What is Put & Take Shooting?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Andrew McLaren, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. Andrew McLaren

    Andrew McLaren AH Member

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    Before any subject is discussed it is always a good idea to firstly define exactly what is being discussed. So let us attempt to define Put & Take shooting. Here a quote from an article by Gerhard Damm, an internationally well known and respected conservationist. Hunting & Related Issues | Sustainable Development & Environmental Awareness

    Canned Shooting and Put & Take
    Shooting and killing captive bred or habituated (in other words, human-imprinted) big-game animals in commercial killing areas where a person with a gun or a bow is guaranteed a kill. Canned means that the animal is impaired in its natural inclination to flee from its pursuer either by means of drugs or by restraints such as small fenced enclosures, cages, ropes, chains, or by habituation to human presence. Often quite incorrectly referred to as "canned hunting" canned shooting has nothing to do with hunting and those who practise it are not hunters. Canned shooting has been much publicised in the media and has given hunting a bad name in the view of the general public. Put & Take refers to the releasing of captured and bought animals into fenced enclosures for the sole purpose of having them killed by paying clients. The game owner has no intention of building up breeding stocks or viable populations. The animals are released and killed within a short time after release. The paying client does not necessarily know that the game owner practises "Put & Take" Provincial and national legislative bodies, professional and amateur hunting organisations and nature conservation agencies are under an obligation to finalise adequate legislation and rules preventing these practices. Emphasis added to the last sentence is mine.

    As I am not only a hunter, but a Professional Hunter, I really feel obliged to actually do my bit, by this posting, to prevent Put & Take shooting. Incidentally, watch this space, as more postings about the same or similar subjects will follow.

    Why does some Hunting Outfitters partake in the despicable practice of Put & Take shooting?

    Money! Very plain and simple they wish to make more money! How? Hunting Outfitters (HO) make money by offering overseas clients hunting opportunities. They provide a service for which they are perfectly entitled to charge a fee and make a fair profit. Nothing wrong with that at all! The money they actually get is by charging a Daily Rate and Trophy Fees. In Economics 101 you will learn that the more days they have clients for and the more trophies the clients shoots the more money they make. OK? Simple!
    Where does the HO get the trophies for their clients to shoot?

    To answer this simple question, lets start by first just defining what is trophy animal? A workable definition would be: A fully mature male of the species which has horns [or tusks] typical, or larger than typical, in size and shape of the species.

    Now let us for simplicity of explanation assume that a certain area is managed by 100% perfect herd management. There is no management change that will result in an increase in the number of trophy animals produced in that area in any given year. If the HO using all the trophies produced by the area wants to make more money he has to get more trophies. This is done by simply buying suitable live trophies at one of the dozens of annual live game auctions held all over South Africa. The live trophies are then released [or Put] in the hunting area and the overseas clients shoots [or Takes] them within a short time. Simple; Put a trophy in your hunting area, & let a client Take it soon afterwards!

    Incidentally I quite agree with Gerhard Damm that the clients often, or even mostly, do not know that the HO they are hunting with makes use of live bought trophies in such a Put & Take manner.

    Andrew McLaren
  2. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    100% agreed, Money makes HO's run volume.... 20 - 30 hunters is simply not enough..... they build empires and work as a meat factory... rather than a full on, completly professional hunting outfit that supports fair chase and ethical hunting methods.

    Quota's are of no interest to such HO's there for they need to supplement game numbers on a continuall basis. Which has nothing to do with bloodstock or gene variation.

    Thanks Andrew be prepared for the two of us to receive the wrath of others....... (to be honest I REALLY do not care).

    Good post.
    My best always.
  3. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    how do you see it for example if the operator has a ranch with animals on it, but it isnt big enough to provide him with the required amount of huntable animals he needs in a year to remain afloat. so he utilizes the animals that have been born on his place , but needs to top up certain animals through the year to provide his income, and not put too much strain on his resident animals?
  4. RickB

    RickB AH Fanatic

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    This topic as with any topic will have some arguments each way. I would have to completely disagree with the "meat factory" approach. As would most hunters I feel. Proper game management should not lead to the need to "put" more animals back on to ones farm. I can see the need to add genetics into a gene pool for the health of the heard or say a bad year because of disease. The harder part to this topic is how and can one regulate this practice? Not sure that there is really a way to do so other than limit the number of animals someone can buy in a year. But who is the government to limit what animals one can buy? I feel the simplest answer is the best answer.....proper game management.
  5. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Hunting areas or consession land is the answer, if you are putting to much pressure on your resident game population it means that the volume of clients that you are putting through is to high and not sustainable.

