My Winchester .458 WM Finally Arrived

For me, nostalgia has no place when hunting dangerous game, not when it comes to bullet choice. That is merely a game for amateurs. But good luck on those endeavors, and you will always have a professional there to sort out the mess you make. Hopefully no one gets hurt playing that game.

Guys, it seems that there are concerns about compressed loads? Compressed loads are not a bad thing. Fact is, they are more preferable actually. Paneilson, while Varget will work in 458 Win, there are several powders that will do a better job for you. IMR 8208, TAC, XTerminator, AA 2230... will take a 450 #13, 450 North Fork, or other monos to 2250-2300 fps at safe pressures. I ran 75/Varget to 2200 at 55000 and stopped as it would not equal other powders without getting too much pressure with 450s. AA 2230 would hit the 2250-2260 mark at the same pressure.....

Do not be afraid of compressed loads. In a bolt gun the bottom round tends to be pushed in the case (indeed increasing pressures) from recoil of the top two or three grounds fired. A proper powder chosen, and compressed, with lighter crimp solves that issue. Compressed loads are more efficient, and consistent as well. Some of the slower powders you can compress to the point of "Bulging the Case" and never run into a pressure issue. Of course you don't want to bulge the cases, as they won't chamber....... RL 15 in 458 Winchester, you cannot get enough powder under a 450-500 to ever run into any pressure issues, you will bulge the case first. RL 15 varies quite a bit not only Lot to Lot, but even can to can...... Most recent RL 15 that I have here is a waste of time in 458 Win. RL 15 I have had in the past was a number one powder in 458 Win and Lott.......... But it was heavy compressed, and if not careful would indeed bulge the case and not chamber.

In the case of 416 Rem, you can easy run 400s to 2350-2400 fps with RL 15 and IMR 4064 and stay under 61000 PSI......... Most twist rates in 416 are actually too slow to "terminally stabilize" most 400 solids, to fully stabilize even properly designed 400 solids you need 1:12 twist rates in 416. Fortunately it is very simple to drop weight to 350-370 in the slower twist rates at 1:16 and terminally stabilize the bullet for straight line penetration, at least a properly designed solid with 65%-70% meplat for caliber. In ALL cases, the 350-370 proper designed solids will out penetrate, out perform, lesser designs at 400....... Same as with the 450 to 500 comparison in 458 caliber..............

Not so hard to impress elephant, lion, hippo, leopard, but when it comes to ole buff, he ain't impressed much, even with the best of bullets. Many a buff will take a good hit with a decent bullet, run 30-40 yards and pile up stone cold. Every so often however you will run into that one ole buff that will fight you until that last drop of blood leaves him, and that last breath leaves him. He will soak up bullets like a sponge. You hit him hard, you hit him with the very best you got, and you hit him again and again until the problem is solved, and even then you best pay the insurance, cause if he has a drop of blood left, a single breath left, he can and sometimes will fight right to that point.

Regardless of how you choose, good luck in your endeavors.....

Michael

Thank you for the great info Michael! First of all, let me say that when I said Nostalgic, I mean using a 500gr bullet of jacketed lead core construction from a reputable manufacturer. Hornady bullets like Woodleighs, Noslers, Speer, etc, etc, have been used for years with success. I am loading the cartridges to 2100 fps which is well inside the design of all of these bullets. If I do my part and shoot accurately, and use an expanding followed by solids the result will be success. My goal is to kill my buff as quickly and humanely as possible without my PH having to clean up my work, BUT, I will tell my PH I he has my permission and blessing to anchor the buff should I or my equipment fail. The goal is to anchor the buff and not get anybody killed. Now that I have said that, I am listening to suggestions, researching the suggested components I haven't heard of before and having a blast doing so. Please keep the suggestions and comments coming at me, and thank you to all who have.
 
for what it is worth I bought a NIB Win mod 70 in 458wm and had it re-chambered to 458 Lott. It is the same action as the 375 and 416. A bit of work on the ejector and magazine box lengthened the stock to 14.5"s and I took it hunting. You are correct in that the Win stock is very well engineered and does a great job in reducing felt recoil.
 
for what it is worth I bought a NIB Win mod 70 in 458wm and had it re-chambered to 458 Lott. It is the same action as the 375 and 416. A bit of work on the ejector and magazine box lengthened the stock to 14.5"s and I took it hunting. You are correct in that the Win stock is very well engineered and does a great job in reducing felt recoil.
I'm glad you find yours as pleasing as I do mine. How do the Lott rounds fit into the action? Post a pic!
 
