Sabatti doubles worked by Ken Owen

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by matt85, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Mike, I know you have forgotten more about doubles than I will ever know, but I have read from many sources over the many years I have been shooting, that a doubles bullets will converge at some distance, otherwise how do they get there in the first place? It stands to reason that they will have to go in opposite directions before and after the convergence. Again, this may be ignorance on my part and others, but that has always been my understanding. Not saying you are wrong, just explaining where I come from.
     
  2. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ses my 9.3 double puts the bullets at 100 yds exactly the width apart they come out of the barrels which is perfect. some doubles do cross after a certain distance which can be not far , but i wouldnt consider that correct.
     
  3. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Hi spike. I get that. My question for you or AKmike is this. Will not the bullets cross paths at some point either before or after the "regulated" point? Or will they, as some have said, continue to be parallel and maintain POI at all ranges regardless the regulation point? I don't see how that's possible.
     
  4. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ses i am not 100 pcnt on that, but come tues i will phone someone who knows more about doubles than even the best on here and ask him, as if mine is doing that at a 100 i dont see why they would ever cross as its the same at 50yds also. they wouldnt cross before the distance the rifle would be regulated at as they couldnt then head back together. i have been there and shot a double for the bloke who was doing the witchcraft for adjusting the barrels, and he was happy when they were shooting slightly apart at 50 or 60 yds , cant remember the exact distance.
     
  5. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    Let me respond by commenting within your writing:


     
  6. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    matt85,
    Here is what I suggest you do, to see if you can get your Sabatti to shoot better groups: Use only one bullet type, with profile same as originally used to regulate rifle, and later used to re-regulate it by Ken Own. Use only one powder type, R15, unless Ken Owen used a different powder for his regulation load with that given rifle. Don't use 4350 or 4831 no matter where you learned to use them. Don't increase the velocity you shot the 4 inch spread loads with--to increase velocity, all other factors being same, will only increase the spread. Actually, decrease that velocity slightly, hoping for less than 4 inch grouping with left/right barrels. Generally, try to duplicate loads Ken Own used to regulate with, to get same or close to same results as he did.
     
  7. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    sestoppelman: "Will not the bullets cross paths at some point either before or after the "regulated" point? Or will they, as some have said, continue to be parallel and maintain POI at all ranges regardless the regulation point? I don't see how that's possible."

    "but I have read from many sources over the many years I have been shooting, that a doubles bullets will converge at some distance, otherwise how do they get there in the first place? It stands to reason that they will have to go in opposite directions before and after the convergence. Again, this may be ignorance on my part and others, but that has always been my understanding. Not saying you are wrong, just explaining where I come from."
    _______________________________
    A lot of guys, gunwriters included, get it in their mind that when a double rifle is regulated at 50 yards, that the left/right bullets cross at that distance, which is false. When a double is regulated at 50 yards, or 75 yards, or 100 yards, it simply means that at that range is where the regulation checking was done. A PROPERLY REGULATED DOUBLE RIFLE WILL NEVER CROSS FIRE AT ANY RANGE, BUT WILL SHOOT LEFT/RIGHT PARALLEL TO INFINITY, WITHIN REASON. If a double rifle does cross, it was either never regulated properly, well, and/or it has lost its regulation for some reason. Hell, if a double rifle cross fired at 50 yards, can you imagine how far apart the bullets would be at 100 yards?

    spike tL "ses my 9.3 double puts the bullets at 100 yds exactly the width apart they come out of the barrels which is perfect. some doubles do cross after a certain distance which can be not far , but i wouldnt consider that correct."

    Yes, spike t, you are correct; your 9.3 is shooting as it should, regulated well.
     
  8. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    At a certain distance, the bullets can cross paths. Not because of the regulation, but because of the natural spread of each barrel that will make it possible for a bullet from the right barrel hit to the left of the bullet shot from the left barrel.
    The distance this happens all depends on each barrels accuracy and is in general a non-issue at the distances people use a double rifle.
     
  9. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    That is what I thought but you see above, doubleriflejack says no way.

    Jack, I don't think I meant to say the bullets would cross paths at 50 yds per se but that owing to the process, a double regulated to put its bullets close at a certain distance might eventually cross paths, farther down the line. If doubles can shoot to infinity like a bolt rifle, well why then are they regulated, shot, often opined to be limited to, such short distances? Why not shoot them at the Wimbelton Cup match?
     
  10. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ses i know you will know this so dont take offence, but they have to be regulated as you have the 2 barrels, and even though they look like they are in parallel when you 1st shoot them they can be a foot apart at 50/60yds. the regulation is to get them shooting both barrels within the 2 to 3 inch (hopefully) area usually at 50/60 yds. the reason they are regulated at that distance is that they were almost always and in the case of the bigger cals only shot with iron sights and usually at close distances while being used on dangerous game. with my 9.3 the longest shot with the irons on boar was 130 paces, so if regulated correctly they can be used at distances with irons that bolt rifles are. some of the companies that semi mass produce doubles use lasers to regulate their rifles, and i know from friends in the buisiness who make their own doubles but also sell these makes that sometimes it works, but there are some they have to reregulate by shooting them as they are way out. i agree with you that there are probably plenty of doubles out there where the bullets do cross at a certain distance due to the regulation having the bullets impacting too close together at the 50yds testing distance, as if they are closing at that distance they will cross somewhere not too far after. if the rifle is regulated so the bullets are impacting the distance apart or slightly wider than when they leave the rifle, then if there is any convergence/divergence its going to be so far down range its not going to matter especially with the big bores.
     
