Outfitters & PH's have you ever been burned?

[Big5]

Mekaniks and Phoenix Phil, certainly you both make a good point. However, the alleged dead beat was obviously alive at the point he came up with an unlikely story about losing his wallet. He also remained alive long enough after returning home to supposedly further stall payment by way of correspondence with the owed outfitter. Just sayin'.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The defense against a libel suit is 'truth'. One would think there was some corroborating correspondence, acknowledgment of monies owed, excuses etc., in support of Gerrit's claim before communication ceased.

Don't disagree, but sometimes defending yourself with the truth is not worth the monetary cost incurred.

 

[BRICKBURN]

................... But... There is going to be some folks that will be feeling pretty silly if we find out that he had a heat attack a couple months ago and his 70 year old widow is trying to settle his estate and isn't even sure where his last hunting trip was, let alone if it was all paid for... Just sayin

I'll feel much worse if he was abducted by aliens in his attempt to search for his wallet.

 

[Big5]

Phoenix Phil, when you hold documented and damning truth in your hand for all to see (assuming supporting documentation exists) people who threaten libel seem to suddenly drop their claim. There is no cost to that.

 

[BRICKBURN]

...................

Time for a solution that works for both sides?

In the more remote places/countries I think an agent is going to be the answer.
It balances the risk out for the deposit required and the solvency issue.

After enough stories about crooked/naive agents I certainly do not feel like that is a perfect answer for either side. One more cog in the process to have to research.

It is still going to come down to developing trust.

 

[Hank2211]

..... It is still going to come down to developing trust.

Another reason to stick with those you know (but that's currently another thread!).

 

[JGRaider]

I'll never apologize for telling the truth. The cruel truth is far more honorable than a "smiling lie".

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phoenix Phil, when you hold documented and damning truth in your hand for all to see (assuming supporting documentation exists) people who threaten libel seem to suddenly drop their claim. There is no cost to that.

True, but not always. We're on the same page largely on this, no argument from my perspective. Just trying to look at it from all possible angles.

 

[Big5]

True, but not always. We're on the same page largely on this, no argument from my perspective. Just trying to look at it from all possible angles.

You are correct sir, there are exceptions to all things. But more likely than not exceptions to matters such as this will generally arise in 'he said /she said' situations. Exceptions to the truth as an absolute defense for libel and slander suits are rare when factual written documentation in support of the truth exists (we don't know if that's the case here). I also agree that the situation should be looked at from all angles which is why I suggested earlier that we should hear from the alleged offender.

So I am in agreement that we are more on the same page than not and I thank you for your input. Hence, no argument with your position here.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

To answer an earlier question sorry Ive been traveling but made it home at about 3 am this morning!!! Spending the day with my 3 girls!!!
On shows I usdually just go for a $1000 to not put guys off its like we have to be cautious the entire time as everyone wants to hunt but when it comes to contracts and money everyone distrusts everyone... (Absolute nonsense really)

All our policies or most of it works on the 50% daily rate deal as deposit but we move away from it ourselves... It's like we are our own worst enemies,

In the US I take any form of deposit, PayPal, credit card, cash or check, transfer, into my US account.
Internet I process all forms as well.

No deposits exchange hads without contracts being in place.

My best always

 

[Dragan N.]

Trust is a big problem because in this case its vital but either party can get burned pretty badly and the options for recourse can be limited. Its a problem because neither the payment methods the outfitter or client makes are sound business. From the client's perspective paying 50% fees upfront is risky, especially if the outfitter is from some remote country but generally for all of Africa its probably an issue. As if the outfitter in question chooses to burn you then trying to recover that money might be extremely difficult. For example trying to sue a Cameroonian outfitter in Cameroon will prob. be a problem or challenge to say the very least. Generally speaking you do not want to pay money up front.

Now at the same time allowing a client to go home and not having paid the balance is also a problem. Imagine doing a deal on craigslist where you let a person leave with an item while at the same time he hasn't paid it in full and you expect him to pay the remainder at a later date, not the best idea. But I guess the outfitter has more recourse than the client would in the situation described above because it is easier for a person from Africa to sue an American in America than the reverse. Notwithstanding that it is still very difficult and very costly. Legal fees are big $$$$ especially so when it is done across international boundaries.

