Where is all of this going to leave us?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Spiral Horn Safaris, Jan 15, 2011.

  1. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Where is all of this going to leave us?:confused:

    Good day Gentleman in an effort not to offend or bad mount anyone I am posting this as a brand new topic!;)

    The world economy is crippled and yes everyone is taking a beating both clients and Outfitters. We are all part of the same industry whether you are are selling or buying hunts things have been slow over the last 2 years.

    Now to get to the core of this topic I have seen specials come and go over the last two years some were very good and it was either companies that are making a name for themselves or operations that hunt on large open concessions and need to fill their quota for the year or they will have to pay in. I would like to make it clear that I have no problem with competitive pricing it is healthy to have competition and makes one work harder to provide a good service.

    There is a new trend sticking out its ugly head this is the PAC topic now I am not sure but according to what I am aware of PAC stands for Problem Animal Control this is when a particular animal becomes a problem and it needs to be taken out as quickly and humanly as possible? All of a sudden these hunts are advertised with a two moths time frame in mind? Surely this is not PAC but a cheap way to market hunts to clients who will need prior notice to make the hunt possible?

    Gentleman in my opinion if you would like to conserve wildlife and protect the future well being of wildlife populations put a price on the animals head so how healthy is it to sell these PAC hunts on a large scale?

    Less than 100 years ago there was ample land available in Africa game could roam freely without being labelled as PAC animals, if you had a farm in old Africa and elephants would raid your corn field it would not be a problem animal it would be part of living in Africa.

    Things sure have changed, a lot of land has been developed in to commercial farms, cities and wildlife estates where you can buy a stand and have a house on one of these estates.

    Let’s say for a moment that all game loses their value, farm owners sell their land or sub divide it (this is already happening), concession owners lose their area’s because they simply can’t make a living and pay government fees. The government loses interest.

    As soon this starts happening the door will be left open to development and these places will be lost forever, some people who can’t find jobs outside of the hunting industry will look to pouching and thus supplying the illegal trades:mad:. Others will seek opportunities ells were and start developing their game farms in to these so called wildlife estates, people who keep and bread with endangered game species (White Rhino) will be forced to get rid of them since the risks are just too high. Vast open hunting area’s will become open to commercial farms, mining or will simply be pouched out because there is no interest in game and the very people who would work in our camps would have to resort to killing the game for food because of poverty.

    Gentleman these threats are very real in fact a lot of them are already happening?

    Unfortunately whether we would like to know it or not money is what it protecting the game populations in Africa money that we invest and our dear clients spend on hunts with us.

    Come on everyone lets protect something we all love!

    I would like to know how others feel about this?

    Best Regards
    louis van Bergen
  2. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,745
    Likes Received:
    29
    My Photos:
    131
    Member of:
    sci int, basc
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    it does seem strange that problem animals are sold as hunts months before they cause a problem. i can understand if while you are on a hunt and a problem animal appears, then you can be given the opportunity to take that animal at a reduced cost. as for losing areas read the last part of my comment in "whats wrong with you people". regards
  3. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,728
    Likes Received:
    58
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    I know a guy that about 3 years ago shot 3 cheetahs, two leopards and a lion in Namibia, all in one hunt....they were PAC hunts....I found it sick and disgusting.

    Getting back to the subject at hand....I don't see how PAC hunts can be advertised for 2 months or longer....aand it seems more and more common. I think the hunts are now advertising to draw people to Africa to hunt!

    The world economy is definitely a huge problem. People that have money will continue to hunt every year. But others aren't! With the price of oil soaring again..people are afraid in the U.S. We don't see raises at work anymore. Except if you count our health insurance costs. And taxes are always going to be a problem....because of all the debt....government and people.

    Africa has a lot of great hunting, lodging, food and service....but when you factor airfare, taxidermy and other costs in....in a bad economy it's hard to continue hunting. I know the baby boomer generation is just worried about being able to retire and live without outliving their retirement income.

    And people that have hunted Africa are always looking for that sale or deal....so they can continue hunting Africa...but at a cheaper price....this is where you get the bugging for a $6400 total cost buffalo hunt. No one wants to pay full price.

    Where does leave the wildlife...up in the air? I already know with the human population growing and resources eventually dwindling....there is going to be less wildlife and less hunting.

