Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Cliffy, May 5, 2012.
now bluey stop being rude about the best selling ute/pickup in the usa or is it the world???:heh:
Welcome to AH.
Yup, sounds like burn out symptoms to me.
Glad you found a way to keep going. If backing up does it for you great.
There are plenty of cliques and negativity to go round in this world.
I also see it lots on forums closer to home. I avoid them. But I look in just to test the weather.
If you don't mind I would like to see pictures and hear your good stories here.
They are new to me and I will appreciate it.
You're 100% correct, it is us that has "spoilt them", I'm as guilty as is anyone with that.
Thank you for the welcome. i think you get my point. The Cliques are the exact word I should have used. Hunters should just enjoy one another's stories, pictures,and accomplishments without having to worry about being ambushed. Posting hunt reports on "some other forums" got to be like handing in a term paper to a prick professor, you just knew he would find a way to be hyper critical of it.
Actually, Christophe Morio told me about this forum in CAR this year, he told me it was different.
Christophe gets it.
He shares his own trophies and his clients trophies as well. Positive and supportive. Glad he let you know about AH. Dive in. I am surprised he did not make you pose with an Ah cap on. Every one of the trackers and staff have.
The accusations about being PC (politically correct) get thrown around by some around here.
I do not think you need to avoid conflict, just be polite and respectful.
I think there are much more productive methods of going about it than slagging a guy and his hunt.
Debate, go for it.
Expose a crooked dealer or any sort, whatever. As Jerome has always said, it is "your" forum.
The invitation goes out to everyone.
Share your stories and pictures and let me and everyone else learn from it. Whatever your hunt is or was.
He might have made me wear an AH cap, he was not my PH. He was suppose to be but there was a couple there doing a 28 day 2 x 2 and it made sense for CAWA to put me with a different guy. I spent a lot of time with him in the evening though. We still keep in touch email regularly, he has used some pictures of live LDE I took for some writing he is doing and he sent me some live Bongo pictures for some of my work. Both are very difficult to get.
He really does get it, he and I hunt for the same reasons. He is in fact a "Purist" .
LDE and Bongo, the dream.
I'll be the one to stand up for Ph's here.... if I am correct we are a bunch of egotistical, users, there to take what we can and then be rude behind your back, then go to the US use you some more and hang you out to dry... (I believe the pretty much sums it up???)
SEEING THAT YOUR POST HAS BEEN REFERRING TO THE INDUSTRY AND PH'S AS A WHOLE I STRONGLY TAKE EXCEPTION TO THIS STATMENT.
With all repsect sir and I will do this in public, I think you are being very harsh on the industry and what I would like to believe as professionals as a whole, I understand that you have had 32 safaris, I have roughly been in the industry for half that time but have done way more safaris, I believe that you have turned it into an art..... PICKING THE WRONG OUTFITTER, (IF YOU HAVE HUNTED WITH SOME GOOD ONES I HOPE THEY ARE FULLY AWARE OF WHAT YOU ARE INSINUATING.......................) AS I WOULD REGARD THIS AS FAIR.
NO1. YOUR NEW ATTITUDE WILL GET YOU NOWHERE.... AS I AND I KNOW MANY OTHER MEN, BOW TO NO ONE................,
ALL CLIENTS ARE TREATED EQUALLY I HONESTLY DONT CARE IF YOU OWN ENRON OR IF YOU ARE THE MAIL MAN YOU WILL GET THE BEST OUT OF ME AND OUR CREW AND I WILL GO AS FAR AS TO SAY OUT OF 99% OF THE INDUSTRY.
I AM TRULY DISSAPOINTED THAT THIS HAS BEEN THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU CAN SAY YOU HAD AFTER 32 YEARS OF HUNTING OUR LOVELY CONTINENT AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF $ SPENT...,
BURNOUT COULD BE THE PROBLEM BUT EVEN WITH THAT YOU SHOULD GET POSITIVES NO MATTER HOW BURNTOUT YOU ARE, I DO APPOLOGIZE FOR MY BRUTAL HONESTY BUT BELIEVE THAT IT SHOULD BE SAID FROM PH/OUTFITTERS PERSPECTIVE
FORTUNATLY I KNOW MANY OTHER WHO HAVE TAKEN SO MANY POSITIVES, OUT OF 45, I TRULY HOPE YOU FIND THE GOOD SIDE OF HUNTING IN AFRICA AGAIN..
EXTREMLY DISSAPOINTED ON YOUR BEHALF
BUT AS USSUAL......
MY BEST ALWAYS.
Hey, sorry, but I meant to post this reply to Peleton . I was commenting to agree that burn out happens and sometimes we need to step back for a break to re-energize. I've been a Christian missions minister for years and led 30+ teams to china and former Soviet Union. Averaging 3 trips a year, honestly, I got burned out. I've taken a couple years off and am ready to go back. Wife and I will likely go together for a few weeks next summer. I've only been once on safari, but my outfitter wasn't a gossiper or backbiter. If he was, I wouldn't go back with him again. Life's too short and, as I posted, if someone will gossip to you, they'll gossip about you.