No problem the mag box will comfortably hold rounds with a 3.6" OAL. All of the Safari Grades are the same action, unlike the original 458wm that were built on a standard action the new one is built on a long action.
 
For me, nostalgia has no place when hunting dangerous game, not when it comes to bullet choice. That is merely a game for amateurs. But good luck on those endeavors, and you will always have a professional there to sort out the mess you make. Hopefully no one gets hurt playing that game.

this is a very bold and insulting statement. i suggest comments like this be made somewhere else as the AH has no need for childish internet trolls.

your telling us that using Woodleigh bullets or antique firearms such as original English doubles is "merely a game for amateurs". you might want to have a word with @cal pappas or just about any one in the double rifle section of this forum.

-matt
 
this is a very bold and insulting statement. i suggest comments like this be made somewhere else as the AH has no need for childish internet trolls.

your telling us that using Woodleigh bullets or antique firearms such as original English doubles is "merely a game for amateurs". you might want to have a word with @cal pappas or just about any one in the double rifle section of this forum.

-matt

Regardless of what has worked a 100 years or not, it is simply foolish to not comprehend that today we have far better. There are a good many great bullets out there to choose from, there really are no "Bad Bullets", but as hunters we sometimes make bad choices in our bullets. When it comes down to it, its not the cartridge, not the case, not the rifle, "its the bullet that does all the heavy lifting"...... And unfortunately I find all to often, the most overlooked component of any hunt. The bullet choice can most certainly be the deciding factor alone of ones success, or failure. We all have made those mistakes in the past, I have. But not again.

Michael

Matt,

Michael is no troll. The reams of data he has collected and documented dwarfs anyone's that I know of. And it's not just data from the range, it's backed up by numerous dead animals of the dangerous kind. Reread the quote from Michael I put in this reply.

Michael is simply recommending going with the best bullet available. I concur with this advice. I just can't get it through my head with the selection of mono-metals (TSX / CEB) and the truly bonded lead core bullets (A-Frame / NorthFork) we have available today, why anyone would not use one of these. After spending $12K plus for a buff hunt or $40K plus for an ele, plane fare and all the time one puts into this, I just can't see skimping on the price of the bullet. I also can't see why I wouldn't want to maximize success while at the same time minimizing the chance of someone getting hurt or killed when pursuing DG.

Have 300gr Nosler Partitions out of a .375H&H killed Cape Buffalo? Certainly they have, but ask around a bit and I'm sure you'll find plenty of PH's who would prefer you use something else like an A-Frame or North Fork.

That's all that's being said here, no trolling.
 
question on the hood...

have you shot it with only irons and how did you like the hood??
 
matt........ Yes, my statement might very well be considered bold by some, and fact of the matter, I can back it up every word of it should I desire.

I have shot many a buffalo with Woodleigh Softs, and they have done a good job for a conventional soft. Running at velocities not exceeding 2200 fps in 458 caliber. All Woodleighs are not created equal, I have run other Woodleigh softs in other calibers and at 2000-2100 fps they flatten out like a pancake, and penetration comes up very short of desirable, so it pays to know your Woodleigh you might be using. I have shot many a buffalo with 450-500 Swift A Frames as well, and frankly they are a better bullet, and today if using a more conventional soft, then North Fork would get the nod over the Swift. With any other conventional expanding bullet, the more velocity one runs, the less penetration one gets, as you need to look at "Terminal SD"........ However, with the North Fork softs, the more velocity you run, the deeper they penetrate. As the expansion rolls back on the bullet at increased impact velocity.

