DEER RIFLES IN AFRICA
This is a discussion on DEER RIFLES IN AFRICA within the Up To .375 forums, part of the Firearms & Ammunition category; I find it very interesting that people will spend 1000s on a hunt in Africa then want to bring a ...
02-17-2012, 10:01 PM #1
DEER RIFLES IN AFRICA
I find it very interesting that people will spend 1000s on a hunt in Africa then want to bring a deer rifle!
02-17-2012, 10:19 PM #2
I find it very interesting the 7 by 57 has been killing game for over 100 years with a 175 grain bulllet at 2300 FPS but a .308 shooting a 180 grain bullet at 2450 FPS is inadequate.
02-17-2012, 10:58 PM #3
Instead of shooting your next Blue WB with either just send me a check for the trophy fee. well both fell better you wont have to track a wounded WB and I'll get some bullets for reloading.
02-17-2012, 11:19 PM #4
One would think Blue Wildebeest were armor plated by this conversation.
The results of a 243 Win, one Barnes TSX, my 9 year old son, imperfect but adequate shot placement, and 40 yards of follow-up.
I'd be the first to admit that more rifle is less limiting, which I why I use a 30-06. I love the romance and intrigue of Africa, but the oft-repeated nonsense about the bulletproof nature of its animals is not part of the lore that I find interesting. Put a bullet through an important part of the circulatory system and an animal will die, full stop. Good bullet construction and heavier hitting rifles make that easier to do. A person has to know what he, his rifle, and his bullet together are capable of and work within those limits.
I've no issue with any man's choice of rifle as long as he knows what he can and cannot do with it and works within those limits. I do find it unfortunate that "use enough gun" has probably done more harm than good in that many people show up to Africa with more gun than they can shoot well. Ask 100 experienced PHs if they think a 308 is adequate for plains game and I doubt you'll find a dozen who think it is not. Ask 100 PHs if they think a 375 is better IF THE PERSON CAN SHOOT IT AS WELL as his 308 and I doubt you'll find a dozen who think it is not.
Rifle choice is a balancing act. If you have the ability to shoot a bigger rifle well, that is in my mind the best choice. If you have the ability to shoot a 30-06 well, that is a perfectly adequate choice. If you have the ability to shoot a 243 well, you better learn to be patient and choose shots wisely, for it is not forgiving.
02-18-2012, 12:32 AM #6
Well I'm going to say it again shooting is not an inate skill. Most people shoot less than a box a year(20 carts). That being said most people have no business shooting past 200 yds, even then its ifiy. I know this because as a former Drill SGT I have taught 1000s to shoot rifles pistols and machine guns. most people go small because they are scared of recoil which you cant get used to in 10 rounds a year. Whats the solution to the can I shoot pg with a bb gun syndrome? Invest some money time and effort into PRACTICE!
02-18-2012, 01:11 AM #7
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Well, practice are allways good, but it doesnt change the fact that a ph's nightmare are a client with a brand new 375 or 416 or similar...(Maybe with a muzzle brake as well...)The best hunt are the one in your dreams, the next best are the one in your memories.
If people spent as much time on the range as they do arguing the differences between a 270 and a 30-06, the world would be a better place. And if I could only afford 2 rifles, I'd buy 1 and spend the rest on a good shooting school. I have no idea why so few people are willing to go to a good shooting school.
02-18-2012, 05:42 AM #9
- Hunted South Africa (Limpopo, Free-State, North West, Northern Cape) and Botswana (Tuli Area; Selebi-Pikwe, and Tsabong regions)
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02-18-2012, 06:12 AM #10
458 Lott. Practice on pigs in the US (500 grain monolithic solids at 2220 FPS only, the shields are tough). In Africa good for Impala, reed buck, bushbuck, baboon, etc but only if you use properly constructed AP rounds from Barnes.
50 BMG Rifle. This is good for large plains game, leopard, and if you are insane maybe lion. Some wussie guys shoot the 460 Weatherby for large Plains Game, it is so embarrassing.
For black death nothing less than a 20 MM will do. I prefer open sites but this gentleman has a scope on his rifle, it is just not traditional enough for me.
And yes it is raining, so I can either spread my wisdom on the internet, go to work, or prepare my tax info for my accountant.
02-18-2012, 06:33 AM #11
- Member of NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
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Mike, very nicely put together .... Thanks for sharing your wisdom, I guess I would have to know bullet weight on the 20mm before I would agree with taking black death with it.
Anyway, good points made, practice, practice, practice, which I agree whole heartely. Deer season rolls around and you get an influcks of people you have not seen all year, I've seen it.