    Very true Rick B sustainable game management

    My best
  6. joester

    joester AH Veteran

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    Just speaking for myself, of course, but I would not feel good about having any "trophy" mounted that spent any part of its life in a cattle truck... On the other hand after my 1st African , having had eland steaks, I immediately googled "Texas eland" and chose a ranch where I shot a tasty cow eland, took 200 lbs meat home & donated rest to local foodbank...nothing trophy about it...
  7. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    jaco i would say that is fine for you as i understand you operate from a large property, but what about smaller operations that still need more clients through to make a living, than the animals they have available , are you saying they shouldnt be allowed to top up with a few animals through the year, and should maybe close shop? big concessions would be great but i didnt think that was how it worked in SA, but that is something i dont know about.
  8. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    This is a typical practice for bird hunts/shoots around the entire world. Pheasants in particular.

    When I first ran into Wildlife Auctions in my research for hunting in Africa I was shocked. I had assumed, in ignorance, that National Geographic was running around on the edge of Joburg taking pictures. Not really but I was very ethnocentric in my thinking.
    To see that you can buy a Black Rhino and basically anything else was an eye opener.

    It dawned on me that I needed to look very closely at Outfitters and the properties they were offering for my hunts.
    Google Earth helped me to see the proposed countryside for the hunt. If it did not fit with my expectation, I moved on.
    For example, Flat crop land with power lines and road traffic noise was not my idea of where I wanted to find a Kudu.

    High Fence hunting is a big issue at home. It is allowed for "boars", Bison, anything non-indigenous but NOT for anything that is found in the wild; Deer and Elk for instance. You do not get a typical Rocky Mountain Elk hunt behind a fence.
    I had to get my mind around that concept as well. It is not illegal to hunt behind a fence in RSA, but it is a requirement and necessity to contain and protect your property.

    The fact that a property owner/outfitter purchased and released game animals at some point is not the issue. All game animals were basically eradicated to erroneously protect cattle (Rinderpest, etc.) in many areas of RSA and had to be reintroduced or they would not exist in many areas. Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Rhino are an excellent example. Without this successful park we would likely not be able to see Rhino on any of the properties we all hunt. They sure did not jump the fence!

    So it must have something to do with the time delay to determine P&T.
    At what point in time is a Nyala in Limpopo or a Gemsbok in the Eastern Cape NOT P&T?
    Anything non-indigenous is P&T?

    If there is a loading ramp or Boma anywhere on the property should we avoid the property?

    Yes, it would be disturbing to me to have Kudu (anything) being released from a chute/crate only to be shot moments later.

    In a perfect market everyone would avoid shooting in a Boma or small enclosure and the market would eradicate the product, but someone always seems to be willing to pay to do so.

    Check your potential destinations and make certain it fits your ethics.
  9. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    As for the put and take hunts it has its place just as free range animals do just stop and think about it for a minute with the millions of dollars spent on hunting in Africa and the countless amount of hunters that travel to Africa to hunt what kind of pressure would it put on native wild animals if that was all that was hunted. Take the Scimitar horned Oryx according to reports they are extinct or almost extinct in their native habitat to a point where here in the states we can't even hunt or import them anymore I for one would not like this to happen to the wildlife of Africa or any other country as far as that go's so I do think that put & take hunting has its place as well as making it more affordable for those of us that can't afford those 14day $50,000 Safaris chasing game in their natural habitat.
  10. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    WoW...

    Put & Take...Big Topic...Our group seems to be on a roll now...

    Who has fished in the US lately... Last 100 years or so. So if you have fished you are in the group. Take the kid this weekend to (you name it lake) were it was stocked and the fish are ready to be caught use X bate for best results. By the way we stock this lake every 2 weeks on Tuesday at 10 AM be here to have the best chance. You see this every where.