With Non-Conventional trauma inflicting bullets, such as the CEB Raptors and North Fork Expanding CPS, then all bets are off, there is no upper end of velocity, and one can pitch any concerns of SD out the door, as it no longer has anything to do with terminal penetration of these sort of bullets......

Solids are a completely different animal altogether, and to understand terminal penetration of solids, one must learn the 8 Factors concerning terminal penetration of solids........

As for Cal P, yes, I know Cal, and Yes, I have in fact told him exactly the same thing, more than once....... Cal tends to choose his bullets very simply, just by the way they look........ Terminal Performance has little to do with his choices.......

Matt, I can only assume that you have used the Woodleigh soft in 458 caliber and maybe others for your last buffalo? Would like to see or hear of how well it performed for you........

Below are a few Swifts and a Woodleigh I dug out of buffalo in 2009 Australia....... All broadside and all recovered on far side. Personally I would have rather had full penetration and exits. Two holes are better than one......... With that said, these done fine.

DSC03889.jpg


One of my early buffs I even shot with a 400 Swift in 458 Winchester, it was not a planned shoot, I had been using the 400 Swift for Lion, and this buffalo happened to get in the way on the last day of that hunt............ A 400 Swift or any expanding conventional 400 is not a good choice for buffalo.

DSC02966.jpg


Below is a 500 Swift A frame recovered from a buffalo shot with 458 Lott......... I used this combination for 3 buffalo in the Selous in 2005, combined with 500 gr Barnes Banded... FLAT NOSE solid.........

DSC02969.jpg


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Below is a 350 Swift A Frame recovered from a buffalo I shot in 2007..... 416 caliber

DSC02905.jpg


Now the below bullet is not one of mine, this was showed to me by a PH from another hunt before mine............ Hit some bone along the way.....

DSC00428.jpg



I even used a 45/70 Guide gun on buffalo in Zimbabwe in 2002. It was actually a fluke kinda thing, and I had a the Guide Gun along on an
elephant hunt, which I was using a 458 Lott for that. Just playing around with the 45/70 and we decided to take on a buffalo. While it ended
up on a good note, it was not a good decision back then using Cast Performance 420 gr bullets at 1850 fps. Bullet choice was poor, and not
quite up to par, today should I have to make that choice again there are some fantastic 45/70 bullets from CEB and North Fork that would do, and have done a FAR FAR better job.........

DSC04029.jpg


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Couple of years ago I took another lever gun out in my own 50 B&M Alaskan, but I used Non Conventional Raptors and #13 Solids on buffalo and hippo in Zimbabwe, far far more successful than lesser designs or conventional designs could have been.......

This is a 365 gr Lever Raptor in .500 caliber........ and a few 405 #13 Lever Solids recovered on that trip............ Pay attention to the weights on these bullets, all of them given as much, and far more penetration than possible with conventional designed bullets.

DSC02276.jpg


DSC09700-1.jpg


And back to .458 caliber on that same trip in 2013 I believe, I was using a 458 B&M 18 inch gun, equivalent to 458 Winchester, just a smaller platform. I was testing the then new 250 gr Socom bullet on mostly plains game, running 2900 fps. I shot 15 or so zebra, wildebeest, oryzx, and such with the bullet in South Africa before departing for Zimbabwe. The little bullet put those animals in the dirt on the spot every single time, and I had full penetration with all of them.

We were hunting a big croc along Kariba one day, and we got between a big sleeping bull hippo and the water...... He was about 125 yards or so off the lake in the bush. I had the 458 Loaded with the 250 Socom! At 15 yards there was no chance of loading a 450 #13 Solid without a huge disturbance. I put the little 250 straight through his brain, and he dropped like a rock, followed quickly by a point of the shoulder shot with the 450 #13. The 250 hit him so hard that brain matter squirted out his ear hole 6 feet in both directions.............. Bullet was recovered back of the skull.....in the neck.

