outfitter pricing?????

[tap]

I have a major question for you outfitters and would like some serious answers. as you read this please be aware that i am fully aware of concession fees for hunters vs non hunters and the requirements of shipping trophies under the hunters names etc.

here is my question.
if you were to plan a mozambique buffalo hunt you would book a ten day hunt. the cost would be around $14,000. if you wanted a second buffalo simply pay the $3,000 fee and its yours. (2nd must be requested in advance because of quota) next your wife wants to go along. shes charged about $200.00 per day for a total of $2,000.00 for her to watch. total for the safari for the two buffalo and your wife as an observer is about $19,000. all trophies are tagged under one name and shipped in one box safari over. now what happens when ur in the bush and your wife decides hey would it be so bad if i pull the trigger? well now her fee just jumped from $2,000 as an observer to $14,000 for a second 10 day safari minus the worthless discount of $50/day for the 2x1 discount. total for your hunt is now $28,000! a $9,000 price hike plus the upidy up outfitters incist on 2 separate crates instead of tagging them under one hunters name and now your shipping doubles. i seriously doubt you guys incur $9,000 of additional fees once this observer turns into a hunter so why the scam?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Africa at work!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Potentially the outfitter is losing a complete safari by just giving the second buff, especially on a good area it will work this way.

It is pretty much that simple.

My best always

 

[tap]

i have a hard time seeing it that way. most outfitters dont hit 100% quota hence end of the year bargains. if they were always 100% booked then i agree but in my case just cuz i have the money doesnt mean i forget how hard it is to make it and i repect anyone who helps me out. hence im a loyal client as long as someone is truly looking out for me. i spent $115,000 last year on safari and am not returning to any of my guides except for one. ive found that if a guide truly enjoys hunting then price gouging takes second place to enjoying a good hunt. when i hunt i prefer to hunt with guys who love hunting and have found the more guys charge the less they like to hunt and hence a lesser experience. the guys who love to hunt traet you as if they genuinely care and the entire hunt experiences shines through. these guys pay attention to the small details. not wining and dining, heck i could care less if i slept on the ground. i wanna experience a REAL hunting experience with a guy who shares a common intrest and at the same time i want to build a friendship. maybe im off but the guides charging exuberent fees are just not the guys for me

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

You are making a good point, however area dictates price to a large extent the better the area size an number ussually the higher it would be, keep in mind guys will try to sell their quota up untill the last possible moment before they just go... A well I'm going to be stuck with quota anyway so I might as well just take 30% of my quota in the begining of the season and drop my price by 40% I think it would just be silly to do that.

Any person in buisiness wants the most he cam get within reason for his product thats normal, tying it into hunting ethic and skill or experience is a bit of a harsh call I'd say.

Thats why the market has a wide range of pricing to suit the vafious consumers needs is it not.

However do not be mistaken there are good reasons why there are some Buff hunts for $8000-00 and some for $15000 they are most definitly not the same.

Just my thoughts on this as well.
My very best always.

 

[tap]

i would agree on pricing. there are buff hunts for $38,000 that im seriously thinking about and that is the only price. however the buff and experience are worth it. however a $14,000 buff hunt is your average outfitter and for these guys not to offer an observer a buff on discount isnt the wiser move imho. zambia buff sure, no discounts are expected but in lesser areas and average areas why cant you pay less for more hunting and expect to shoot smaller buffalo in return for more hunting time?

 

[Bobpuckett]

Tap I have to agree with you I've talked to a lot of Outfitters in RSA that will gladly let your wife come along as an observer and if she wants to pull the trigger on one of your animals no additional fee or if she wants to shoot one on her own then for that day she is the hunter and you become the Observer seems to easy to me.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Guys we need to remember that outfitters are sitting on GOVERMENT areas this is not the US or Canada bob private ownership on game is a completly different story, I know that in Zim many outfitters do not or can not put two buff on a TR2 in some cases they have to cook the books to do this which is never a good idea, everything that all understands about Africa is about a drop in the bucket of the red tape you need to deal with as an outfitter,

I think on sells your product for what it is worth, mostly we undersell our product especially those of us with something good.

