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.270 Winchester, .308 Winchester & 300 Winchester Magnum Ammo Advice needed.

This is a discussion on .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester & 300 Winchester Magnum Ammo Advice needed. within the Up To .375 forums, part of the HUNTING EQUIPMENT, FIREARMS & AMMUNITION category; Good day all. I'd like to hear your thoughts on ammunition for the above mentioned calibers since I am taking ...

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    Default .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester & 300 Winchester Magnum Ammo Advice needed.

    Good day all.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on ammunition for the above mentioned calibers since I am taking over a few rifles from my father.

    He has stopped hunting a few years ago and for that matter was was never really an avid hunter. He only did so begrudgingly to provide provisions for the farm.

    Despite my love of shooting, I have only recently taken a keener interest in hunting, having shot only a few animals in Namibia, Eastern Cape and the Karoo over the past 20 years.

    My reasons for hunting are primarily for ethically sourced meat and the experience hunting and it's for this reason that I seek advice.

    Since these three rifles have proven themselves to be arguably good at hunting the types of game mentioned above and below, and overlap in many aspects with regards to in-the-field performance, I seek your practical advise as a starting point with regards to application, meat damage, distances etc. Ideally I'd like to get to the point where I can familiarise myself with a single load per rifle and use it to its best advantage.

    At present all three guns are zeroed to 200m/218.7yards.

    The rifles in questions are:

    .270 Winchester (Winchester Model 70/Leupold 3-9x40mm, All Weather, Mid 90's)
    This rifle was bought and used very successfully for taking Hartmann's Zebra and Oryx (Gemsbok) in mountainous terrain at distances often beyond 300 meters/328yards. I intend to use it for springbok to zebra sized animals at long distances in Namibia and the Karoo. It has done very well with 130gr. Winchester ammunition even on the notoriously tough donkeys, so I intend to stick with the weight at least.

    .300 Winchester Magnum (Ruger M77 Hawkeye Standard/Leupold 3-9x40mm)
    This rifle was used for similar purposes as and was later replaced by the .270 as the day to day farm rifle due to the latter's ability to take a beating without too much cosmetic scarring whilst riding in the open Jeep. I intend to use it for Zebra, Oryx and up to Eland sized game and generally for hunting where distances tend to go over the 200meter/yard mark. It has known and loved Remington 180gr. bullets.

    .308 Winchester (1960's Mauser action, British barrel, the name escapes me A. Rosenthal assembled/Zeiss scope)
    This rifle has taken its fair share of oryx, kudu, zebra and springbok over the years and I intend to use it for the above as well as warthog and feral pig and perhaps eland. This is probably the rifle I'd take along for bushveld hunts and when anticipating shorter distances and match it with ammunition with this purpose in mind. Thinking 165gr. 180gr. It has done well with Norma's Oryx.

    I am have fired many shots with these rifles and I'm quite comfortable with the recoil as well as groupings over distances. For now I'll be using over the counter ammunition but would ideally like to start reloading. Given the above info, gentlemen, your thoughts please.

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    Sounds like a good battery for plains game. I think you are over analysing these rifles a bit here. The .270 will be a great gun for smaller game at longer ranges and both the .308 and .270 will kill any game mentioned at normal ranges. The .300 will pretty much do the job on anything within sight, LOL.
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    Overanalysing, moi?

    Diamondhitch, I think you've nailed the summary of the situation. But hey, since the selection affords me the luxury of being pedantic, I'd like to fine tune my choices to best suit the quarry.

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    Grumulkin is offline AH Member
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    My loads:

    270 Winchester; IMR 8208 XBR & 130 gr.Remington Core-Lokt

    308 Winchester; IMR 4064 with 165 or 168 gr. bullets

    300 Winchester Magnum; H4831SC with 200 gr. Nosler Accubond

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    Agreeing with Hitch here, the 300 WM will cover all bases on almost anything with hooves. However, I am rather fond of the 308 (always have been) and I would push that thing to it's limits before reaching for the 300. Good luck on the upcoming hunt, who knows, the pop may become an hunting partner after all.
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    I use pmp kalahari elite 130gr which has a scirocco ballistic tip boat tail for my .270 and pmp African elite which has a 200gr swift a frame for the .300 real good results of the shelf.
    Pieter Erasmus
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    With Swift A-frame bullet you cannot go wrong.......
    Small plains animals for the 270 win and 130 gr Accubonds and Swift bullets for the 308 and 300WM in 180 gr

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    Thank you very much for the advise and helping me to narrow down my choices.