DSC02280.jpg


DSC02279.jpg


With such success with the little 250 Socom, I really wanted to give it a try on a cow buffalo. I purposely hit the buffalo just behind the shoulder, going through both lungs. Bullet was recovered on the far side hide....... Wicked destruction of tissue...... Now do not mistake, I don't recommend this, and the 250 IS NOT A BUFFALO BULLET at all, this was test work, and we put it to the maximum test here..........

DSC09694.jpg


DSC09695.jpg


Who in the world has ever even heard of shooting buffalo with a 250 gr .458 caliber bullet............ Just Crazy.................

LOL..........

Yes, Matt, always interested in Bullet Tech, and different bullet experiences, I can't wait to see your recovered Woodleighs in 458 caliber
from buffalo! Will be very interesting.................. and educational for all I am sure................

Michael
 

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Great post Michael. Any pics of recovered Hornady DGX bullets in 500gr? A lot of folks say they suck, but haven't seen any pics to show why. I know they are used a lot in Africa and everyone that posts reviews love them. I can't do too much defending as I am still prepping to go and haven't been, but would love to SEE someones results. Not arguing against the other brands and types, just have always used and trusted Hornady ammunition and components with great results. Open invite folks!
 
Thanks for the pictures and stories Michael, I have no doubt those bullets work wonders, especially if you are crack shot. Bigger is not always better, Accuracy and toughness do count.
 
Hi Panielsen..... Truth of the matter the Hornady DGX does not have a good rep in the real world. When Hornady started with the "inter bond" in the big bores, and followed with the DGX, they worked the same. I tested several 458 500 Interbonds in the day, and to a bullet they wipe the nose off, leaving 400-425 gr in a cylinder to continue to penetrate. I have not tested the DGX, but have seen many recovered that did exactly the same thing. They penetrate actually more than if they expanded, but the problem is they do not transfer much trauma to tissue, one is not far from being better off just using a solid. There have been several issues with the DGX. I would never use one in the field.......

They are used a lot, BECAUSE THEY ARE LOADED AS "CHEAP" Factory ammo........... If they get a good review, 9 out of ten shot the buffalo, it ran 50 yards and died. But other than that, they don't know much about what the bullet actually did. Now you say, dead is dead, however, not all buff are created equal either, the next one might need a "little more killiing", so to speak...........

I always loved the plain old Interlock, the best non premium bullet ever made in my opinion....... The DGX ain't no interlock............


I shot a cow buffalo a couple of years ago with one of my 458 B&Ms. Using a 420 Raptor at 2250 fps. Shot was 30-40 yards, frontal chest. I am sure you are not familiar with how a Raptor works. Its a solid brass HP bullet. Once it enters any aqueous medium, in this case animal tissue, once inside the body 1.5-2 inches 6 "blades" shear simultaneously from the main bullet. This releases a tremendous amount of trauma at that point, as penetration continues for the next 3-4 inches the blades are traveling along with the main bullet. As this passes through tissue, the tissue expands, and the blades are slicing that tissue to burger. With conventional bullets, once it passes, the expanded tissue that is not torn, pulverized and destroyed by the bullet collapses back, not so with the Raptor and those blades ripping and tearing tissue for that 3-4 inches. As penetration continues the blades move away from center in a star pattern, at this point they become secondary projectiles, ripping and tearing at internal organs, vessels, and other vitals, while the remaining bullet continues to move forward in a straight line. The remaining bullet is like a broken bottle, sharp edges ripping and tearing tissue, it has now become a full caliber solid. This bullet produces more trauma, destroys more tissue and inflicts more trauma than any bullet I have ever witnessed. It is devastating. There is no upper end of velocity, that we as hunters can get to. There is a low end where the blades do not shear, on some of the bigger caliber safari raptors that is normally around 1600 fps. At that point it is just a solid basically. Penetration is everything when it comes to performance, this is about as close as you can come to a "Magic Bullet", as it really cannot fail. Even if your velocity drops below the shear threshold, it still does not loose penetration. Above shear threshold it is just wicked......

Back to the cow buffalo and frontal chest shot with .458 420 Raptor 2250 fps............. This is the heart of that buffalo, and clearly shows how the blades are working with the center bullet ripping a very large hole in the heart..........

