Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by safari hunter, Dec 28, 2009.
I most certainly agree.
After reading the story I have to say if this is how SCI actually handled the situation, I find that to be the worse part of the entire thing.
Johan, as they say, to each his own. But for discussion sake I’m curious to hear about some of the “internal BS” and “a LOT of other reasons” that turned you away from the SCI organization. Because you are a hunting outfitter and one who makes a living off the hunting industry, I’m curious to know what other organizations you’ve turned your support to? Besides PHASA, you do support a variety of other organizations which endeavor to preserve your profession don’t you? Please don’t tell me you are one of those who will sit back and receive direct benefit from SCI or any other organization’s efforts to maintain hunting and yet gives nothing back.
I find it interesting that you hold yourself out as a PHASA member. We all know PHASA is very closely aligned with SCI and is a supporter and attendee at all major SCI events. Certainly this is because the PHASA membership generally agrees with and directly benefits from many of SCI’s efforts to protect hunting freedom and global wildlife conservation. Surely PHASA not only recognizes SCI to be the single largest and most active hunting organization in the world today, but also that many of its efforts are directed in support of hunting in Africa. Again, I find it interesting that you, a hunting outfitter, would disparage SCI, yet advertise your membership in PHASA.
BTW, I’m also curious to know if you are you opposed to an SCI member booking a hunt with your organization. If not, perhaps you should give some thought to standing on your principles and turn away prospective clients who support SCI. Maybe you should even post your objections to the SCI organization on your website. Prospective clients may be interested in “the internal BS” along with “a LOT of other reasons” that SCI is so bad.
I don’t think any organization is without some form of trouble or controversy. Yet SCI’s benefit and appeal for many hunting organizations and individuals is its overall diversity and support of a variety of programs which benefit sport hunting in general. For that fact alone I believe SCI should be cut just a bit of slack.
I see far too many people who will look for a reason, any reason, not to invest in a membership to any gun ownership organization or any hunting organization which directly benefits them. For those it's all 'take' and no 'give'. For when gun ownership and sport hunting finally goes away there will be no one left to blame but ourselves and our selfishness. What a shame.
Not having insider information and only relying on the forums it seems SCI has a few internal issues that should be adressed. The worst has been their ongoing support for Out of Africa. It looks like they finally severed ties with OOA, however, if warranted, an external audit of board members and officers should be conducted to determine if any unethical or illegal acts were committed concerning OOA.
There are plenty of good people that support SCI. It seems as though they do alot to support hunting worldwide but it seems to be difficult to get a current list of initiatives, projects, and funds spent to preserve our hunting rights. Maybe I have not looked in the right place for this info but I like an organization to be open about where our money is spent.
I do support Dallas Safari Club, NRA, Ducks Unlimited, and Delta Waterfowl. None of these organizations are perfect. Two of the last three years I attended SCI and plan to do so this year.
SCI is like the NRA, not perfect but the best or at least the biggest advocate of our sport.
Mike, your two above statements sum up my position on the matter perfectly. You obviously do support a variety of such organizations as do I. If we hunters have a desire to see our sport continue we must lend support to organizations that challenge those who wish to take our sport away.
Far too often I see individuals bashing the very organizations which endeavor to save our sport, then thanklessly take advantage of the fruits which follow such endeavors. As you said, none of the organizations is perfect . . . but without them you can kiss your desire to hunt and possess a firearm goodbye
Taken directly from the SCI website;
The SCI Mission Statement
Safari Club International is the leader in protecting the freedom to hunt and in promoting wildlife conservation worldwide.
Overview of SCI/F
Since inception, Safari Club International (SCI) has become a truly amazing organization. Our approximately 190 chapters provide us with a way to make and gather with friends, our Convention is a place to celebrate and enjoy our hunting heritage, and our Foundation is recognized as a world leader in wildlife conservation and education programs.
A quick look at our financial reports to the US Internal Revenue Service reveals that SCI spent nearly $300 million on hunter advocacy and wildlife conservation since inception (actual value is $278,186,963 from 1979 to 2008). The growth of the organization in both hunter advocacy and conservation led to a strategic decision to separate the two efforts into separate businesses in 1999: Safari Club International, a 501( c )4 hunter advocacy organization, and Safari Club International Foundation, a 501( c )3 charitable organization.