I've no doubt that Peleton has come across this in his 32 trips. Surely not all, nor most, PHs, but assuredly some. PHs are people just like everyone else with their own personal strengths and weaknesses.
I reposted this to make it clear I wasn't intending to slight anyone, quite the contrary, was just trying to encourage a hunting brother to step back and re-focus. But, I do apologize for my error.
I don't take it that Peleton was insinuating that all PHs were like that or even most of them. It seems he has come across it, though, and I imagine he's being honest.
I Certainly didn't take it that he meant all PHs.
I think he was just sharing from his heart that he's weary and should take a break for a season or so.
jaco i agree peleton seemed to be tarring everyone with the same brush which is unfortunate, but as has been said hopefully he is just jaded and bit cynical of things and can refind the fun and enjoyment he used to have. over the last 23 years i have made quite a few friends with ph`s, some who have turned into great friends. most of these i never hunted with but got to know at sci or when i used to be in zambia and zimbabwe messing around for 2 to 3 months a year. i know they jaunt around the usa staying with clients between shows and having a bit of a holiday, but i have never heard them talking about visiting these clients in any other way than looking forward to it and visiting what are now friends. as rphguy says there will be piss takers as in any walk of life, just an unfortunate way people are. jaco i think you could have picked a better one than enron, unless the money was spent on hunting? :biggrin2: as i said before it is the hunting clients who have made supposed ph stars out of some, but i think its human nature. you have film stars , track stars, pop stars etc so it was bound to happen with certain people who hunt, in that they from what i have watched and heard seem to have a near hero worship of their ph`s. jaco its great you treat everyone the same as thats how it should be, but with the way the shows have changed over the years from more of a fun party place where more hunts were probably sold at the office (main casino bar in what used to be ballys in reno), to a high pressure sales enviroment where where the ph`s etc have to be on parade on their company stands at opening time, then i guarantee the clients with big bucks will be courted and looked after better when trying to book them for a hunt than the one who is after a 7 day hunt. this is how business works, yes you will look after all clients very well, but any business will look after big spenders/regular return clients to a higher degree with a bit more subtle butt kissing , fact of life in any service industry which hunting is.
Brickburn good to see you coming out with your usual reasoned ,rational take on things
Really good discussion gents, even if we have taken a bit of a detour (as usual!). For Message, yes you are in for an incredible experience, which like most things, will be measured largely by what you put into it (and how open a mind you bring to the table). Take gobs of non hero shots with your cameras. Wildlife, the camp, everything - particularly the people. I think one reason most Americans are comfortable with southern Africans is that we share a lot of historical parallels which leave a mark on a people. They rested homes from a wilderness, fought an imperial power, and for southern Americans at least, have gone through the collective trauma of losing a war which resulted in a seismic cultural shift. From someone who has spent his adult life banging around the planet, I know of no other place on earth where Americans are likely to feel so "at home" among strangers. And yet, here too are enormous differences. The more you come to know the black African staff, the more you will realize how little we know about those cultures and how truly complex are the region's social challenges. But I am confident that you will simply like being around the Africaner.
As a college student, I guided every day of Louisiana's long duck season. That hardly makes me an expert on the hunting industry, but I think it does give me a bit of perspective on hunter/client relationships. I developed relationships with clients over those four years which were the basis of life-long friendships in some cases and life-long tales of humor or horror in others. I believe most PHs who are good at their trade are very good at making their clients feel comfortable - whether good shots or bad - sober or drunk - humble or arrogant. They have to be, or they will fail in their business. It is perfectly ok to be "friends" for a couple of weeks. Should that evolve into true friendships over time then great, but they certainly shouldn't be expected to do so.
So to complete this circle, I think you are embarking upon an adventure where you are paying the freight. You should expect that investment to leave you treated very well indeed, with a host of memories to share for the remainder of your life. Unlike a lot of other places in the world, you are also going to a region where you are likely to fit in very comfortably and yet is one that is otherwise very different than home. Finally, you will meet great people, who by the nature of their business and the location of their homes, you will only see occasionally in the coming years. Some few will become true friends, but nearly all will be the sort of people who will take real joy in renewing acquaintances as opportunity presents in the coming years.
Greetings Jaco. First; THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT. I see this as simply a discussion, no more, no less. Enron? I started a small industrial supply company 20 some odd years ago, I went nowhere for the first 6-7 of those years. I dedicated my entire being to growing my business. It grew, so did I. I grew up in a hunting family in the SW USA and never stopped. I just evolved. I evolved into an international hunter. I'm not a big bucks guy, just a guy that is finally getting to enjoy the fruit of many years of my own hands at work.
