Ok question for PH ,outfitters and who ever would like to comment

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by billc, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    285
    Location:
    Pa.
    My Photos:
    56
    Hunted:
    united states canada mexico south africa
    I am trying to planned the next trip over to africa.Have a few friends wanting to go and could answer most of there question.Looks like we will hunt a few areas this trip with more then one outfitter.I was asked by one guy who was talking to one outfitter on how this would be handle.The place he is looking at goes 55" under one price and then more for bigger.Ok so lets say your ph tells you ok that one is 54" and you shoot it.Only to find out it is 57" and cost more.What gets done in that case.Now it also got me thinking in my case I am looking to hunt different animals then I have already taken.But there could be some shoot again if bigger then i already taken or if I can take with my bow.So say I have a 54" kudu now looking for something around 58 to take another.Say I shoot one that I am told is 58" and it goes 54".How is a fair way to handle that.I am not going to complain over a inch or two but what is a fair standard there.I am not worried about a final sci score but just a fair way to better what i have done already with out being unreasonable.With me and my son hunting trips can add up fast so i need to do things right as we fill are list out.Thanks Billc
     
  2. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,629
    Likes Received:
    450
    My Photos:
    396
    Member of:
    KZN Hunters Assoc
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, USA, Mexico
    Wonder if it will be zero tolerance, either way? Look forward to the responses.
     
  3. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    22
    My Photos:
    134
    Member of:
    S.C.I. International. Rowland Ward. Sporting shooters Association of Australia. Australian Deer Association.
    Hunted:
    Aus. N.Z & Zim.
    Hi Bill.

    Firstly, the very best of hunting luck to you and your group for this hunt.

    On the topic of your question, I would say that if you have relayed your message/requirements and intentions to the outfitter you are booking with in the manner which you have here with us then i would say that the responsibility for what the Trophy actually is must rest with the P.h who is making the initial assesment.

    If you have instructed you are after a specific structure of Trophy and the Outifitt has a specific structure of price per Trophy size I cannot understand how an outfitt could expect a non-resident hunter to be familiar enough with guestimating Trophy size and accept responsibility.

    A smart P.H will almost allways under-estimate rather than over-estimate.
    This may cause you some greif in the scenario where you may fall into the next price bracket.

    I know this occurs often in N.Z where on the game ranches hunted there is a big price jump between scoring catagories of Red Stag.
    i also know that in this case if the guide makes the mistake and the animal scores more than the feild assesment then the outfitter wears it.

    Personally I greatly dislike the "price per inch" or "price-scale" scenario in hunting, but if the outfitter insists on running his operation in that manner then he should also accept responsibility for those "marginal" calls.

    Varying price scales for sizes of Trophies cheapens the hunt down to inches and dollars.
    That is only my opinion !
     
  4. Wolverine67

    Wolverine67 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    21
    Member of:
    SCI, SHAC, RW Guild
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Poland, South Africa
    There is one obvious advantage in a sliding scale price system. It could save the biggest males and get them the chance to breed maybe a couple of years extra. Thats allways good for the game stock/population. Its better to take out the biggest ones after they are to old for breeding.
     
  5. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    285
    Location:
    Pa.
    My Photos:
    56
    Hunted:
    united states canada mexico south africa
    I am not fan of the sliding price scale by size either.My question is not really about that.It is more based on how much either way bigger or smaller horn size is fair.I am not only talking about kudu it could be impala,nyala any animal in south africa.If I set my goal as 28" on nyala and shoot a 27" I could deal with it but if it was 26" I would not be as happy.It is a double edge sword for outfitters though.Say you want a 58" kudu he gets you a 59 1/2 after telling you that is 58".Everyone thinks he is the PH alive.But let it be 55" and then you are not as happy.I am looking for what is fair for both.I realize as the hunter I pull the trigger but in africa in it based alot on the ph.The first hunt it was easier as i want just a nice kudu and jacques got it done.This time I have different goals on size on some animals so makes it tougher.
     