    With regards to meat damage, both the .270 and .300WM have a reputation for spoiling meat.

    Some seem to lay the blame at the feet of hydrostatic shock caused by a speeding bullet, while others point a finger at inferior bullets, blaming an over-eager expansion rate. Then there are those that consider hydrostatic shock a myth.

    It seems that the general consensus favours a heavier, slower travelling, premium bullet designed for controlled expansion.

    Considering the above and that the shot lands where it's supposed to, what have your experiences been with regards to meat damage? Would the same 130 grain bullet used for zebra or oryx, for instance, make mince of something as small as a springbok?

    Again, thanks all for the advice offered above.

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    It depends on which bullet, bullet velocity and where you hit the animal. It's also a matter of proportion; what would be inconsequential meat damage on a large animal will appear much more significant on a large animal.

    If your bullet hits the head, there will be no meat damage; if it hits in the neck there won't be much meat damage; if it hits in the chest behind the shoulder, there won't be much meat damage. The same bullet in the upper part of a rear leg will probably ruin a lot of meat.

    Getting to bullet selection, if you use a solid, meat damage will be limited to pretty much around the bullet hole. Lower velocities will help keep a bullet together and minimize meat damage. Monometal lead free bullets like those made by Hornady, Nosler and Barnes will likely hold together better and lessen meat damage.

    I've shot a fair number of deer with 130 grain Remington Core Lokts out of a 270 Winchester without much meat damage. I've used 168 grain Berger VLDs in a 300 Weatherby on pronghorn antelope; the wounds were impressive but meat damage was minimal because of where I hit them. I've used Nosler 200 grain Accubonds in both the 300 Win. Mag. and 300 Weatherby on things as small as springbok and once again, meat damage wasn't much as long as bullet placement was optimal.

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    I agreed with Grumulkin and If you are planning to hunt Zebra and Orix with 130 gr bullet from a 270 win, you have to use premium bullet in orther to achive penetration in those massive bodies (Barnes TTSX and Swift A-frame would be my choices).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poucher View Post
    I agreed with Grumulkin and If you are planning to hunt Zebra and Orix with 130 gr bullet from a 270 win, you have to use premium bullet in orther to achive penetration in those massive bodies (Barnes TTSX and Swift A-frame would be my choices).
    Here is proof and a perfect example of (semi) terminal performance for a 130 Gr TTSX .270 Win.
    Last Season.
    If you want to find the bullet it is in the Kalahari Sand somewhere.
    The young PH was impressed with the performance.
    Right in the "Sgt Stripes"
    100 Yards. (Glad I made sure there was nothing behind the target.)

    By the way, I don't like shoulder steaks.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinton View Post
    Thank you very much for the advise and helping me to narrow down my choices.

    With regards to meat damage, both the .270 and .300WM have a reputation for spoiling meat.

    Some seem to lay the blame at the feet of hydrostatic shock caused by a speeding bullet, while others point a finger at inferior bullets, blaming an over-eager expansion rate. Then there are those that consider hydrostatic shock a myth.

    It seems that the general consensus favours a heavier, slower travelling, premium bullet designed for controlled expansion.

    Considering the above and that the shot lands where it's supposed to, what have your experiences been with regards to meat damage? Would the same 130 grain bullet used for zebra or oryx, for instance, make mince of something as small as a springbok?

    Again, thanks all for the advice offered above.






    WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT
    This is fair warning.













    Here is an array of pictures to answer the question.

    Some shot placements were perfect with minimal extraneous damage to meat. Others.... not so much.

    Shots taken: Broadsides, Face on, Quartering Away.
    Head shots, and most for the Heart Lung.



    There were three rifles and loads used;

    A .375 H&H No Clue. My guess 250 Gr Softs.

    B .300 WM 180 Gr TTZX

    C .270 Win 130 Gr TTSX


    Answers at the very bottom.














    You tell me which of these three rifles you think were used for each animal:


    Blue Wildebeest 1 - At 80 yards.
    Clear shot to the animals no bush.




    Blue Wildebeest 2 - 80 to 100 yards
    Some small twigs in the way.


    Blue Wildebeest 2 - Close up Entrance



    Grey Duiker - 40 yards
    Running shot with bush in the way.



    Red Hartebeest 1 - Entrance 60 yards
    Bullet went through a small thumb size tree five feet before the animal.