I take my hunting just as seriously. I always show up ready both physically and emotionally to keep my head in the game for the entire safari Whether that safari is 10 days or a 28 day marathon in CAR like I had this year. I ride and race bicycles here in America, hence the name "Peleton". Walking for LDE? easy days work, walk on flat ground for 25-30K's no problem, the heat in CAR? I live in Arizona and am accustomed to it.
M point is, I take it seriously and give my hunting team (the entire team) 100% every day, all day. They always respond to my dedication and I have fantastic safari's.
When I raced for series wins, I "had" I to ride to train and stay competitive, I lost the passion for racing because of the "have to" mentality, I stopped for several years and now the passion is back. Now I train as many hours as I did back then but, I keep the sport fun. I would expect my passion for hunting to return as well. Mind you I still hunt in my home state as much or more perhaps than ever.
Some of my jaded opinion, not angry, just skeptical, has come from interacting on AR. There are countless pissing match's, members divide themselves into camps, they base their comments on their own personal popularity, not based on the truth or how they really feel. I got into several dust ups with the owner over there for stating opinions not consistent with his or taking forum favorites to task. Sometime's there is a burden knowing more to these stories than is being told on the forum's.
There is no shame in making bad shots, Hell I shot a lion in the back foot at 27 yards. My point is this. African Safari hunting is a Gentlemen's Sport. It has devolved into something else, the chest thumping, the one up man ship that goes on. Honor amongst men of like minds. In my post's from the beginning to now, I have conducted myself as such and will always do so. I will always act on a forum no different than I do if you and I were sitting in a leopard blind. Silent, Predictable and Honorable.
Jaco, I am not or at least don't intend on indicting an entire industry, just from my own experience, I need a break. If you go back and read the first post, I think you will get it. There is absolutely no hostility, if some comes through, my sincere apologies.
Hi Red Leg,
We were cross posting. Great post. I was in RSA on a family vacation and we went to the Voortrekker's monument in Pretoria. The similarities to the settling of the American west are amazing. We fought many different tribes of American Indians and they fought tribes of Indigenous people's, Zulu's and the like. It was a real interesting trip.
Also, my apologies to the OP, I have unintentionally hijacked your thread. I will start a new one if required.
Yes and then the English came just to get our gold and wealth. If it was not for that the Boer nation would have been great and many in numbers. Many off our woman and children were killed in those awful concentration camps.The Boers gave the mighty English army hell and was it not for the there families that was locked up they would not have surrendered.
My grandmother was a nurse in one of those camps and I remember the tragic stories she told.
But time healed and the Afrikaans speaking white folk is very adaptable and forgave the "Kakies" . I just want to mention that that the black people that time hid a lot of our woman and children and kept them out of the concentration camps and alive.
Everyone is still showing up for the gold, diamonds and the wealth (wildlife) that is present today.
As the OP please let me chime in -
The ONLY reason I remain part of this forum is, because, it is unlike any others I have tried to be part of. The commentary about being skewered elsewhere seems true to me. Here- everyone acts like a gentleman and is more than willing to help others.
I can see that with 30+ trips one might get "jaded" in their view of others. burnout- it could be but the postulations have some merit. Having been in contact with a few "hunting celebrities" over the years there are only a couple that I would want to "host " for dinner. Many get caught up in their own importance and lose site of where they came from or who made them what they are. But, you have to have a big ego if your going to be out there on TV.
Will some PHs talk behind your back? I'm sure there are some that will and do. But in the end, it is us, the traveling hunter, that gives them fodder to chew. How many of us have there been on TV safaris that can't shoot, take hours to pull the trigger, don't know their rifle? How many of us have shown up in Africa with a "shopping list" like we were going to McDonald's not even having fired our brand new rifle? How many of us want to get in and get out as fast as possible to get back and hang the trophies to brag about? We do it to ourselves and we wonder why "they" talk. It's up to all of us to dispel the stereotype image many have of the "American hunter" "Redneck" language and actions may sell on TV here (why I don't know) but it won't get us anywhere over seas!
This thread has gone exactly where I thought it might when I started it. I have seen many many friends who would not go to Africa until I went along with them. Friends who now know what the draw is. We all share both common and unique experiences about Africa that need to be shared if for no other reason that to let others, the "non-enlightened", know what we feel about the African experience. Those on this forum that actually are fortunate enough to be able to live that life full time, I salute you. I'm sure, at times, you would be interested in life over here as much as we are sometimes bored with it. It's all in ones perspective. And everyone has their own take on things. Not right, not wrong, just their personal take.
peleton- I'll stand you to a drink any time! Your take is just as valid as mine. As one who has over 6 times the experiences over there than I do, I want to hear about some of them from you. As I said many times in my previous life (retired now, aviation world), "All the training in the world can't replace experience. Someone better start listening to those with experience."
theo not a great time in history, but the boer/afrikaners dont exactly have a reputation anytime in their history of being paid up members of any civil liberties groups, until possibly 1994...........
This is cool! I wish we had more of you folks from "over there" who would chime in with real world experiences and history stories.
you sure cliffy? it might not go the way you want....unch::laughing:
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