  6. mudslinger

    mudslinger AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    17
    Member of:
    NRA, RMEF, NAHC. LSBA
    Hunted:
    USA, New Zealand, South Africa
    I too dislike the sliding scale for trophy fees for animals in RSA. Also, if the outfitter has that type of fee, then I would get it in writing what is exactly going to happen if the PH says the animal is so big, but upon killing it the animal is much larger and the PH says that you have to pay the higher trophy fee. Not a good scanario in my book. Most PH's if they are worth their salt will not "big eye" an animal and have you dissapointed when it does not reach the measurement he told you before the shot.

    Good luck on your hunt and keep us in the loop on where you are going and how the hunt goes.
     
  7. ikeda

    ikeda AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    3
    My Photos:
    4
    Member of:
    NRA, TSRA, SCI
    Hunted:
    Namibia (3), Zimbabwe
    "Personally I greatly dislike the "price per inch" or "price-scale" scenario in hunting, but if the outfitter insists on running his operation in that manner then he should also accept responsibility for those "marginal" calls."

    "Varying price scales for sizes of Trophies cheapens the hunt down to inches and dollars."

    I could not agree more. In fact I will do anything possible to avoid hunting with someone who prices this way.

    As for the PH getting it wrong....well we are all human and if you are not hunting with someone who prices this way then it is not an issue. Just tell your PH I only want one bigger than the one I already have and trust that he knows his business. Ultimately it is your decision on if you pull the trigger.
     
  8. CT Safaris

    CT Safaris AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    38
    My Photos:
    14
    Member of:
    SCI, DSC, PHASA, DWWC
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe Mozambique, USA
    Bill, you are asking some valid questions...

    This is one of the risks of having a sliding scale in your pricelist based on trophy size. The client cannot be expected to accurately assess the trophy size of animals that he is not familiar with and it is the PH's responsibility to do this (this is what he gets paid for after all). So in my opinion - if you make it clear to your PH that you do not want to hunt the more expensive kudu and he lets you shoot a bigger (more expensive) one this should be the PH and Outfitter's problem. However; a fair resolution to such an issue would depend on what the Outfitter's contract and your agreement with him determines... Best you ask these questions to the Outfitter whom you'll be hunting with and iron this out before you book as different Outfitters will have different takes on this. I don't charge TF's based on size so fortunately I've never had to deal with this.

    As for your second question - if you've made it clear to your PH that you are only interested in upgrading (shoot something significantly bigger than what you already have) and your PH agrees to this it is his responsibility to find you what you want and only let you shoot at what you want. So should he tell you to shoot a kudu that he estimates to be 58" and it turns out to be the same as what you already have (54") he needs to be held accountable for that. If however the kudu turns out to be 56 or 57" my thinking is that he has done his job in terms of significantly upgrading your trophy.

    A note of caution though...If you pressure your PH too much in terms of size requirements he may end up being too cautious and not let you shoot at anythying - in the process letting good opportunities at good trophies go to waste... My experience has been that many of the bigger trophies that were successfully hunted with me were shot by clients who had no trophy expectations other than wanting a good representative.
     
  9. jepetto62

    jepetto62 AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    24
    Member of:
    la diana
    Hunted:
    Switzerland, France, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Mauritius,Namibia, SA, Zimbabwe, Canada, New Foundland, Yukon, BC, Alaska, Argentina
    I agree, with all of you.
    The sliding scale is a pain. I hunt for the fun of stalking, the emotions and ultimately for the trophy.
    As probably most of you, while I value more a great stalk/hunt than the trophy size, the re is always in my mind the little hope to hit on a "monster". One of you mentioned red deer, this is one typical example where going from a gold medal to a top ten can easily double or triple your trophy fee... and that is frustrating. And thank God, red deer are very easy to evaluate.
    My experience, the seldom times I hunted under such principle is that the PH does assume his mistakes, or warn you he is not 100% sure and let you make the choice. Then it is your call.
     