    So get out there and hunt and enjoy the wildlife while you can!
  4. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,129
    Likes Received:
    29
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI
    Hunted:
    USA, S. Africa
    It wouldn't seem to me whether the hunt is listed as a PAC hunt or advertised as "Cheapest Hunt You'll Ever Have", it's the price that seems to be the issue. I'm not sure what to say in the end, the economy is what it is. If you're 401K (an American term for one of our types of retirement accounts) turned into a 201K, you've perhaps given up on that house payment that went to a home now worth half what you paid, the gov't is threatening higher taxes and so forth, you pull back from non-required spending.

    The signs here in the U.S. is that the economy is getting better, I sure hope so. The sooner the economy does get better, the less likely this scenario you describe Louis will be realized. The longer, well.....
  5. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Hi guy’s

    We seem to all agree on the matter that these so called PAC hunt offers are growing.

    As I said both outfitters and clients are investing a lot of money so I am certainly not attacking clients here the world economy is in peril and I think a lot of operations understand it hence the drop in average price of a hunt.

    Phil I sincerely hope that things get better for all of us but my issue with PAC hunts are not simply that they are cheap. I think in a lot of instances these species are provoked in to becoming a problem.

    Just as an example:

    Let’s say we have an elephant that is raiding crops now in this instance these crops belong to a local farmer should he not get the permit to hunt the PAC animal and only he?

    I will promise you we will see a dramatic drop in these so called PAC hunts there would simply be no reason for it unless it truly is a problem animal.

    Well I could be wrong?
  6. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,728
    Likes Received:
    58
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    The last time, I was in Africa...in the Limpopo Area...a farmer had a Hippo eating in his field...we was looking for a "client" to rid the field of the beast. To me...it was a hippo eating in a field.The animal was then deemed to be a PAC animal. Since there was no permit to export....it was just a shoot and picture hunt. The going price....I think was $2000.

    PAC hunt or not? Why is it not just a hippo hunt...so you could export the tusks out at least? Or is the hippo doing what is natural?
  7. Frederik

    Frederik AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    394
    Likes Received:
    8
    My Photos:
    100
    Member of:
    BASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique and Sweden
    Louis, I fully agree we are cutting our own throats in the industry with these cheap deals.

    Yes we have done a lot of good deals before but that is when people asked for a good deal then we would set dates that are open anyway and do deals on animals we can do deals on to make it possible for that guy who really wants to come but cannot come on our regular pricelist rates. But then again he knows hes coming at a deal and keeps his end of the bargain. While we can have a client come for a 60" kudu and he will not shoot anything else for his whole trip and doesnt find his 60" kudu in the end we still need to make a living and that is where our normal rates come in where we can cover ourselves if nothing is shot. We can not force anybody to pull the trigger if he doesnt want to.

    We give out a yearly free hunt as well but that is just marketing and most of the guys who win make the best of it we get a great reference he has a super hunt and we level out.

    PAC - Like I explained on the other thread is it a PAC that causes human conflict or just damage or has the owner of the property a problem with that specific animal ?

    We can just wish for the dollar to stregthen again and the world economy getting back on its legs as this in the long run hurst the whole hunting world's industry. Sport hunting is unfortunatley only a luxury and not a need to survive (Although I know a lot of people including myself who live to hunt)

    If you want to save money and still go hunting take it easy on the taxidermy and skip mounting and do skull mounts some animals you just cannot just do a skull mount like leopard but if you can afford a leopard hunt you can afford to mount.

    All I can say is that 2010 was tough and if you could afford to make cutthroat deals and get away with you probarbly had good backup and do not only survive from your hunting like we do. We can not sell a proper kudu these days for less than what we ask as it's a prime trophy and we need to keep looking after our population otherwise we will fall below our good horn length average. we dont charge the most but its defintely not eastern cape kudu prices. With some animals you can make deasl others not but everybody wants kudu.

    I think thats enough from me for now.
  8. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Hi Frederik

    No doubt that it is tough to compete today there are specials left right and centre I have no problem with what competitors are pricing it is up to them if they can make a living well fine.

    Bottom line is we need our clients they keep us in business and make sure that we can keep doing what we love.

    But to promote the hunting of these PAC animals will just start a bad trend no doubt that there are true PAC animals but you won’t have two months to decide whether you can make the hunt?

    Something is fishy to me?