    Fishing was the start of Put and Take.

    Lakes, Rivers, Ponds. All fishing grounds are included, great lakes included. Some of these small ponds can be walked around in under 10 minutes, is that fair to the fish to be stalked so intently.

    Every year every state has a stocking program. Cities some ranchers also have supplemental stocking programs with tagged fish winning hugh sums of money.

    Do our sportsman find this unsportsmanlike. I do not think so. States and cities receive extra money for the special licenses they sell to fish these waters.

    Any Ranch property is always rotating it livestock (game) animals to make sure that they have the best gene pool available to produce the animals they want.

    Now tell me again how hunting is any different than the Put and Take that has been going on for over 100 years. Game animals is only new to the game and it is here to stay.

    Your option is to purchase some property in the sate or country you want to hunt and see what game fowl or animals you can retain when hunting season starts to have a go at. Will not happen unless you can purchase upwards of 1,000 acres and even at that it would be difficult unless you fenced it and artificially feed and watered the animals. Your whole season would be out the door when your fence is cut and if a few dogs were to run through your property to chase the deer out the other side. Or when the wind is right a small brush fire to push them out the other side. I have seen this take place yearly so it happens.
  11. Stretch

    Stretch AH Fanatic

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    Bob - Is that true about not being able to hunt Scimitar Oryx in Texas any more?
  12. Andrew McLaren

    Andrew McLaren AH Member

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    Jaco, Thanks for the moral support!

    spike.t, I really feel for those who own a far to small property to get rich from hunting only the excess trophies I知 one too! If a hunting outfitter's marketing is so successful that his trophy demand outstrips his ready trophy supply he has to simply be prepared to hunt on concessions owned by others and make less profit by having to pay someone else for trespass fees and their trophy prices. I have to live with that! Please realize that I知 not condemning the Put & Take practice as such, but I知 condemning the dishonesty associated with it when clients are not properly informed about what they are really shooting.

    RickB, My goal with this, and some more postings that will soon follow, is not to stop the practice that ideal is doomed to failure before even starting! Part of the reply to your question is contained in the reply to spike.t above.

    Joester, Congratulations on coining a very good phrase: Spent part of it's life in a cattle truck! Lovely!

    BRICKBURN, Applause! :clap: :clap:

    James.Grage, Thanks for pointing out that a lot of Put & Take happens in the fishing world too.

    In good hunting.
  13. Stretch

    Stretch AH Fanatic

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    I found the anwser to my own question. It is still legal to hunt Scimitar Oryx in Texas but first you must obtain a permit to do so. See link: http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/pdf/USFWSThreeAntelope-MythsandFacts.pdf

    I agree put and take has it's place but it needs to be done as fair chase. It is up to each individual to decide what is acceptable. When I booked my Africa hunt I understood that it was high fence, so part of my personal decision to go with the outfitter that had a larger property. I am glad there is an affordable option for me to be able to experience the pursuit of African game.
  14. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    stretch

    Hunting is still available...the anti are working hard to change the game laws of Texas to outlaw the hunting of them.

    The report that i read is that if the laws is pass to ban hunting in Texas the species will be non existent in a few years. The few game ranched that have save the Scimitar oryx are fight the legislation as well as the game ranch association.

    You see the anti hunting group is spending big bucks to try and push this law through and if they are able to accomplish this small break in our hunting groups. Other legislation is in the wings waiting to be brought forward to shut down other game ranch activities...Starting with exotics and then deer ranches.

    When the Anti-hunting groups are able to divide sportsmen we are in trouble. That is why post on our forum are monitored and used against us. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

  15. redriver

    redriver AH Member

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    You can hunt Oryx right now in Texas if you like although the fight is on. Hunting for Oryx, Black buck, addax etc has given value to the animals that now thrive in Texas while they are very endangered in their native lands. If a ban goes through there will be a quick and massive slaughter of these animals. like it or not, if it pays it stays.
    Where I live and hunt, whitetails are the main game animal. I put a hell of alot of time and energy into feeding and managing these deer in my hunting area.
    I enjoy the managment as much as the hunting. For a couple of months each year I get a parade of knuckleheads that hit the woods on bordering properties and benefit from my work and shoot anything that moves. If it were legal, I would high fence the whole place in a second. It took me a long time to come to this but I am totally on board with high fence and whatever name you want to give it. It would be great to walk out into some mystical wilderness where there was plenty of game running everywhere but that is a fairy tale. There are a few of these utopias left in the world but they are not available to the majority of big game hunters.
  16. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Stretch Thanks for that link I had been told by an outfitter in Texas that when they went on the endangered species list that you could no longer hunt them I'm glad thats not totally true but I need to check into it a little further to see if you hunt them outside the US will you be able to import the trophies.