  10. jepetto62

    jepetto62 AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    24
    Member of:
    la diana
    Hunted:
    Switzerland, France, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Mauritius,Namibia, SA, Zimbabwe, Canada, New Foundland, Yukon, BC, Alaska, Argentina
    True, this is actually what happened in some regions of Germany, where they put very high trophy size requirements (in order at first to let the population mature to shootable trophy size). After a decade, all the great gene carrier had been shot, leaving poorer quality male to reproduce... Not good!
     
  11. teenhunter

    teenhunter AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2012
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    4
    Member of:
    diana
    Hunted:
    namibia,southafrica,zimbabwe,sweden,france,mauritus,switzerland
    hope you will get your "58" kudu:eek:
     
  12. Frederik

    Frederik AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    10
    My Photos:
    100
    Member of:
    BASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique and Sweden
    There is no easy answer to it you cannot expect a ph to be 100% correct on estimating an animal there are too many factors too consider. The easiest way is to hunt with someone without a sliding scale or ask the outfitter to get rid of the sliding scale for your hunt if you are going to be a group of hunters I'm sure they could absorb the cost on the whole hunt. Economy is down and if the outfitter don't want to budge move to the next one.
     
  13. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    990
    Likes Received:
    285
    Location:
    Pa.
    My Photos:
    56
    Hunted:
    united states canada mexico south africa
    What i am looking for is more the answer what most would say is near enough on the judging.There is no way i would hold the Ph to judge it spot on.But say he thinks 58" and it ends up being 53".Is that near enough for most or should one hope to be closer on size then that.The sliding scale has nothing to do with that.I realize kudu can be one of the harder ones to judge so maybe impala would be another.Say you have one around 21" and looking for 24" or bigger and shoot a 22" yes it is bigger but the ph said he would be more like 24 or 25".Is that close enough for most.Also no one said anything about what they would do if there client is not happy.Would you offer a discount on that animal taken or have the hunter take another animal.
     
  14. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,629
    Likes Received:
    450
    My Photos:
    396
    Member of:
    KZN Hunters Assoc
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, USA, Mexico
    Bill, in PH school the method of scoring my "guesses" on horn estimations were set out with scores of 2,1,0. Depending in accuracy.
    Exact or within 1 inch up or down; 2 points.
    Within 1.5 inches up or down; 1 point.
    2 inches or more up or down; zero points.

    If memory serves 80% grade expected.
    So, there is room for error.

    I would expect that most PH's will judge an Impala incredibly well. By that I mean within 1.5 inches. Lots of them are hunted, judged and are simple horned.


    On anything else I can not help you at all.
     
  15. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    56
    My Photos:
    29
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, England, South Africa
    I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.
    A scaling price system only leads to save the bigger trophies for the hunters with the most money.
    If someone wants to avoid some males getting shot so they can breed to pass on their good genes, then it is much better that they are totally put off the shooting list.
    Just like they do in parts of Norway and Sweden when it comes to moose.

    The size of a trophy is not important to me, but I would hate that if I hunted kudu and saw a great looking kudu, but had to walk away from it because it would be to expensive for me to shoot.
     
  16. Wolverine67

    Wolverine67 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    541
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    21
    Member of:
    SCI, SHAC, RW Guild
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Poland, South Africa
    Yes, thats true. But a sliding scale could be more than one thing. It really depends where the scale starts. In the offer from Koedoeberg, which I jumped on. lol ...
    There was offered a 47 inch kudu for 900 $ and thereafter 100 $ per inch. That mean I can shoot a 60 incher for 2200 $ if I was lucky enough to see one. I consider that to be a more than good offer.
     
  17. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    165
    My Photos:
    93
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Ultimatly the responsibility lies with the PH when making a call, if you would prefer to take a sub 54" make it clear and any well experienced professional hunter will be able to make a secure call.