Since 2000, SCI has spent $140 million on protecting the freedom to hunt through policy advocacy, litigation and education for federal and state legislators to ensure hunting is protected for future generations. The passion of SCI members is reflected in the doubling of expenditures in the last decade to accomplish these goals.
Through direct involvement and partnerships with like-minded organizations, SCI has become a political force in Washington, D.C. and other capitals around the world. Influence has been enhanced through strategic responses to issues to guarantee the hunter’s voice is heard, development of the largest hunter-driven Political Action Committee that supports only pro-sportsman candidates and retains influential and effective lobbyists.
Our litigation staff, combined with the SCI Legal Task Force Committee, has engaged the anti sustainable-use community in federal and state courtrooms around the country. Development of a Hunting Legal Education course has further extended SCI’s reach to protect hunting opportunities in U.S. Courts.
Advocacy and education depend on effective, strategic and timely communication of issues to members and non-members. Our Safari Magazine and Safari Times newspaper publications have been recognized for their world class articles on hunting, firearms and identifying threats to our hunting heritage. The “In the Crosshairs” e-newsletter provides breaking news to more than 45,000 members on a weekly basis. SCI’s annual convention is widely viewed as the largest gathering of hunters and the hunting industry in the world attracting more than 22,000 attendees and dedicated SCI members.
Since 2000, SCI Foundation (SCIF) has provided $47 million to conservation, wildlife education, and humanitarian programs around the world. Growth of SCIF has continued to gain momentum through charitable donations from SCI members and direct grants from local chapters and the SCI organization. A recent effort that just completed its fund-raising drive is the Hunter Legacy Fund which is a dedicated funding source for wildlife conservation . This endowment was created by one hundred individuals and corporations, dedicating a pledge of $100,000 to create a $10 million endowment to ensure conservation programs of SCIF will continue long into the future. A similar effort kicked off in 2008 to create an endowment for conservation education.
With recent expenditures exceeding $5 million annually, SCI Foundation has continued to promote science–based conservation through wildlife research, capacity building in governments, youth and teacher education, and humanitarian programs which show the importance of the hunting community in society. A project nearing completion, called the “White Book”, will showcase nearly 150 conservation projects where SCIF has made major contributions to the world of wildlife management.
This year, the Conservation Department facilitated nine African nations to sit down together and discuss conservation of the African lion, including the issue of human-lion conflict. SCIF continues to strengthen our emphasis on North American conservation, with major support for two predator-prey projects and involvement in several projects throughout the continent. Our Eurasian efforts feature a ground breaking field study of snow leopards in Siberia as well as significant contributions to the management of several species across that continent.
Nestled in the beautiful Bridger-Teton National Forest near Jackson, Wyoming, SCIF’s American Wildnerness Leadership School (AWLS) provides the perfect atmosphere for the accredited educational programs. Established in 1976 with the vision of providing educators with a useful hands-on experience that they can use in the classroom, AWLS has provided a credited wildlife management program more than 5,000 teachers who reach more than a million students annually, and fun, challenging experiences for 1273 high school students. The AWLS program has expanded to provide conservation education opportunities in 4 other locations in the United States. SCIF has also provided scholarships to nearly 100 college students who have enrolled in natural resource management or conservation education fields.
SCIF Humanitarian Services programs have also experienced significant growth in recent years. In the last 5 years, SCIF Sportsmen Against Hunger Program donated 1 million pounds of venison to those in need. SCI members delivered 500 full Safari Care Bags to needy villages and orphanages around the world. More than 300 disabled hunters were given an assisted hunting experience through SCIF programs.
The International Wildlife Museum is dedicated to increasing knowledge of, and appreciation for, the diverse wildlife of the world as well as explaining the role of wildlife management in conservation. Founded in 1988, the museum has over 400 kinds of insects, mammals and birds from all over the globe, provides visitors the opportunity to see animals up close, and to gain a better understanding of their size and adaptive characteristics. At the museum, visitors are also exposed to the role of hunting in wildlife management and the role SCI and SCIF play in promoting wildlife management. In 2008, nearly 70,000 visitors from all over the world (almost 40 percent of them children) experienced the exhibits and were exposed to SCI’s message.
These are just a few of the accomplishments of Safari Club International and Safari Club International Foundation Throughout the world, our approximately 190 chapters contribute time, talent and financial support to local, national, and international conservation projects. While economic times may be trying, the passion for conservation remains strong with SCI Foundation. Please join us in membership or partnership as we continue to ensure that wildlife remains abundant for future generations. SCI and SCIF have earned the coveted Charity Navigator 4-star rating, your contribution will be used in an effective manner.