DSC03520copy.jpg


We dug around for this bullet back in camp, we sifted and dug through the stomach contents, which I was sure it had to be caught up in this. We never found it in the stomach contents, and then found a hole in the back of the stomach. Within just a inch or so of exiting the stomach we recovered it......... The stomach contents of a buffalo are extremely dense and no conventional expanding bullet would even come close to exiting this material. Total penetration was between 4-4.5 feet........

DSC03529copy.jpg


DSC09053.jpg


This is another 420 Raptor recovered along with a couple of the blades in the chest cavity from another buffalo........

DSC09055.jpg


On that trip I shot 8 buffalo as I recall working with bullets from CEB and North Fork in .458 and .500 caliber.......... Below is another frontal shot on a buffalo from a 500 MDM and 460 Raptor, photo is not so good, but this heart is nearly cleaved completely in half.......

DSC03714copy.jpg


This is a .500 caliber Raptor recovered from another buffalo on that trip.............

DSC09059.jpg


DSC09061.jpg


This buffalo was utterly destroyed with that first shot. He had went down behind a fallen log, and backed up against thick brush. There was no way to approach from the rear, nor from the side because of the log. He was dead, but did not know it. On frontal approach, the only available, he popped up in front of me. At this point I gave him another Raptor in the noggin, gave him a very serious headache, followed by a 500 gr .500 solid next to it, and that was the morning excitement...... This Raptor was recovered back between the shoulders after going through the skull.... The solid actually had traveled the entire length of the buffalo from the nose and found sticking out Nose Forward, dead straight, in the right hip, nose sticking out... I can't find the photo of that bullet........

DSC09058.jpg


On that trip I shot a couple of buffalo with the .500 caliber 450 gr North Fork Expanding CPS. This is a tremendously good bullet, provides a great deal of penetration. All of those bullets exited, and put the buffalo in the dirt on the spot as well......... Most common CPS do not expand much, but John from North Fork and I worked close on this design and it is a fantastic bullet for buffalo, below are some test results in the .500s....... and what they look like. My son Matthew shot a huge huge brute of a bull with Paul in Australia with his 50 Super Short, and 375 gr North Fork Expanding CPS and results were incredible, those were recovered, after penetrating on an angle, found on the far side.......

DSC05323.jpg


DSC05327.jpg


DSC05299.jpg


I have not recovered one of the 450s from buffalo yet...........

As for the test work (Done BEFORE going to the field) with the .458 420 Raptor...... This is how it tested below........... Just FYI.........

DSC07516.jpg


Below is what I refer to as a "Witness Card" that is inserted into the test medium at 4 inches, it clearly shows how the blades shear and work......

DSC07519.jpg


and below some of the test work done with the 460 .500 caliber Raptor......

DSC07392-1.jpg


All bullets are tested rather vigorously before going to the field. Any bullet that did not or does not perform well in the tests, has no business going to the field......... What has proven itself in the test work before hand, has always, 100% of the time, proven itself in the field.............

In years past I myself did not always listen to the test work, and in every case I experienced failures in the field as well. Sometimes we can all be a little hardheaded, and sometimes have to learn the hard way. Fortunately I learned to listen and pay attention, so I no longer take a bullet to the field that does not perform well in the test work...................

Maybe some of this helps you guys, maybe some of you not, in all honesty, I hope for those that have less bias it helps, for those that are bias, I really don't care. Some folks you can help, some folks cannot be helped........... Either way........... I quit public forums about a year ago, I can't imagine what the hell I am doing back on one.............

Good Luck....... On all your endeavors........





Michael
 

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question on the hood...

have you shot it with only irons and how did you like the hood??
I have only fired it with the scope. I am short on practice time so mounted the scope when taking delivery. The bead, I would like better in white though as the brass bead is tough to find.
 