As mentioned maybe the outfitter still believes that he can still sell his quota and I truly believe that none of us should be to harsh on him for that. After all he is also working for his money and have staff and a daughter in college.
By all means find a different outfitter, if the mentioned on is not willing at this point in time, I for one on a free roaming area would hold out as long as possible before I drop rates by 40%.
Thats exactly the reason why one can pick up deals sometime but I would surely bust my butt first to see if I can make all work between my old clients/agents.

 

[JohnH]

First, it is up to the individual outfitter and his client to discuss, preferably up front.
It would be very easy for the client to request 2 animals and intend for the partner or spouse to shoot the other. Is this fair on the outfitter?
Jaco brings up some good points.
Mozambique is mentioned. Before a client may hunt he/she needs their own hunting licence, and this must be arranged prior to pulling the trigger. Anything else is not legal and the outfitter carries the can while the client might have the rifle and trophy confiscated and goes home.
And do not believe that a secret can be kept. If you have spent time in Africa you will know that even though you might believe you are miles from anywhere, you gave gov and safari staff that can talk, and there is more than a good chance that some indigenous herb/honey gatherer wandering around will see what happened.
i do not have a problem with Taps idea, and in our SA hunting areas we often let the wife or kids especially have a poke at something without the fees being raised and where it is legal.

 

[Nyatiboss]

Hi

The highly reputable outfit I hunt with in Mozambique are very strict regarding anyone hunting ( pulling trigger ) without a Gov hunting license pre issued to that specific person.

Their 10 day hunts are US$12,000 for 2012 and trophy fees US$3,000 per Buff.

I agree that, why should a successful and, normally, fully booked outfitter sell a second Buffalo for less than the total hunt cost. The principal hunter may, at the outfitter's discretion, be offered more animals , if available before, or during the hunt.

The problem , which could a BIG problem to the outfitter, would occur if there was an incident, or accident , where the unlicensed hunter was involved.

This could result in the PH losing his license and the outfitter his concession in extreme cases.

As all hunts are accompanied by a Gov Game Scout , there is no room to hide should a tragedy occur.

I have hunted Buffalo and all dangerous game , bar Rhino, for 30 years and yet am not allowed, officially, to carry a rifle in the bush, without a hunting license and a hunt booked, for these reasons.

Tanzania is good for booking 2 or even 3 Buff on a hunt, but the same rules should apply, although they are sometimes, wrongly, relaxed.

I hope that helps.........

All best

Tony

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Lost posts...

Hi Jaco

Zimbabwe currently has no law as to the amount of animals on a TR2. Nor a limit as to how many animals a hunter can shoot or export, as long as it is within the quota and if a CITES animal, then the necessary CITES tags.

Regards

Martin

tap,

Good post. Every so often a post like yours pops up on different hunting forums. We have all experienced or observed the 'kiss arse, higher tip, stupid rich client' behaviour that exists. The problem is this 'product' in the 'Industry' doesn't exist without demand, which says a lot about us and our fellow hunters/consumers.

I see two different posts here from you. The 'why pay extra for what exists' query, which has been answered, and the 'lets pay for real hunting' post.

I would be interested to find out how you book your hunts. Are they based on the species you want ? through a hunting organisation at auction ? through an outfitter ? or do you personally research and select your PH and his organisation. I dislike third partys in any process and prefer to do things myself to get what I want.

Depending on species, $113,000 is not a small sum of money to spend and with that bankroll I'm sure you can find what you want. AS you have specific needs and expectations you will have to be far more specific with your booking and research. Do not just accept what is offered.