    Red Hartebeest 1 - Exit. 60 yards




    Vaal Rhebuck 1 Exit holes - 430 Meters and 380 Meters
    Clear shots.



    Vaal Rhebuck 2 - 200 Yards
    Clear shot. The animal swapped ends as the trigger was pulled, literally.
    Side heart shot into a modified Texas heart shot in a millisecond.




























    ANSWERS:
    Blue Wildebeest 1 375 H&H
    Blue Wildebeest 2 .270 Win
    Common Duiker .300WM
    Red Hartebeest .300WM
    Vaal Rhebuck 1 .300WM
    Vaal Rhebuck 2 . 270 Win
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    I've owned and loaded for probably a half dozen 270s over the years, as a big fan of the cartridge from growing up reading O'Connor. A long time ago I developed the opinion that if a .270 won't shoot 130 grain bullets into little-bitty groups using 60 grains of H4831, get rid of it. I've never seen one that wouldn't though. Nosler Accubonds or Ballistic Tips would be at the top of the heap for anything a 270 is suitable for, it generally takes 61 grains to hit the 3100 ft./s mark, by the way.

    Another absolutely super load is Hornady new Superformance SST. In the two rifles I tried it in, it shoots under minute of angle, and there's no way you're going to equal it's 3200 ft./s velocity under normal safe loading practices. If I were going to shoot exclusively factory that's load I'd pick. Number two would be garden-variety Remington 130 CoreLokts, I always keep my eyes open for a sale on them at WalMart and stock up when I can.

    By the way, I'd like CoreLokts because they generally chronograph at advertised velocities and priced great. A lot of the factory stuff out there does not live up to specs. I've clock them in the 243, 270, 280, 308 3006, 300 Win, RUM and 300 Weatherby, right where they are supposed to be. Ditto Barnes VOR-TX, Nosler and Hornady. The Winchester Combined Technology stuff seems to be right on but the Power Points are usually slow, as are Federal cartridges in my experience.

    I recently found myself in possession of an extra 270 Model 700, so I had Joe Collier rebarrel it to 280 Ackley improved. I have to say since working with that cartridge, that's the only round I like better than the 270, in this class, because of the ability to use 175 grain bullets if necessary. With anything lighter it's pretty much the same gun, noteworthy is the fact that the .284 bore requires an improved cartridge to keep up with the .270 trajectory wise. It's hard to improve perfection after all.

    I don't how many 300 Winchester Magnum's I've had over the years but it's been quite a few. My general rule of thumb is if I want more gun than a 270, you'll probably find me with one of these. (if I want more poop than the .300, it's 375 H&H time.)

    I like to say that in an emergency, you fill the case with Hodgdon's 4831, level it off with a butter knife, and seat any 180 grain bullet on top of it, preferably a Nosler Partition. (Actually you could say the same thing about a 270 Winchester.) That'll work out to somewhere between 73 and 75 grains depending on the case thickness, if I remember correctly.

    For garden-variety factory loads I still like the Remington 180 CoreLokts, but for serious business that new Barnes 180 TTSX VOR TX is an awesome new load. I've never shot any smaller groups with factory loads them with that stuff lately.

    It's hard to beat 46 grains of Varget with any 168 grain plastic tip bullet in the .308 Winchester. That's good for about 2600 ft./s and change. About half the target shooters at my local gun club swear by it. I once shot a 9/16 inch 200 yard group out of my factory 700 VTR at 200 yards with it. I thought it was an accident, but the next two groups were also under inch so it's accuracy was confirmed in my head.

    That's kind of a hot load in some rifles, so I urge anyone who wants to try to start at 42 grains and work her way up. My Winchester Model 88 lever action starts to rebel with any more than that, but I settled on that as the ideal hunting load that rifle at 1.5 MOA. Sometimes even drop down to a 150 with it in that gun.

    But the risk of sounding like a broken record, my go to Whitetail round when I'm shooting factory is again the 150 grain Hornady Superformance SST. I clock that bullet 3000 feet per second out of my Featherweight Model 70 short action, turning into the full equal of the .30/06 with a quarter pound less weight.

