WARNING! Traveling with Muzzleloader Powder & Primers

Discussion in 'Before & After the Hunt' started by ctulpa, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. ctulpa

    ctulpa AH Member

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    In the United States, the TSA at the airports are now checking for muzzleloader powder or pellets as well as primers as they are prohibited from being in your luggage for travel on commercial aircraft.

    Can anyone post where we can purchase or get muzzleloader powder, primers and supplies in different African countries?

    I recently had a friend get checked by TSA with his muzzleloader in the Salt Lake City airport. The TSA is now looking for muzzleloaders and asking where is your powder and primers. If you have the powder or primers in your checked baggage or even with your locked ammunition, you will be arrested and charged with a felony.

    My friend had put some pellets in his locked ammunition case as well as had some loaded in shotshells. He is being charged with 4 felony counts with trying to fly with those. They also went to his house with a warrant and took his passport and all his guns to hold. He was ordered not to leave his state or the country without court approval. He was assigned a probation officer that checks on him and that he must check in with periodically until his court date. This is all before even going to court and has not been convicted of anything.

    So anyone hunting with a muzzleloader should not even try to take the powder or pellets in their luggage and will need to find a way to get their powder and primers in the country where they are hunting.

    If you know of any sources in any African countries where we can obtain the pyrodex powders or pellets or any other muzzleloader powders and primers, please let us know in this post.

    Thank you!

    Cliff Tulpa
  2. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Not to be a jerk, but transporting blackpowder, substitutes, primers, etc in your checked luggage has been illegal for some time now. For a number of years now I have been having to get blackpowder/substitutes and primers and have them on hand for muzzleloader hunters flying up here to Canada on hunts.

    My point is that this is nothing new and although some people have been doing it and getting away with it.............it is like playing Russian Roulette and rather foolish considering the way things have been since 9/11.

    I have had several people I know hunt with muzzleloaders in RSA and Namibia. The operators they went with managed to get what they needed and have it on hand as long as they had sufficient notice. I am sure some of the guys will comment further.
  3. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Cliff, Thank you so much for this post, which I made sticky because I think it is so important, I will include it also in my newsletter to make hunters aware of how serious this matter is... I am sorry to hear about your friend's situation and I am shocked that they have charged him with 4 felony counts.

    I was just talking to someone about this exact issue at length at the SCI show. I have personally counseled hunters to refrain from traveling with black powder for many years now and know that you can find black powder in Namibia, it can be ordered.

    Pirodex, the powder normally used by American hunters is not available however FF or FFF powder is. It is packed in 500g packets at the cost of about N$ 650.00. Your outfitter cannot buy it in advance, but can order it so that it is available when you arrive in Namibia. Outfitters don’t have a license to buy it, but as an American citizen it is no problem.

    I will get the address and contact info for the gun shop in Namibia where it can be found. It may also be available in South Africa however I am not certain about that, maybe some of the South Africa outfitters here can chime in.

    Due to this, Jim Shockey may be forced to revert to a hunting with a regular rifle instead of hunting with a muzzleloader as he is known for...
  4. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    NAMIBIA

    AHRENS GUNS & AMMO CC
    Jannie Lottering
    Windhoek, Namibia
    tel (264) 61.251.225
    fax (264) 61.259.097
    cell (264) 81.1249.292
    No e-mail address

    Namibian hunting outfitters should also be able to assist their clients with this.
  5. ctulpa

    ctulpa AH Member

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    ammunition, powder and TSA

    Hi Kelly,

    As most everyone knows, that traveling with blackpowder has always been prohibited on the airlines.

    And that is part of the issue here. My friend was asked if he had black powder" for his muzzleloader and he responded that he did not. He was traveling with 777 pellets, which are not "black powder". 777 pyrodex pellets are a DOT approved substitute and can be shipped in the USA as such and is not classified as "black powder".

    Ammunition is allowed on commercial aircraft per TSA rules. I have requested a clarification from TSA on a ruling as to what is allowed to be transported as ammunition.