Cheers

well firstly there are times i like to take really big animals. for example i want a 100 lb elephant a 45" buff and a 17" leopard. for these animals i know i would pay dearly. however, once my trophy has been found i still desire to hunt. "just hunting" is what gets expensive. im addicted like nothing else. however mu ambitions are for me and my family. i want them all to enjoy the hobbies i hold closest to my heart. i want my family exposed to real hunting and i want them to experience the excitement of a real ph who is a passionate hunter. passion vs business men are two separate men. my problem now is that i still want to hunt but i want to do it a lot, with the right people and for the right price. if i was to allow gouging i would be limited to one hunt per year. however if i found someone who worked with me that person would get more than just a one time hunt but most all of my business and i would get to hunt an awful lot during every year. both would benefit tremendously from the relationship. in addition word of mouth spreads and the outfitter who appears to be there to hrlp the less fortunate alwys ensures that those once in a lifetime safaris are sent their way. i just cant understand why more ph's dont work this way and it frustrates me. its funny that martin peters has popped up on here. im suppose to talk with him in vegas in a couple of weeks and despite being a zim outfitter im hoping he may be my next outfitter. im just really tired of hunting with businessmen. whats the difference? business men are more conerned with food. wine, fine dining, and pampering. hunters throw in a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and hit the hills for two days and decide to worry about food when the client is near passing out from lack of food. this is hunting and this is what a real hunter wants. lets just say ive experienced an awful lot and that their is a direct correlation on the extrem profit conscious and the true hunters. i once had a ph who was a hunter and he had all my business. profits became king of all and i now find myself searching for another ph. i used this one ph to find me true trophies and again to find me great hunting opportunity. once the line between giant trophies and hunting opportunity was no longer visible and both cost the same is when i decided i was done hunting with him. does that help explain what my original post is about. its about helping someone afford a better experience because you want to do a good thing whereas in return you are setting yourself up for better business. yes its a gamble but one with more potential fruit than one that says this is my price and that is all.

passion vs business men are two separate men.

Spot on.

Tap you do have a hunters passion I wish you luck, if ever my pockets get deap enough I to would travel the world hunting. I would model my hunting after Watson T. Yoshimoto Oh to hunt every huntable big game animal in the world what a dream.

Martin if you be so kind as to share your thought on the fact why certain outfitters in Matetsi as well as others wish not to do this? It makes absolute sense to me that you would want to sell what you can while you can, Thats just buisiness.Would like your honest thought on this.

My best always( see you in Reno )

Heated now! I am a full time ph/outfitter, hunting is my passion, but it's also my job/livelyhood. Balance between profit and expendetures are very important. What we need to understand is that we as guides/outfitters handle lifelong dreams for the most part, people come to me at the booth and entrust me with something they have dreamed about for 35-50 years in some cases, this is always a great and exciting prospect for me as it should be to all of us that are serious about what we do.

There is no one thing greater than seeing a clients eyes well up after finaly realizing his dream of doing a buff or even a kudu hunt.

However we live in a reality while our clients are living their dream, from my side the money/profit pays a morgage medical insurance and so on, maybe a coast vacation for my family one every two years. As an outfitter you are also a buisiness owner, and I feel you are entitled to run a succsesfull one, if ones prices are not competative you simply just wont sell hunts its that simple.

No one and by that I believe no one knows better than I how hard just passion can nip you in the butt I was chewed up and spat out because of having just passion for hunting and wanting to do all the great things with my clients without buisiness sense.

Our clients want as much as they can for as little as possible, for the most part this is true of all consumers.

As outfitter we want the best within reason for our product, meaning we need to be competative, I for one dont think the Mozie guy is a shark, he wants what all of us want wether we like to acknowledge this or not.

I am sure that with a little searching you'll find exactly what you want.

My best always.

Only thing is, the buffalo was already bought by the husband so it wouldn't be eligible for a 2nd safari anyway...

T, My friend -- (PH School 101) These are businesses you are contracting to do work for you not friendships.

The outfitters have to cater to the majority. You are in the minority.
Some don't do "loss leaders" and some see you as a short term cash cow. (Mr. Moz.)
They don't trust that you are coming back. They don't know you.

You, as a market are a small one.


Next year you'll have to just come along with me somewhere close to home (Unless you want an assistant PH along to keep you straight) and just have some fun out hunting.