    On the inches.....Guys spent way to much time fussing over " what excactly if anything except SCI image makes a 24" impala so much better than a 23" or even a good mature well shaped 22". What is the measure or rather criteria of a good trophy, is it a set amount of inches? Or is it a cobination of inches, caracter, shape, mass and overall hunting experience that, makes it so. Go out have a good time any good outfitter will take pride in what he takes with you.

    I fully understand that on a second trip especially after taking an impala and a good Kudu before that one might look for somthing bigger, make it clear and all should be good.

    Some trophies might be better than others inches wise.. but thats hunting, there is simply from a conservation perspective as well as hunting perspective no amount of inches that can substitute a good mature trophy hunted sustainably.
    Kudu sliding scale, must be honest dont see much wrong with it, especially with the plains game market being such a competative one with a ton of donations and guys dropping cheap packages like flies, one unfortunate truth is that most of the time you get what you pay for, I have a sliding scale $2100 and $2800 and thats the only one....... we take some very good Kudu, if compared to the average fully guided Elk hunt, I believe that Kudu are still reasonably priced "in global" terms even at $2800......, even big Eland bulls are as steal, just my spin on it.



    Ultimatly once again the PH carries the responsibility and will make the call, I do believe that pitching up in Africa and having a list of set minimums is most probably not the best course of action, for one I have shot 52,5" Kudu bulls that outmeasure 55"'s on SCI just because they have 2.5 - 3" more mass, something to think about as well as length is not the only factor (in SCI), one thing you do know is that should you take a Rowland Ward entry trophy it will mo of the time be gold medal in SCI.

    As far as course of action...on making a call of 58" and it ending up to be 54"..... is a mistake that the guide made... however I truly do not think that the PH can pay for it and if he does he keeps the trophy end of story, making it an inch or half inch issue... I would say would be a bit harsh.

    My best always.
     
  18. 35bore

    35bore AH Elite

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    23
    My Photos:
    74
    Member of:
    NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, France
    Yeah, I enjoy trophies and inches on the trophies. Sounds like you asking for a little to much for a PH to give you that exact measurement in the field, they can be close but, exact???. The contest me and nkjonas won on this site, we had days to study these animals and guess what, we were wrong....I believe that if a Ph and you are looking through the glass at the same animal, and you both agree "it's a shooter" then enjoy it, if it does not make the grade as far as inches "screw it' your there to hunt man, you get to do what very few have the oppourtunity to do, your in Africa my man. Enjoy your hunt and F@#K the inches, if it's an animal you like, then shoot it.
     
  19. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    3
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe
    35 Bore and Jaco..I agree gents! I would like to make it clear though that on properties that grow their own Kudu - free range born and bred specifically...you're going to have a good time trying to get trophies over 52 inches! It takes a land owner with a lot of vision for the future to let them grow out to 52 and bigger! It also depends on the nutrition available to the animals. On properties that buy in from the auctions, the outfitter knows exactly what that animals size is as that's how he bought them at auction...per inch!
    That said, a good PH will estimate a kudu to within a couple of inches say 1 either way! This experience also comes from historical knowledge of the property! It's not like there's only 50 inchers this year and next there's a half dozen 60 inchers all of a sudden! If the outfitter is going to charge per inch, then the onus is on his PH to step up and know each Kudu personally! To not do it that way would be a little dishonest in my book!
    Coming back to Africa for a bigger trophy should be a leisurely safari and more about enjoying the hunt than the argument of the call! When you see the BIG one you'll know him!
     
  20. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,697
    Likes Received:
    165
    My Photos:
    93
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    ole Bally, very true, I agree 100% We however do have a sliding scale and I do not know every Kudu on the 33 000 acres plus area, I just don't feel it is unfair to charge more for that great bull.... Espcially when I see them on a trail cam and do not see them for another 2 - 3 years, in one instance we were hunting a bull that we though had died somewhere in a valley due to the fact that we use to see him regularly and he just dissapeared, I eventually ended up taking him last year...... 6 years later and he was allot older lost about 2 inches but an absolute brute!!!!

    all the point you have made are very true.

    My best always.
     

Share This Page