  11. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I don't think there are many doubles with so accurate barrels that they will not spread so much at longer distances that the bullets might not cross paths.
    And there is for sure not many able to regulate them so well that these accurate barrels will continue to shoot parallel for hundreds of yards.
    And it would cost a fortune to do it if you are not extremely lucky.

    Just look at what Sabatti has done with some of their doubles to make the barrels shoot rather close to each other. Grinding the rifling at the muzzle:eek:
    I doubt they are very accurate at longer distances...
     
  12. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Thanks Spike, No offense taken here. Just trying to wrap my ageing:rolleyes: head around the concept of a double that shoots like a bolt rifle. Not there yet.:confused:
     
  13. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    Sorry that I didn't get back sooner I was with family at a remote village in Ukraine for the Easter Celebration.

    It does look as if the subject has been covered though. The bullets should never cross if the regulation is done properly. Parallel is forever.
     
  14. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    "Parallel" can be forever for the center of each barrels grouping if someone has done an excellent regulation work, but some bullets can still cross paths because of each barrels accuracy(or lack of).

    My impression is that double rifle enthusiasts tend to think that their double rifles are as accurate as the better bolt rifles.
    I have yet to see a double rifle shoot sub moa with both barrels and still parallel at 200 yards and longer.
    There might be some, but I doubt there are many.
     
  15. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    :headscratch: Nw now you have me wondering what my 9.3 does at 200yds........:D
     
  16. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I would love to see the results :)
    I had a few double rifle enthusiasts here in Norway trying to prove to my how great their doubles shoot and I have still to be impressed with their 200 meter shooting :)

    Remember a lucky group doesn't count;)
    Shoot at least 3 groups with 3 shots from each barrel for each group.

    If you then get great results(3 x 3" or less groups at 200 yards), I want to buy your double :)
     
  17. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    its over in the uk at the moment so this will have to be a to do in the future, but you have got me wanting to know now and see what it will do!! :nailbiter:
     
  18. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    "At a certain distance, the bullets can cross paths. Not because of the regulation, but because of the natural spread of each barrel that will make it possible for a bullet from the right barrel hit to the left of the bullet shot from the left barrel.
    The distance this happens all depends on each barrels accuracy and is in general a non-issue at the distances people use a double rifle."
    __________________________
    There is no such thing as "the natural spread" of barrels, because, during regulation by a skilled double rifle regulator, he spreads the barrels apart with one or two wedges (which is not a natural spreading), and moves one vertically too, in relationship to the other barrel, to get good final regulation along horizontal plain (for SXS). The standard for big bores bullet impact is 3" spread at 50 yards, but with a lot of patience and skill, a good regulator can sometimes get shots to fire left/right spread of 2" or a little less, and if done properly, the left right bullet impact stays apart; never crossing to infinity. What is meant by that, is that for final check, you shoot not just one shot from each barrel, but you do shoot a group, three or four from each barrel, and take from the left group center point, and the right groups center point, the distance apart, standard being 3" for big bores, etc., as mentioned above. I have done regulation myself, having learned the process in gunsmithing school class taught by W. Ellis Brown, who later wrote his book, Converting Double Shotguns to Double Rifles, in which he explains the whole regulation process, for those of you who wish to read about it. Smaller caliber doubles are regulated at 75 yards, rather than 50 (meaning that is range they are checked, as regulation process is done). The goal of regulation is to get the two barrels to shoot left/right along a horiz. plain (for sxs) with a spread of 3 inches or less, as a standard, though sometimes some of them, with a lot of patience and care, can get down to spread of 2" or slightly less, between centers of two groups, one group from each barrel.
     
  19. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    "from my understanding a properly regulated gun should shoot roughly 1 inch apart at any distance with a given load."
    "this rifle does indeed have ejectors."
    ________________________
    Matt, Your understanding is not accurate. The standard regulation for a big bore is 3 inches apart, but sometimes a skilled and patient regulator can get spread down to 2" or slightly less. One inch spread is a real challenge; far from a standard--way too high an expectation for a big bore. A friend I know just test fired a $20,000 double rifle, .470, got 5 inch spread, one inch more spread than you got with a Sabatti priced around $4000+ to $5,000.
     
  20. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Doubleriflejack, my English might be bad and I might use the wrong term when I call it a natural spread.

    Each barrel has a inherent accuracy that will give what I call the natural spread of a barrel at a given distance.
    This goes for all kinds of rifle barrels, no matter if it is a single shot, double rifle or a bolt rifle.
    Not many barrels are able to shoot tighter than 1/2 moa even with a perfect bullet and load for that barrel.
    Many have problems to shoot 1 moa.
    And when you start soldering 2 barrels together as it is done with many double rifles, this becomes even more difficult because the two barrels affect each other.

    So to get by an example a double rifle to shoot a sub 3" group at 200 yards, you first need both barrels to each shoot sub moa and then you need to regulate the two barrels to shoot parallel and sub moa from each other.

    If the inherent accuracy of each barrel give you a larger spread than the regulated distance between the two barrels, the bullets from each barrel can cross paths even if the center of each barrel's group don't.
     

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