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Hi Panielsen..... Truth of the matter the Hornady DGX does not have a good rep in the real world. When Hornady started with the "inter bond" in the big bores, and followed with the DGX, they worked the same. I tested several 458 500 Interbonds in the day, and to a bullet they wipe the nose off, leaving 400-425 gr in a cylinder to continue to penetrate. I have not tested the DGX, but have seen many recovered that did exactly the same thing. They penetrate actually more than if they expanded, but the problem is they do not transfer much trauma to tissue, one is not far from being better off just using a solid. There have been several issues with the DGX. I would never use one in the field.......

They are used a lot, BECAUSE THEY ARE LOADED AS "CHEAP" Factory ammo........... If they get a good review, 9 out of ten shot the buffalo, it ran 50 yards and died. But other than that, they don't know much about what the bullet actually did. Now you say, dead is dead, however, not all buff are created equal either, the next one might need a "little more killiing", so to speak...........

I always loved the plain old Interlock, the best non premium bullet ever made in my opinion....... The DGX ain't no interlock............


I shot a cow buffalo a couple of years ago with one of my 458 B&Ms. Using a 420 Raptor at 2250 fps. Shot was 30-40 yards, frontal chest. I am sure you are not familiar with how a Raptor works. Its a solid brass HP bullet. Once it enters any aqueous medium, in this case animal tissue, once inside the body 1.5-2 inches 6 "blades" shear simultaneously from the main bullet. This releases a tremendous amount of trauma at that point, as penetration continues for the next 3-4 inches the blades are traveling along with the main bullet. As this passes through tissue, the tissue expands, and the blades are slicing that tissue to burger. With conventional bullets, once it passes, the expanded tissue that is not torn, pulverized and destroyed by the bullet collapses back, not so with the Raptor and those blades ripping and tearing tissue for that 3-4 inches. As penetration continues the blades move away from center in a star pattern, at this point they become secondary projectiles, ripping and tearing at internal organs, vessels, and other vitals, while the remaining bullet continues to move forward in a straight line. The remaining bullet is like a broken bottle, sharp edges ripping and tearing tissue, it has now become a full caliber solid. This bullet produces more trauma, destroys more tissue and inflicts more trauma than any bullet I have ever witnessed. It is devastating. There is no upper end of velocity, that we as hunters can get to. There is a low end where the blades do not shear, on some of the bigger caliber safari raptors that is normally around 1600 fps. At that point it is just a solid basically. Penetration is everything when it comes to performance, this is about as close as you can come to a "Magic Bullet", as it really cannot fail. Even if your velocity drops below the shear threshold, it still does not loose penetration. Above shear threshold it is just wicked......

Back to the cow buffalo and frontal chest shot with .458 420 Raptor 2250 fps............. This is the heart of that buffalo, and clearly shows how the blades are working with the center bullet ripping a very large hole in the heart..........

DSC03520copy.jpg


We dug around for this bullet back in camp, we sifted and dug through the stomach contents, which I was sure it had to be caught up in this. We never found it in the stomach contents, and then found a hole in the back of the stomach. Within just a inch or so of exiting the stomach we recovered it......... The stomach contents of a buffalo are extremely dense and no conventional expanding bullet would even come close to exiting this material. Total penetration was between 4-4.5 feet........

DSC03529copy.jpg


DSC09053.jpg


This is another 420 Raptor recovered along with a couple of the blades in the chest cavity from another buffalo........

DSC09055.jpg


On that trip I shot 8 buffalo as I recall working with bullets from CEB and North Fork in .458 and .500 caliber.......... Below is another frontal shot on a buffalo from a 500 MDM and 460 Raptor, photo is not so good, but this heart is nearly cleaved completely in half.......

DSC03714copy.jpg


This is a .500 caliber Raptor recovered from another buffalo on that trip.............

DSC09059.jpg


DSC09061.jpg


This buffalo was utterly destroyed with that first shot. He had went down behind a fallen log, and backed up against thick brush. There was no way to approach from the rear, nor from the side because of the log. He was dead, but did not know it. On frontal approach, the only available, he popped up in front of me. At this point I gave him another Raptor in the noggin, gave him a very serious headache, followed by a 500 gr .500 solid next to it, and that was the morning excitement...... This Raptor was recovered back between the shoulders after going through the skull.... The solid actually had traveled the entire length of the buffalo from the nose and found sticking out Nose Forward, dead straight, in the right hip, nose sticking out... I can't find the photo of that bullet........