    If you try that Superformance 150 load, pick up a box of the same 165's while you're at it. Interestingly, those print exactly 2 inches lower than the 150s in that Featherweight. That means if you sight dead-on at 250 yards (+3" at 100) with the 150 gr load, the 165's will be on at about 150 (+1" at 100) for shorter range situations. I found that to be a very handy characteristic while Whitetail hunting, perhaps your rifle will too.
    -----------------
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    I forgot to mention, I recently chronographed a 180 grain .308 Winchester PowerPoint factory load at just a little over 2400 ft./s. No thanks. It would be hard to think of a situation where A 165 would not be a better choice out of the .308 than a 180, unless it was some highly specialized situation.

    It is with 180 grain bullets that the 308s lack of case capacity starts to become a handicap. My rule of thumb is that if I need 180 grain bullet, I need an 'ought six or 300.
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    So much for shooting through the brush. Good thing they were Barnes.
    -----------------
    "It's all fun 'n games 'till somebody shoots a bull"

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    Before my first trip to Africa I would NEVER have shot through any bush at all.
    I learned what the TTSX could do, with some encouragement from the PH's.

    I am now a believer in well placed top quality bullets.

    Now, if the bush is close to the animal, I shoot. No problems with performance.

    I think the petals do come off sometimes. (No real splitting up, at least what I think splitting up would be)
    I think that is the case on the Wildebeest.
    The main part of the bullet just keeps going.

    The Hartebeest Bullet went through all this before it did its job. Perfectly straight.

    Front view



    Side view

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    I agree with what has been said as far as meat damage, homogenous bullets will do less damage to meat and will also be neater, as the bullets come close if not achieve 100% weight retention. There is no use whatsoever thinking about foot pounds of energy, it does not equate to killing power. An animal is killed, ultimately, by its brain being starved of oxygen, unless the brain is itself destroyed. Bleeding out the animal by cutting arteries or destroying its lungs by cutting them up is how bullets kill the animal. The greatest potential for this sort of damage only occurs when total penetration is achieved, now there can be arguments made about attempting to use a bullet that will have the largest part of its permanent cavity in the most devastating place, but such is just semantics and too difficult to predict to be of any use. Hopefully, the bullet is placed such that if it cuts its path straight and true it will do the damage intended by the shooter and kill the animal. It becomes more difficult for a bullet to penetrate straight the higher its velocity. The reason is because as the bullet is smashing tissue, that tissue is also smashing the bullet, and the higher the velocity of this collision, the greater the effect of inertia and therefore the greater potential for deforming the bullet. This principle effects the bullet in flight as well, where particles in the air will "strike" the bullet harder when the bullet is traveling at a greater velocity, which is why its deceleration is exponential. Such is negligible, unless the in-flight collisions get bigger, say a blade of grass or a twig, or a bug.

    Homogenous bullets often do not create as large temporary cavities as do faster expanding lead and jacket bullets do, but unless the temporary cavity is larger than the animal, it causes very little damage besides bruising and minor arterial bleeding. The homogenous bullet will expand with greater consistency and also cut with greater efficiency, helping to preserve its momentum to ensure total penetration.

    Thats basically what I've always trusted as far as choosing bullets, there are times when I imagine I would prefer lead in my bullets but for the applications you mentioned I do think mono-metal to be the best option. Hornady makes good bullets, as does barnes and Norma, I think someone else mentioned that.

    Good luck hunting and I hope I might have helped at least a little bit.

    Btw, an excellent read relating to this subject is "Rifles for Africa" by Gregor Woods
    We do not hunt to have killed, we kill to have hunted.

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    .375 is known for "being able to eat right up to the bullet hole."
    My .257 shooting Barnes is known for minimal hide damage while causing a hemorrhage of epic proportion on any meaty areas it comes in contact with, especially if any big bone is contacted. Hit a rib and you will have a 2 foot bruise. Hit a shoulder blade and you will throw most of that quarter away, even on big stuff. When I backed Christine up on her Elk this year I could not believe how far from the wound I was finding bloodshot, probably 16" or more. Great gun but don't shoot em in any part you want to eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondhitch View Post
    .............
    ......don't shoot em in any part you want to eat.
    I think this about says it all for any game and any caliber!
    Practice whispering before you leave for Africa!
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    Gentlemen, thank you very much.

    Every one of you have given me a lot of food for thought and certainly more than enough to keep me busy while I wait to unravel all the red tape required to bring the guns home.

    Two hunts have already been pencilled into the diary and hopefully by some miracle I'll be able to take to hunt with my own rifles this time around.

    Please keep your advice coming and thank you to all who gave their time to bring this newbie hunter up to speed.

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