I don't think most PH's are going to let a guy shoot over 200m. At least the one's I have met and spoken with. They would much rather stalk closer, say 100m, and let you take a more realistic shot. BART if you are taking 400m+ shots on game, then thats your cup of tea, that topic could be a completly new thread.
As for the 308 not being enough gun, They take Moose and Elk using them here in the states, you really think a Wildebeest is tougher?"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche // That which does not kill me, better run like hell" Scott Smith
02-18-2012, 06:35 AM #12
bartfrncs, may i ask why you seem so annoyed that people use what you call their deer rifle on a hunt? any ph you ask would prefer their client to bring the rifle they are comfortable with, i.e. the one they use the most, which for clients from the usa would be their deer rifle. as has been said it is about bullet placement which is a lot easier if you are using a rifle you are comfortable with, as opposed to the new whizzbang magnum you bought just to go to africa with. my son shot his puku and lechwe with his .22 hornet, both one shot kills, and his waterbuck with his .223 which went 50yards and went down. i am not advocating these calibres for these animals,what i am saying if you put the bullet in the correct place your .270, .308 or 30-06 are fine. the myth with wildebeest and zebra being bulletproof is due to the fact they are large animals ,and if you dont hit them in the correct place, yes they will dissapear into the distance, but guess what if you hit them correctley they go down the same as any other animal that is shot in the correct place
02-18-2012, 06:48 AM #13
This is my real opinion on rifles in Africa. Bring the largest rifle you can accurately and comfortably shoot. My two gun battery is a 470 Nitro Double and 375 H&H for PG. The 375 has also been used to shoot two buffalo. My wife brings a 7 by 57 because that is what she is comfortable shooting.
Practice, practice, and practice more. Dry firing helps, run drills cycling your bolt or reloading your double. Get the rifle off the bench. The difference between a 3/4" group and a 1" from the bench is meaningless in the field. Shoot offhand, kneeling, leaning against a tree, off shooting sticks, hell I oncle shot a warthog prone with a 416 Remington.
Shoot premium bullets, that is far more important than many other factors. It is the bullet that does the work.
So yes your deer rifle is fine, I killed a leopard with my 300 Win Mag, it is also one of my deer rifles.
BTW on all of my trips and quite a few animals killed the only animal I have lost has been a blue wildebeest. Short story, poor shot placement with a 375 H&H.
02-18-2012, 09:36 AM #14
- Member of SCI
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The journey is the reward.
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02-18-2012, 09:44 AM #15
02-18-2012, 09:47 AM #16
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02-19-2012, 03:07 AM #17
- Hunted Norway, Sweden, England, South Africa
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In my experience is people very different when it comes to recoil.
Also between people shooting and practicing a lot.
Some of us enjoy recoil, others just can't handle it.
I have a friend that is a very good shot and do it very well in different shooting competitions both with a shotgun and with a rifle.
He is shooting thousands and thousands of shots every year.
He shoots well under competition pressure and while hunting.
But give him something larger than a 308 and his shooting deteriorate rapidly.
It is outside his comfort zone, no matter how much he tries to practice with something larger.
Send him on a PG hunt with a 6.5x55 or a 308 and I am 100% sure he will one-shot every animal with good shots.
If you give him a 9.3x62 or larger instead, the risk of long days tracking wounded animals has become rather high.
02-19-2012, 03:34 AM #18
- Member of PHASA ; SCI ; DSC ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
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I believe that the majority of foreign hunters out there give our animals far too much credit. The two most critical factors is a premium bullet that will not fail punched into the correct area of the animal's anatomy. Done.
When it comes to calibre choice, the most important rule is to acknowledge that every single calibre out there has its own capability. Under no circumstance should you push these limits of its capability. You could hunt any plains game animal in Africa with something as small as a .243 Win. But dont expect it to punch through 1.5 yds of gut on a heavily quartering away shot. Take a shot on a broadside standing animal, and that animal will go down just as quick as being shot with a .300 Win Mag.
Premium Bullets + Shot Placement = Game Over
02-19-2012, 04:05 AM #19
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Marius, thank you for your words of wisdom. It is my opinion that the "toughness" of African animals is something invented by safari writers to make their stories more exciting and perpetuated by some in in the trade to sell hunts and/or help clients justify bad shooting or poor bullet performance.
Your animals are the same as ours. A hit in the vitals kills them, a hit anywhere else wounds them. There are many combinations of guns and bullets that will do it; some will afford the hunter a larger window of possible shots than others. All things being equal, a person will bag more game with a 375 than with a recurve bow, but both are valid and satisfying forms of hunting. The client needs to decide what limitations he wants to accept and then choose his weapon accordingly.
MY picture showing the results of my son's single shot from his 243 got lost from my earlier post and I've attached it here.
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