    Enysse I agree with what you said why is this animal not offered to an Outfitter with Cities permit and labelled as a hippo hunt why a PAC animal. If that can’t be the case then I say let the farmer shoot the hippo and utilize the meat by selling it to get a bit of money back?

    We are not seeing PAC plains game hunts, I mean when a bush buck is raiding an alfalfa field the farmer strolls out and deals with it!

    And yes prices can only go so low then we will see the scenario that I have described but these PAC hunts are just a better way of promoting our own demise.

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  9. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,129
    Likes Received:
    29
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI
    Hunted:
    USA, S. Africa
    I did not realize that Louis about the animals being provoked. It would seem that in that instance the problem animal is the one that walks on two legs. Sorry to be slow on this, but are you suggesting that some landowners or guides are purposely trying to get more animals slapped with the "PAC" title as means to gain a larger quota of less expensive big 5 hunts?

    For my own education, how exactly do PAC animals attain this unfortunate title? I mean I can understand a lion that makes a habit of eating children quickly attaining this label, but that's an extreme example. Barring the extreme, what is the criteria?
  10. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Hi Phil

    Not a problem at all I think is very important for us to talk about this.

    Basically you can get a PAC permit on a animal that is destroying property, endangering people in certain instances for the killing of other livestock.

    You need to fill out some paperwork and then nature conservation will come out to inspect the situation (sometimes).I have spoken to quite a few guys who have told me that is sure is funny that lions and elephants always manage to find themselves on the other side of Kruger’s fence.

    I personally have no doubt that each time a animal like hippo, lion, elephant does the slightest thing for example feed on some farmers produce they are up for PAC.

    Now let’s look at another example we have a big problem with Cheetah on my own land as well as in the area they litterly killed all 36 blesbuck I had so this has already become a big problem for me as well as a lot of other operations I am sure.

    Should I apply for a PAC cheetah permit I would simply just not get it?

    The main argument would be it is their natural habitat now fine so if a animal gets out of Kruger and starts eating a guy’s cattle he should be left alone since he is in his natural habitat?

    If elephants destroy crops they are doing what comes naturally so why are they then labelled as a PAC animal.

    Like Tom said in another post it is funny that we don’t get any white rhino PAC permits?

    The point I am trying to make here is simple someone is getting these animals marked as PAC animals and making a profit out of it.

    And as with anything the larger the demand gets the more will become available?

    As I said there are situations where an animal becomes a problem this animal needs to be taken out quickly or the problem will persist so a very strict time limit I can truly understand and should the client be in the country at the time well his good luck! Most of the time locals hunt these animals to resolve this problem quickly but all of a sudden these hunts can be planned with prior notice were does this come from?

    One solution can be to let the land owner hunt this animal quickly and thus problem is resolved before further damage can be done?

    Phil I wish I could give you more details as to what will qualify you to get the PAC permit in South Africa but unfortunately I just can’t seem to find the additional info on a web site.

    I am sure there are other Outfits that can give all of us more info with regards to the whole PAC process and point out that there are other examples to look at as well?

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  11. Bushbuck

    Bushbuck AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    0

    I knew this was going to come down to just blaming a bushbuck.
  12. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    72
    Member of:
    NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, France
    Louis, I know I am new to this site, but, I would like to give my opinion. I don't want to be "that guy" but, I guess I will be here, 1st off I am not anti- goverment or some crazy who thinks everyone's out to get him, you touched on this in your 1st post about the goverment fees and them loosing interest. I have not been to the great continent of Africa "YET", but soon will be, I have however spoken with several PH's in Africa (I will not drop names) but 3 of them made very similar remarks about the exportation fees involved with thier hunts. They state that it is really nothing more than filling a political figures pocket so you can get something out of the country that you have already paid for. With that being said, the government might loose interest in the people, but, everyone knows if there is a way for a government (any government ) to make money, they will. There are pos and cons to any countries goverment, but with the way the world economy is today, we all tend to see thier faults. My belief is that, as the great Presidents Jefferson and Regan believed in "less government" let the people make decisions for themselves. You are also right about people wanting to save a buck, but, in my line of work as with yours, Quality is a key to your success. If someone is offering a Cape Buffalo for $5500.00 I would definatly check it out, but, if the guy had bad reviews or if I couldn't bring it home, I'd say screw it. The guys that are giving quality hunts should be able to get a reasonable price for the hunts and his services. Believe me I own a small concrete co. in the mid-west and there are alot of cut throat opperation around, but, we do quality work and I think that's why we are still around. Thanks for letting me put in my two cents. Bushbuck, the only person blaming you for anything is me, your one of the reasons I'm going to Africa, Thanks again.
  13. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,129
    Likes Received:
    29
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI
    Hunted:
    USA, S. Africa
    Thanks Louis, I'm getting your point now. This seems a slippery slope polished with dollars, pounds, Rand, etc.
  14. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Thanks to everyone who participated in the topic it was great to get some feedback, 35 Bore I totally agree with you!