    I also agree with you on this as to the reason I hunt with Hunters Hill Safaris they have 55000 acres including fenced and free range animals.
  17. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    andrew can you clear this up for me as you seem to be contradicting yourself, or maybe i have read it wrongly. when you started this post you stated it was "to do your bit to prevent put and take shooting", yet here you say you are "not condemning the put and take practice as such". as we know operators do move around and hunt on other properties, but if he just wants to hunt his land then why not? i am not saying buy the animal and release it next to the client, but if the animals are released during the season as he takes his home grown ones what is wrong with that? i dont think they will get rich by doing this as you seem to think they will. in your other post in what i presume is a series, combined with what is in this one i get the feeling that you wouldnt mind if the owners of smaller areas of land ceased to operate. as for part of its life in a cattle truck i would say every game ranch/reserve in south africa buys and sells game at the numerous auctions, or as with the operators of smaller plots would you like to see this curbed? there just seems to me to be a slightly "holier than thou attitude" running through your posts. regards
  18. Andrew McLaren

    Andrew McLaren AH Member

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    My starting statement was not as well worded as it should have been. I wish to do my bit to "prevent Put & Take shooting being cleverly disguised as hunting." Condemning Put & Take shooting will have absolutely no effect - people make money by doing it! I am not going to waste my time attempting to stop the practice. At best I hope to prevent some dishonesty by hunting outfitters who either tell blatant lies about the fact that they Put trophies on their properties specifically to be Taken by their clients, or they simply keep quiet about it. In many cases there are alternative options for owners of smaller hunting areas to be able to accommodate more hunters than for just the trophies that they can "grow at home." I would never want them to go out of business! Besides myself being one of them, that would harm the whole hunting industry!

    If you detect a slight "holier than thou attitude" in my postings I'm disappointed. If you had detected a "significant" or a "definite" in stead of a "slight" holier than the next man attitude I would have been much more satisfied. :) But, in a serious way, I am really trying to keep my own hunting to conform to my own idea of what is ethical and what is not. But that is just for me! No-one else needs to conform or even take note of my ethics. What you will however never find in any posting about ethics is that I try to impose my views about ethics on anyone! I will state my view, but I will not condemn another for his different view.

    I will soon post a few thoughts about ethics, so please bear with me a while and in this thread discuss the issue of my interpretation of the Gerhard Damm definition of Put & Take.
  19. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    thanks for the rewording , and i promise to detect a "significantly greater attitude " in future. :)
  20. Ethan

    Ethan AH Senior Member

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    It is absolutely up to each hunter to set their ethical compass on how/what/where thery are going to hunt. I think everyone agrees we must all treat the game ethically and take the animals in a swift and sure manner. How we get to the animals is the debate. From my own perspective I think there is room for everyone.

    I am not a super serious hunter. I enjoy hunting and fishing, but spend more time at the little league fields than my tree stand. And I work a ton of hours. So when I get a chance to go to Africa, I leap at it. But I am confined by pressures to only be able to go for 5 to 8 days of hunting. So, do I pick outfitters with thousands of hectacres and challenging hunts? Or, do I pick an outfitter with a good selection of game where I am going to have a better chance of seeing and shooting? I guess it is tourism with a gun versus big game hunting.

    I support my local SCI chapter, actively argue against the greenies and I think do my part for the side of folks who want hunting to continue to exist (and there is a large, vocal group who don't want to see another animal on a wall ever.) But I do sense that many hunters extoll a hunter model that is somewhat unrealistic economically and time-wise. And it probably breeds a certain sense of fear in new African hunters that they are doing something "wrong" in how they go about thier first or second safaris.

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