    The TSA in Salt Lake City was also asking if any of the rifle cartridges were "re-loaded" or "hand-loaded" and if they were, they would have confiscated those as well.

    So this issue may be more far reaching than just muzzleloader pyrodex and blackpowder and also include any ammo that is "re-loaded' or "hand-loaded" as it could contain powder and primers that can be used in a muzzleloader.

    This may escalate into other issues on what ammo can be transported on airlines.

    I will keep you posted of what the TSA reply is on this issue.

    Best regards,
    Cliff
  6. ctulpa

    ctulpa AH Member

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    TSA researching

    Copy of TSA reply that they are forwarding for research.



    Re: questions on ammunition <<#414797-532498#>>
    TSA-ContactCenter [TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov]
    Mon 1/25/2010 2:17 PM
    cliff@woatv.com

    Thank you for your email message.

    Please accept our appreciation for you taking the time to share this information with us. Your email has been forwarded to the appropriate office for action as required. Your help and support are important contributions to ensuring the safety and security of the Nation's security.

    We encourage you to check the latest information at TSA | Transportation Security Administration | U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

    TSA Contact Center



    --- Original Message ---
    From: "cliff" <cliff@woatv.com>
    Received: 12/28/09 7:03:08 PM EST
    To: "TSA Contact Center" <TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov>
    Subject: questions on ammunition
    Hello,

    I would like your assistance in clarification on your rules and regulations concerning the transportation of small arms ammunition about commercial passenger air carriers.

    I have read your printed regulations and still am in need of further clarification.

    Can you please describe what constitutes ammunition that will be allowed to be in checked baggage:

    1) Can the small arms ammunition including shot-shells and rifle cartridges (for hunting and shooting sports) be hand-loaded? (manufactured at home from commercially available components). Obviously the other rules of container requirements would have to be met, in locked metal or wood container as required to be used when transporting commercially manufactured small arms ammunition. It would not be loose and would be protected in a plastic container specifically made for holding small arms ammunition.


    Regarding ammunition for muzzleloader rifles and shotguns that will be allowed in checked baggage:
    2) Can the small arms ammunition be non-blackpowder propellant substitutes such as DOT approved Hodgdon 777 pellets or similar other forms of non-blackpowder substitute propellant if in the original manufacturers container and DOT approved?

    3) Can the small arms ammunition be modern 209 primers in the manufacturers container (not old-style percussion caps). These would be the same primers as used in the commercially available shot-shells.

    There is a considerable amount of confusion on the above topics with many sportsmen and shooting sports enthusiasts that use commercial airlines to travel to their shoot sports competitions and to their hunting destinations worldwide.

    Thank you in advance for your clarifications on these topics.


    Cliff Tulpa

    Host / Director

    Wild Outdoor Adventures Television
    WOA Productions LLC
    503-519-7591 cell
    503-616-4442 IP
    Wild Outdoor Adventures TV



    ------ TCC Control Number: ------
    <<#414797-532498#>>
  7. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Cliff..........interesting. I am sure everyone will be waiting to see what sort of a reply you get. I was told a long time ago by a US Customs officer that the intent of the restrictions were to prohibit loose powder......be it black powder, substitutes or smokeless........and primers or caps of any description in checked baggage on passenger flights. Only loaded ammunition in proper containers was allowed. My understanding had always been that things like that had to go cargo and with hazmat permits.

    I saw the wording on the TSA site and it is of course different than the wording I found on this side of the border which prohibits loose gun powder or pellets, and of course primers or caps. Of course the easy answer to all of this is that they need to say what they mean and not expect people to guess what they mean.

