 16 drachms).


According to my records, only four Victorian era hunters are actually recorded with using true 4 bore rifles:

1) Ewart Grogan (author of “From Cape To Cairo”)- He used a hammerless Holland & Holland breech loading double rifle. But he never actually successfully bagged a single game animal with it and hated it. He soon discarded it.

2) Harold G.C Swayne (author of “Seventeen Trips Through Somalia”)- He used a Holland & Holland hammer breechloading double rifle, but eventually abandoned it in favor of a Holland & Holland 8 bore hammerless Paradox gun (which he found to give immensely more penetration & shock).

3) CEM Russell (author of “Bullet & Shot In The Indian Jungle”)- He used a John Dickson & Sons hammerless breechloading double smoothbore (which used to double discharge if the right barrel was fired first).

4) George P. Sanderson (author of “13 Years Amongst The Wild Beasts Of India”)- He used a W.W. Greener breechloading hammer double smoothbore.

Out of these four hunters, only Sanderson spoke favorably about his one.

 

[bigborelover]

Well a 8 bore bolt action sounds like a better idea now.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Well a 8 bore bolt action sounds like a better idea now.

It would be more practical for you to have a .600 Nitro Express bolt action made up for you by Hambrush Hunting Guns in Austria on their Mega Magnum Mauser action. They have already built a few of these rifles before. The .600 Nitro Express also launches a 900Gr bullet like the 8 bore spherical ball load. But at a higher velocity.

 

[matt85]

Well a 8 bore bolt action sounds like a better idea now.

I love my W.J. Jeffery 8-bore 3.25" double rifle! I would easily choose it over a 4-bore!

 

[bigborelover]

It would be more practical for you to have a .600 Nitro Express bolt action made up for you by Hambrush Hunting Guns in Austria on their Mega Magnum Mauser action. They have already built a few of these rifles before. The .600 Nitro Express also launches a 900Gr bullet like the 8 bore spherical ball load. But at a higher velocity.

Well the 600 OK exists so no need for a 600 NE bolt action.

 

[Sarg]

I love my W.J. Jeffery 8-bore 3.25" double rifle! I would easily choose it over a 4-bore!

We had Ross Seyfried hunt with us way back & if I remember correctly he had a Double 8 bore & a single 4 bore on a hunt, the 8 bore was so so in killing Buffalo but the 4 bore was devastating on them, I now wish I had taken more note of loads & ball/bullet weights but back then I wasn't that interested in old Guns !

Now his pistols I was interested in .