    Phil it sure is a tangle web of spiders?

    Last but not least Bush Buck well stay out of them alfalfa fields or you will become a PAC animal in no time LOL.

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  15. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,728
    Likes Received:
    58
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    I guess,less than 3 years back, I received all these specials for hunting buffalo and elephants in Zimbabwe. The elephants where priced about $6000 and 2 buffalo for between $10000 and $11,000. Now I know these buffalo hunts aren't cheap, but some people have no idea what hunts go for...I still here people tell me sable hunts go for $50,000 to $75,000, which we know isn't true. Now some of those offers had to be rogue outfitters, but I really have no interest in PAC hunts. I thought it was stupid to spend money on a unsucessful wildlife conservation project (lol). If there truly was a problem in the parks...why wasn't legitimate hunting allowed for them??? I know there are a ton of excuses, but why?

    I know everyone wants to shoot the BIG 5, but the way it's being done by some people leaves me headscratching. I won't spend my money on something like a PAC hunt. And wish others would join me.

    A hunt should have good memories and a wildlife conservation message involved too in the story. And most of these PAC hunts don't qualify to me. They are sales gimmic.
  16. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    72
    Member of:
    NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, France
    enysse, The only way "I personally" could see a PH attempt to be legitimate about one of these hunts, is if you or I were already hunting with him and he found out there were some trouble animals in his hunting area. Once he finds out he should explain it to the hunter that he or she has the opourtunity to harvest said animal, but, with the understanding that the animal would be nonexportable and at a reduced rate, a little more than what it's going to cost the PH. That senerio was on a Cape Buffalo video I own where the PH was told this Buff had just killed a child in the neghboring village, so really it does'nt matter if the PH or his client dispatches the animal, at least in my mind. What bothers my about the PAC hunts is when the PH is selling this thing as a normal hunt, seems mileading, dishonest and says alot for the PH who's selling it. My knowledge of how a PAC hunt works is by reading these forums, so if I'm off on my understanding of how one works, please let me know. Scott
  17. Frederik

    Frederik AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    394
    Likes Received:
    8
    My Photos:
    100
    Member of:
    BASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique and Sweden
    Scott, in Mozambique for example if that same scenario played off with the problem buffalo the outfitter/ph would have been breaking a law if he charged you a cent for it. Its the outfitters responsibilty in the area/concession to clean out these problem animals when the local chef de poste issues a permit for the problem animal. And yes its not exportable then unless the outfitter gives you a trophy permit of his quota which I doubt would happen as he will loose revenue.
  18. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,728
    Likes Received:
    58
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    I didn't mean to cause any harm to any outfitters on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. I just wanted to warn people that a lot of these hunts aren't what they sound like...and that you want to do a lot of research into them...before considering them a legit deal. My hunting ethics says to walk away from these hunts.

    Most of the time in Africa if there is a problem animal...the citizens of the great nation should be able to handle it in no time flat. They are highly skilled. If animal needs to be hunted it should have a license and CITES tag and anything else anyone can think of...and be counted as animal take in that Province, concession...etc. The ivory and horns and hide should be exportable.

    If a animal is not exportable, to me....let the locals hunt it. And that is my two cents. If every animal had a tag or license then there would be no shipping or any other problems. I do think and know hunts go on and on one has a tag or anything else. And that is just bad business...this is getting weeded out of Africa....but why should anyone deal with it in the first place.
  19. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    202
    Member of:
    SCI and PHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa and Zambia
    Hi Enysse

    Well said I could not possibly agree with you more;)!

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  20. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,728
    Likes Received:
    58
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    There was a spelling error and I corrected it.

Share This Page