    Anything connected with travel and firearms continues to be one of those areas where a lot of people feel apprehensive, as one never truly knows if the trip will be trouble free. And we all need to realize that the current mindset within the US DHS and their equivalents in other countries is not of one of a forgiving nature. It is charge first and let you try and dig your way out later.:(
  8. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Cliff, I look forward to seeing the TSA reply... It's my belief that things are just going to continue getting more and more strict on this front. The good old days of boarding a plane like a bus are gone!
  9. Craig Klintworth

    Craig Klintworth AH Member

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    Black Powder and Cap supplies in South Africa

    As a manufacturer of muzzleloaders we generally always have a supply of BLACK POWDER FFFg, FFg and 1 1/2 Fg by WANO and or SWISS, we do not get PYRODEX, 777 etc in South Africa as our market is just too small. In addition to this we also have caps in #10, #11, #11 MAGNUM and Musket Caps as well as a selection of flints in stock.

    If there are any hunters passing through Johannesburg we can probably put together a parcel of what they would like and need given a bit of notice.
  10. Terry Blauwkamp

    Terry Blauwkamp CONTRIBUTOR AH Member

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    Just what we need, another regulation to again screw up hunting.
  11. RogerHeintzman

    RogerHeintzman AH Enthusiast

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    In 2004, when I went to Texas on a hunt with muzzleloader my pellets were taken from me at my local airport, fortunately I knew the person and he told me to take the pellets out to my vehicle. I purchased pellets in Texas.

    In 2008, I was considering taking my smoke pole to RSA. I had e-mailed Shockey, and others about how they got their powders etc. to Africa, Nobody would reply. Then I e-mailed Knight Muzzleloaders directly and asked them what hunters were doing. Just as mentioned in one of the posts, loading shotgun shells with powder and pellets. Apparently, TSA is now aware of the tricks. Good things do come to a end.

    My PH located powder for me, Wano was one, but at $80.00 a pound, the muzzleloader stayed home. Rifle and archery will suffice.

    You never know what you'll find here on AH. What a great site.
  12. Craig Klintworth

    Craig Klintworth AH Member

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    As you know the S. A. Rand is quite a volotile currency but yes U.S. $ 80.00 for a 500gr tin is EXPENSIVE I can suppllyWANO , at present, at around R250.00 for 500gr this is around U.S. $33.00

    If hunters are wanting to source WANO or SWISS black powder, as well as caps, flints, bullets, lube etc in South Africa they can send me a mail of their requirements and we can make up a parcel for them.
  13. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Now I guess it is just me..............but if someone is loading pellets and primers into shotgun shells to take on a trip where they intend to use a muzzleloader............well am I the only one that thinks just maybe this suggests they are trying to hide something? That they in fact know they can't take pellets/powder and primers on a flight and are attempting to hide it by using a shotgun shell as camouflage?

    It makes it hard for me to drum up a lot of sympathy.
  14. ctulpa

    ctulpa AH Member

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    reply from TSA / HSA re: powder and primers

    I just received a reply from the TSA / HSA from my request for clarification on what types of ammunition, powders and/or primers that are allowed to be transported in checked baggage.

    Although it is not as clear and definitive as I would have liked, it does give us some additional clarification regarding reloaded ammunition and primers. It also give me another source for additional clarification.

    I am requesting additional clarification regarding the primers and powders from PHMSA now also.

    Here is their response:



    From: OSO-Correspondence [mailto:Oso-Correspondence@dhs.gov]
    Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 8:40 AM
    To: cliff@woatv.com
    Subject:


    Dear Mr. Tulpa:

    Thank you for your e-mail of December 28, 2009, to the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) Contact Center requesting clarification on TSA’s policy for transporting small-arms ammunition and primers aboard commercial aircraft.

    Federal regulations prohibit passengers from carrying any type of ammunition or primers on their person or in their carry-on baggage. However, under Federal regulations, you may transport certain classes of those items in your checked baggage if securely packaged in fiber, wood, or a metal box specifically designated to carry ammunition. Reloaded ammunition is classed as ammunition and may be placed in your checked baggage if packaged properly.

