Ok question for PH ,outfitters and who ever would like to comment

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by billc, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Guys this is a question that seems to have no easy answer.I dont care about the sci score and did not say I am just worried about inches.I may stalk a kudu get there and never ask how big and shoot just because I like the way it looks.The kudu I took with jacques we did not get to get a good look at as he tried to run out the back door as we waited.He looked good running up the hill so I took him.That was all about the hunt and how it worked out.I could not be happier with that kudu.I am trying to figure out what is fair of you to ask your ph as to guessing size.I have sizes in my mind and would like to hunt that quality of animal but i will still be hunting.My example of a 58" kudu that ends up being 53" is a 5" difference is that ok in most people eyes.Everyone may have there own ideas on this and that is what I am trying to find out.
  2. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    5 inches is too much 1 maybe be 2" on a large horned animal like a Kudu I might be able to understand. Point is... every well experienced PH will never call a 58" if his client is looking for something 58" and above for me to call it I would rather wait until I get something I think is 59" + I have to be on the safe side as a guide, A Kudu is a very tricky thing to judge at distance, allot of guys look for curl but apart from that the actuall horn mass and hight play just as an important role.

    in short 5 " below the estimated length on the hoof would be a bit too much, but we all make mistakes.

    My best always.
  3. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

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    billc,

    You are right I don't think it is a easy question to answer, but, I think you answered it already. I cannot speak for others, but if I were told 58 inch Kudu and it turned out to be 54 inch, if I enjoyed the hunt I don't feel I would be upset. I have some books here, and there are several writers at the time that though 50 inch was a good goal for Kudu...I have never hunted Kudu, and to be honest they lower on my list than others, but if I already had a 54 incher and ended up with his twin that would be just fine with me.
  4. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Well jaco you make some good points.I am hoping to hear some other PH take on this.My only thought about your system on sliding scale is.If a hunter should not worry about inches when hunting why should he pay more for a bigger bull over a certain inch.You are basing your cost on the inch not age.So some big old bull who may have been 2800 last year is now 2100 because he rubbed an inch or 2 of his horns.The sliding score judges the animal by the inch but a hunter wanting a certain inch bull is asking to much of the PH.How do you handle this at your place jaco.You have any guy just wants a kudu.You come on a good bull you think he is like 53" so would be a 2100.00 bull he shoots it and you measure it and find out he is 55" now a 2800.00 bull.The hunter only figure on spending 2100.00 but has a 2800.00 bull on the ground.You eat that extra charge.
  5. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Billc very true although I am responsible for making the call and I pick the trophy according to its age if it ends up being longer than 54" and you wanted that why not. If my hunter states that he wants a $2100 thats what he gets 54"+ bulls I only book on a 10 day + safari.

    If I make the call and it's above 54" I am responsible period. I have never been one to shunt responsibility I do not hold my clients accountable for that, however I do not guarantee any 54"+ upon booking either but giving your self 10 days on 40 000 + acres (one property) definitly gives you a shot or a chance at one.

    I do not charge per inch, I only charge for 1/4 inch if we do the math, its very simple 53 7/8" = $2100 and 54"+ $2800 thats it. The more good Kudu you take the more you realize how valuable they are and how rare they are becoming hence the price.

    If my client decides to take a 54"+ and I am able to put him in that position why is it a bad thing to eat the extra money?? I am being rewarded for good management....... Some other guys would buy it the week before and drop it in a 500 acre pen................... We don't. Their prices are based on What they bought it for, mine is based on good management.,and availability Hunting a well managed area in Zimbabwe for Buffalo is allot more than what it is in the crappy ones.

    To me it makes 100% sense

    My best always.
  6. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

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    Hi Jaco, I'm impressed that you have that large a single property in SA! :) That's very special, but isn't it a little unusual too? I don't know of that many properties that size any more....not that I'm very learned on that subject at all - just go on what I hear! Ja I'm sure one wily old bull could hide successfully for a year or two unless there's a huge amount of kudu on the property! What is your percentage off take of your population annually? We always worked on 4% as a sustainable quota on farms here! What do you estimate your population at and how many do you take off a year?
    I always had a problem when hunting! If I had seen a 55" er on the property I always felt I was cheating the client if I didn't find it! made for long days!!! Have a good one friend!
  7. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Ole Bally, we are extremly fortunate to hunt such an area yes, we do have an extremely good Kudu population with Brilliant browsing capacity, we are located in the Waterberg mountain range in Limpopo........ in the early 2000's the Centre for Wildlife management (Tukies) University of Pretoria, did research on the Kudu population on Kwalata as part of an "Masters" And we where provided with management plan which has worked extremely well for us.

    We take 7 - 10 bulls a season this could be seen as 10 % of the total population or 4% on a reproductive %age of 25% on the total population, when we hit 10 we hunt an adjacent property of 75 000 acres........ (one poperty) By only focusing on 25 - 30 hunters a season we keep the numbers in tact and by not constantly putting hunting pressure on one area. I always tell the guys the harder they work the better the chance last year I did a calculation and we where doing on average 6 mi. a day for all 55" bulls and passing many, we do everything exclusivly on foot, if it jumps out and stands in front of the car, I keep driving until it runs away and then go after it...... I am a bit of a slave driver but most of our clients love the experience.