DSC09058.jpg


On that trip I shot a couple of buffalo with the .500 caliber 450 gr North Fork Expanding CPS. This is a tremendously good bullet, provides a great deal of penetration. All of those bullets exited, and put the buffalo in the dirt on the spot as well......... Most common CPS do not expand much, but John from North Fork and I worked close on this design and it is a fantastic bullet for buffalo, below are some test results in the .500s....... and what they look like. My son Matthew shot a huge huge brute of a bull with Paul in Australia with his 50 Super Short, and 375 gr North Fork Expanding CPS and results were incredible, those were recovered, after penetrating on an angle, found on the far side.......

DSC05323.jpg


DSC05327.jpg


DSC05299.jpg


I have not recovered one of the 450s from buffalo yet...........

As for the test work (Done BEFORE going to the field) with the .458 420 Raptor...... This is how it tested below........... Just FYI.........

DSC07516.jpg


Below is what I refer to as a "Witness Card" that is inserted into the test medium at 4 inches, it clearly shows how the blades shear and work......

DSC07519.jpg


and below some of the test work done with the 460 .500 caliber Raptor......

DSC07392-1.jpg


All bullets are tested rather vigorously before going to the field. Any bullet that did not or does not perform well in the tests, has no business going to the field......... What has proven itself in the test work before hand, has always, 100% of the time, proven itself in the field.............

In years past I myself did not always listen to the test work, and in every case I experienced failures in the field as well. Sometimes we can all be a little hardheaded, and sometimes have to learn the hard way. Fortunately I learned to listen and pay attention, so I no longer take a bullet to the field that does not perform well in the test work...................

Maybe some of this helps you guys, maybe some of you not, in all honesty, I hope for those that have less bias it helps, for those that are bias, I really don't care. Some folks you can help, some folks cannot be helped........... Either way........... I quit public forums about a year ago, I can't imagine what the hell I am doing back on one.............

Good Luck....... On all your endeavors........





Michael
Well, I'm glad your back and sharing the info! Thank you for taking the time to post the detailed reply with pics!
 
In reference to some of what has been stated in the post, the Lott is what the Winchester should have been ("should have been", as in, past tense as, with today's powders, the Winchester is at last capable of fulfilling its original promise...500 grains at 2100-2150 fps...450 NE territory, and more than capable of getting the job done).
 
However, that said, should one be a monometal devotee, and still in desire of the above-mentioned velocities, best appeal to the Lott.
 
I hate how everyone in the Lott club say the .458 Win was a flawed caliber. Yes the .458 Lott is improved...more powder, more recoil and more expensive ammo...I don't think any animal with a well placed shot will be able to tell the difference.
 
I think all anyone is saying is that the Lott is what the Winchester should have been. Had Winchester gone full length right out of the chute (cannot really understand why they didn't, given that they were already clambering the 375 H&H), all the bad press the cartridge received in the early days would've never been printed. 2150 fps would've been a cake walk, no compressed loads required.
 
The only reason the .458 Win got a bad reputation because it was using lead bullets with substandard powder, now today, we don't have those worries. Yes they could have made the Lott back then....
 

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Cwoody wrote on Woodcarver's profile.
Shot me email if Beretta 28 ga DU is available
Thank you
Pancho wrote on Safari Dave's profile.
Enjoyed reading your post again. Believe this is the 3rd time. I am scheduled to hunt w/ Legadema in Sep. Really looking forward to it.
check out our Buff hunt deal!
Because of some clients having to move their dates I have 2 prime time slots open if anyone is interested to do a hunt
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shoot me a message for a good deal!
dogcat1 wrote on skydiver386's profile.
I would be interested in it if you pass. Please send me the info on the gun shop if you do not buy it. I have the needed ammo and brass.
Thanks,
Ross
 
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