But I certainly understand why an outfitter wants 50%, a client can do research on an outfitter, ask for references and call and talk to those references and inquire about the outfitter's character etc... and this is standard as it should be business. However an outfitter cannot do the same, if an outfitter asked a client for references and inquired about their character that would be very rude and would probably offend many clients. Unless its publically or known in outfitter circles (ie PH associations) that a certain person is a thief/crook the outfitter has no chance of knowing, and such a person would have already badly burned at least one person, so they need their insurance.

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

Hi all

Sorry for my silence!!! As been said here the trust issue goes both ways!! Just as the hunter when he pay his deposit trust that the outfitter will indeed pick him up at the airport and deliver what he has promised.. Just so do an outfitter trust that the hunter would have(or will be able) to pay for his trip!!

I have not named this client on here for paticular reasons!! I have comunicated with Jerome about this as it is his bussiness and i do not want to cross any boundries!!

I am waiting for his reply and input and, i will respect is decision what ever it is!!

For now we will just have to wait and see, thank you for everyones in put on this matter!!

Just for clarity and not to leave anyone hanging in the dark, the client has still not made any contact!! Maybe he was abducted as Brick said and dont have any internet coverage where he is???

Regards

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

One final thought on this topic, FWIW......

In this business, reputation is EVERYTHING; this is true for both the outfitter AND the client!! It takes a lot to build up trust between people, but only a few negative posts to really damage a persons reputation/business. I, for one, would not want to jeopardize my good standing in a community because of a mistake that I didn't address or try to rectify.

I certainly hope that Gerrit gets what is owed to him, and that whomever the individual is that is appearing to be uncooperative realizes that negative reports of ones' actions can (and most likely will) affect them in other aspects of their lives, particularly where the internet is involved.

 

[BRICKBURN]

One final thought on this topic, FWIW......

In this business, reputation is EVERYTHING; this is true for both the outfitter AND the client!! It takes a lot to build up trust between people, but only a few negative posts to really damage a persons reputation/business. I, for one, would not want to jeopardize my good standing in a community because of a mistake that I didn't address or try to rectify.
................

Sadly there are those that do not care at all about their reputation because they do not have a good reputation in the first place.

Some of the crooked guys I have read about here just change there name, hide behind another company, change countries and head out and do it again and again.

Usernames are transitory and not everyone posts and participates like the regulars. If you look at the stats, there are a lot of people who cruise AH and use it as a resource and never say a word.

As Gerrit has shared, he will provide this guys name by PM to anyone interested.

Still hoping you get some recourse Gerrit.

 

[peras]

Unfortunately like in the words of Hemmingway, the only way to know if you can trust someone is by trusting them.

 

[Trap123]

How I long for the days when a mans word and a handshake were solid as oak.
You guys sure know how to make a guy nervous as i am going on my first safari in april and i have no contract and already paid in full for my wife and I(including estimated trophy fees)maybe its foolish but as Jaco said...."its absolute nonsense really"that men cant trust each other.I have some very solid references locally so at least if it goes bad I can exact some retribution on someone.Actually I feel very comfortable with this and if it works out without all the legal mumbo jumbo so much the better.At least I will know there are still honest men out there.

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

You guys sure know how to make a guy nervous as i am going on my first safari in april and i have no contract and already paid in full for my wife and I

Trap

If you have done your homework correctly and followed up on good referances i dont see that you need to worry!!!
BTW i feel there are not too many con men out there, yes you will find the old smelly potato in the bag but they are in lesser numbers i believe!!

Relax and look forward to your hunt!!
All the best

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

I think i might just add, i have notified the client via email that i was going to name him if he does not respond to my mails by Friday!!

So lets see what happens, if there is no response from his side i will post his name as well as some pictures of him!!
I think i have been patient enough and i decided to make him known to the comunity to protect all of our members in all aspects of bussines with this man!!

So lets see what happens before Friday

All the best

 

[BRICKBURN]

Fair warning!

 

[Big5]

I think i have been patient enough and i decided to make him known to the comunity to protect all of our members in all aspects of bussines with this man!!

I think you've been more than patient and used much restraint.

Fair warning!

+1