    My best always.
  8. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Without a doubt.


    With a Kudu that is very harsh.
  9. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Jaco sounds like you make for a fun hunt and dont mind working for the trophy.Dont thinking walking ever hurt anyone when hunting and makes for some fun.So how many kudu would be on your place at the start of the season.Then of those how many bulls would be over that 55" mark.Have you ever taken one of those amazing 60" bulls of your ranch or the other you use.
  10. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I am very happy that I don't hunt inches:)
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Billc, Our Kudu population is naturally occuring we do not drop off big bulls it just would not work on the size of land... not putting other guys down it just does not work for us, due to the obvious factors involved, the last 60 we took was two years ago it was 62,5" I saw 2 different bulls during the rut last season that I would believe would make it but hunted the whole season without seeing them again, one was a still a bit young and it would be a shame to shoot him within the next 2 - 3 seasons, the other could possibly, if found..... be on the cards all depends on what he looks like now.

    It is impossible for me ti give you a figure of the number of Kudu bulls above 55 the area is extremely mountainous and it is just not possible to make such a statement, there is over 200Km of road on Kwalata but huge areas with no access except on foot this makes it virtually impossible, I will say that connecting with a 55" + on a 10 day safari is a distinct possibility and as good if not better or at least equal than anywhere else regarded as a excellent kudu area... as far a naturally occuring Kudu population is concerned.

    It is hard hunting but incredibly rewarding.
    My very best always.
  12. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Ole Bally Terribly sorry not 10 % as stated but....... 1 - 1.5% of the total population which stands at an educated estimate of around 700 - 750 head of kudu or we work on a reproductive rate of 25% per anum on the toal head count and of that we take 4% - 5% as a quota. (which leaves us with 7 - 10 Kudu bulls per season. Very gentle and relaxed and we have seen that it works extremely well.

    It could very easily be over utilized and then we would have nothing, and coming back from that is incredibly hard.

    My very best always.
  13. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Hunting for inches, ruins hunts. Puts a lot of stress on everyone. I would discuss with the outfitter, especially if you are hunting as a group to wave the inch requirement. If you are really looking for a big kudu, you are going to have to be picky. Look for mass, curls, length....if if looks huge take it, it's a lot more fun to hunt this way. Study looking at good kudu pictures too before you go over there too.

    Hunting for inches can put a lof of pressure on PH, which can ruin too. Some PH's are good judges of inches...others not so much. I have seen people be off by 8 inches on kudu. Pictures don't always do a animal justice too. But when you see them in person, that's a whole different story.
  14. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    One of the first things I learned when guiding Stone Sheep was to "keep an inch in your pocket". It saves alot of headaches since most of the time you will be within an inch but every once in awhile you get fooled, but no where to the degree of 4-5". I am sure Kudu are the same to those who judge them day in and day out.
  15. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    With the exception of a dwarf bodied animal if this is happening, you are not getting what you payed for.
  16. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    75000 acres (118 square miles) with the neighbor at 40000 acres (62 square miles)....thats bigger than some states over here....
  17. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    Africa...are there other continents to hunt?
    Oops. Never mind. 115,000 acres is only about a quarter of one of our states.
  18. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

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    Jaco, where were you when I was PH'ing?...Operators like you are few and far between! Sounds like you have the perfect attitude and management plan! 700 Bulls to choose from must make yr operation fairly unique in SA...or anywhere else for that matter! The only other I can think of would be Lemco here in Zim, but that's nearly 750 000 acres - fenced! I hunted a property on the Limpopo in the early 90's that also had a large number of Kudu. To the point where we could ask the client to choose the horn shape for the wall space available and then give him a bull 52+ !! Sadly those places are now history :( when you tell the young hunters of places like that they give you a 'skeef' look! Now I can tell them to visit you!
  19. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Ole Bally no, no no our management plan works on a population of 700-750 Kudu, we felt that if we worked on 4% of the total population it would be hard on them hence the management plan we employed as above, as I say it has worked very well over the last decade, and we try to keep it to that... If we had 700 bulls I would go ballistic :)

    It is truly a blessing to hunt where we do and we hope that we will for many years to come,........Are you sure you were not hunting Kwalata? research done in the 90's put the area as one of the highest populated kudu areas in S.A.....

    My best always
  20. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

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    Jaco, You are blessed indeed! The property is called Nottingham and is on the north side of the river right across the river from Mapungubwe! It is an unfenced property...in fact, the whole of the bottom of zim is unfenced right from Tuli circle to crooks corner. It's a big game corridor connecting Bots to Moz with the Kruger in between! Nottinghams attraction was a lot of water and massive orange orchards! They have +/- 1 mill citrus trees and it was well managed before the take overs! I worked that whole area for some 10 years and had a lot of fun in it! that area was only settled in the 60's! It had been deemed by Govt to be uninhabitable by humans! It really is semi desert for the most part....but very conducive to growing citrus it appears! They told old man Knott that if he wanted to settle there, he had to get 9 other farmers willing to settle the area with him! It was uninhabited before then! They were a hard bunch of men!
    Sheesh, with things going the way they are...have you a 'strategic' partner in mind if you get my meaning?! They'd love to get their hands on something successful to mess up! It's an ugly reality these days! Few people in Zim are building anything with a view for the future now...and that's so sad!

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