    The criterion for packaging ammunition is that the packaging shall be specifically designed to carry small amounts of arms ammunition (up to .75 caliber and/or any gauge shotgun shell). All magazines and clips must be securely placed in a pouch, holder, holster, or lanyard. Firearm cases may be used to transport ammunition, magazines, and clips when the case has a built-in compartment specifically designed to hold said items. The intent is to secure the ammunition from movement and prevent any object from being able to strike the casing (primers), thus preventing accidental discharge during transportation. If the packaging does not meet this requirement, TSA will contact the aircraft operator for removal of improperly packaged hazardous material.

    Primers must be protected from accidental initiation and must also be the type permitted by the Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations. You will have to determine the hazard class of the 209 Primers. Dependent on the hazard class, the primers may or may not be placed in checked baggage. To assist you in that determination, we suggest that you contact the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) at 1-800-467-4922. Although TSA does not have a limit to the number of allowable primers, air carriers may have their own requirements regarding the amount of primers that can be transported in checked baggage.

    All forms of black powder are prohibited in checked baggage or as a carry-on. If you have any questions on that prohibition, we suggest that you contact PHMSA.

    You must contact your air carrier prior to the day of your travel to determine if the airline permits the carriage of your ammunition and primers onboard their aircraft.


    Thank you for your inquiry, and I hope this information is helpful.

    Sincerely yours,

    Chad Bash
    Assistant General Manager
    for Communications and Resolution
    Office of Security Operations
  15. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Cliff, I much appreciate you sharing the TSA reply with all of us.
  16. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    It sounds like TSA is passing the buck to the PMHSA without giving direct answers.
  17. ctulpa

    ctulpa AH Member

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    Yes, it does look like TSA / HSA is trying to pass it off on some of the questions I had about powders and primers.

    But they did acknowledge in their response that they will allow reloaded ammunition to be taken in checked baggage. One of the issues that is happening at the airports is TSA is questioning hunters about ammunition that was reloaded. Not just shotgun shells, but also rifle ammunition.
    So the good news is their response here suggests that reloaded ammunition can be taken in checked baggage the same way that commercially manufactured ammunition can be transported.

    However, I would expect that anyone traveling with shotgun shells and a muzzleloader will still be questioned by TSA about their ammunition. Especially if you are not taking a shotgun!
    Even expect them to question where your powder and primers are and they will ask if you have any primers or powder with you for the muzzleloader.

    I will keep you posted on the responses when I receive it about primers and powder.
  18. Conservation Force

    Conservation Force CONTRIBUTOR AH Member

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    Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

    Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

    Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

    By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

    1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

    2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

    3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

    4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

    5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

    6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

    7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

    8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

    9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

    “I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

    10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

    11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

    12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

    13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

    14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

    15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

    In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
  19. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I fully understand the loyalty people feel to BP firearms but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bear in mind that transporting ANY BP or BP subsitute OR percussion caps on commercial aircraft is ALWAYS not only highly illegal and liable to put you in jail for a very long time and facing an immense fine but it also endangers the entire aircraft, everyone aboard it anyone on the ground it fall on top of.

    If your in doubt as to transport restrictions, just take a look at the container. If it's classified as explosive of any kind, it's highly illegal to transport and even if it says flammable it can only be transported under certain restrictions such as loaded into cartridge cases that are packed so that they're kept separated from each other.

    In the case of US citizens who try to take BP or BP substitute onto a commercial passenger aircraft, they're in breach of at least:

    Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods) Act
    DOT Research & special Programs Administration
    Patriot Act
    Safe Explosives Act
    Aviation & Transportation Security Act
    TSA Security Regulations
    AND several Executive Orders

    On top of that is the possibility that several anti terrorism acts could probably also be applied should they feel the need.

    Also remember there's no need to bring these items as similar items such as Sannadex are readily available here anyway.

    Remember, they don't take any prisoners in this post 9/11 society in which we live.
  20. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I should add that the only way primers can be transported is if they are already fitted into cartridge cases.

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