We're heading out tomorrow to reduce the Coyote population and you are welcome! No day rate or trophy fee and little long haired T can join in too.

I also dont see the big deal about allowing an abserver to shoot the odd animal - if it is pre-arranged. Showing up and expecting it seems more like trying to cheap out on a 2x1 hunt. On my hunt last June I asked in advance if my wife could pay observer rate most days and only pay hunter rate for a day or 2 to collect the couple animals she wanted. My PH Chris Troskie generously said dont worry about it she can hunt at observer rates. There were no last minute suprises and things went well. Thank you Chris.

The one thing that really stuck out to me on this was in your second post Tap. I dont want to start anything here but my perspective is that you get to go on $115,000 worth of guided hunts per year. Im sure you work hard for your money but here is some perspective for you. I work a full time job 10hrs+ per day, I am on call at night and spend many nights working as well (after working a full 10hr+ day) I also work many of my days off and have several side businesses on the go so that I can not only afford to pay the bills but also have enough left over for both Christine and myself to chase our dreams. 1 hunt per year is all I can afford after working my butt off night and day. When I hear someone whining that they dont get enough hunting for their $115,000 per year, sympathy is not the emotion it envokes!!!

Diamond, The spending budget aside. You got treated well by Chris and he obviously looks to the future and wants good references for his business.
T found someone who did not operate with the same model in mind.

Tell that boss of your to give you a raise or at least take you along to hunt next time!
By the way, is he willing to post that Cheetah video??

Hey Brick

Sorry for the rant that just struck a nerve I guess LOL

I had forgotten about his Cheetah video. I will have to ask him to copy it for me again.

As for him taking me hunting... Well since his wife wants a new house and they have been unable to sell their property for the last 2 years she TOLD him that she NEEDED a new house so he is tearing half of his house down this spring and building a new half and then doing the same on the other half next year!!! So no hunting trips for him! He just finished paying his morgage off last year too. Poor guy, so much for retirement. In his words "its still cheaper than a divorce". I think he should run the math both ways anyway!!! LOL

All outfitters I know have no problem at letting an observer shoot the odd impala, or blesbok, without any additional cost.

A buffalo, or any major (expensive) animal, that s another story !

Agreed 100% baydog, also TAP try the outfitters a week or so after Reno you will get what you want for sure.!

If he would let you shoot the second buff, and it was on license/quota available, and the observer(male or Female) asked if they could instead, I would be inclined to, HOWEVER here are some issues to address. This person is potentially not practiced at shooting. The PH did not have them shoot when they arrived. Having a potentially inexperienced shot, take the shot could be risky for all involved.

While Buffalo quota may be left at the end of the season, that means a few big bulls walk, which just leaves more Bulls for the next year. If you are trying to keep a concession for the long term, having more big bulls is better. All outfitters are trying to make the most money they can, while still providing the best hunting, service, experience they can. Prices keep climbing it seems, most due to government increasing their fees, but the last few years have been pretty flat due to the economy, from my perspective.

In conclusion, I think being a returning client would give you the best chance to have something like this occur. With no preplanning and not sure if you plan to return, I would think it would be in the best interest of the outfitter to not allow the taking of the buffalo, maybe PG at no increased rate from observer. I would not pay the increase from observer to hunter, for the entire duration for the privilege to take a buffalo.

Jaco is 100% right, for these guys (outfitters/PH's) it is business. They will surely make a lot of freindships along the way, but, passion for the hunt and wild critters aside, it is ultimately their livelyhood. Anyone who owns a business wants to provide the best service out there, in essence to be THE BEST, at what he/she does, and giving stuff away (which most of us business owners do from time to time) doesn't help the checkbook. Then again, only time I give concrete away is on a big ticket project, in which I know I will get more work from the contractor.

If the client and Outfitter did not really hit it off, so to speak, and things were tense, I could see things going the way they did. Just my two cents, cause we are really only getting one side of the story here. Maybe the outfitter didn't care, or maybe he already knew he had lost your return business when the question for your wife to shoot the Buff arose.