BIG5 , I'm a member of SCI for many years, almost since it's inception. I also am a member of just about every hunting and gun ownership organization you can name. At my age in my 74th year, hunting on my own since the age of six years of age, I find, like you, believe that no organization is without some under the table dealings, and in my opinion some very biased leanings toward people who do favors for them that are not strictly aboveboard.
Like all these so-called "CLUBS" many transgressions are overlooked because of those favors. The INNER CIRCLE gets ethics passes where international members do not, IMO! OOA is a fine example of that fact, and only divested themselves of them once some things about them was pushed into the light of day. All this is nothing new in any large organization that handles large amounts of money as they see fit with no accounting to members.
All that aside, SCI, NRA, and like organizations are the last defense against the overreach of government into our constitutional rights as a free people, of the, IMO, God given right of everyone every where to hunt, and to defend themselves and their families, and therefore should be supported, because, again as you say no organization is totally without fault, so we need to support the lesser of all evils, because we can't do it alone!
I never bad-mouth SCI other than to comment when asked about a perceived abuse of their power I will, as now, offer my opinion IMO, we need to police our own, before we police others! The truth will set you free, and cover-ups will bury you!
Has any information on this subject come out as to why Mark Sullivan was removed from SCI?
I have no bone in this fight and was just looking for another forum when i stumbled across this one...
I makes you wonder if SCI is worth joining?
Well I just borowed two of Mark Sullivans DVD's and I had to turn the first one off after about 10 minutes. What a load of self adulating BS. I didn't watch the 2nd.
If his hunts are anything like his DVD's then it shows just how many mindless and easily led consumers there are in ths industry.
Code4, I have spoken to Mark Sullivan, and I am planning to hunt with him as well in the near future. Is he arrogant or confident? Yes. No more so than a bodybuilder or a expert martial artist , who has prepared his/her entire life so that they can make a living doing so. Everyone will have thier own opintion about Mark Sullivan, but, it is thier opinion. When I was researching my Cape Buffalo hunt, I found on the back of one of my seven DVD's, his contact info. I called, he answered, we talked for aboout 35 minutes. The statement that closed the deal for me was, and I quote, "you own the videos, and have seen the way I hunt, would you rather pay for a package hunt with someone you have never met, or heard of, or would you rather face the charge 'if it happens' of a bruiser buff with someone you KNOW has faced a charge before". Think what you want, but, for my money and my love for life, I'm going with Mark. Big5, I am pretty sure has hunted with him, which is another person who I credit my current addiction with Africa, but, all I can say is, Mr. Sullivan was very polite and personable, I would trust him next to me with a 600NE.
Don't we have enough enemies (of guns and hunting) out there? Why the F*#k are we going after another hunter for the way he hunts? Honestly, if I were to hunt with anyone, besides my kids, there are going to be habits or traditions of that person that I may find unethical, and vice versa. They can hunt over bait in Texas, but, it is unethical in Missouri. You can hunt whitetail with dogs in some states, but not others. The list could go on and on. Kinda like watching Cable T.V., flipping the channel and then a porno comes on, you have 2 choices, you could watch it or change the channel (the PMRC would abolish it). Point is if you don't like what Mark Sullivan is serving, then eat somewhere else. I don't agree with some of the things he does, but, he has harvested some great animals and again seems to be a great guy. My 2 cents.
What I saw isn't what I call hunting but pure showmanship and a PH sucking up to the clients big time.
I do realise there are people happy to pay to be treated that way.
I do not have any first hand experience with Mr. Sullivan, so I do not know if he is arrogant or not. I have spent some time with some fairly accomplished martial artists. The best ones I know are confident, but by no means arrogant. The arrogant ones tend to be a step down from the best. Confidence is not shying away from a fight. Arrogance is looking for one. I'd rather have a confident man at my side than an arrogant one.
I've only seen one of Mr. Sullivan's videos and only made it through maybe 20 minutes of it. What I saw was plenty of chances to put in a second shot, but Mr. Sullivan waiting until the last second to "stop the charge" at the last second, thereby "saving the client". It looked like saving the client from completely avoidable situations. That may well have been just the way it came across in the video; it may have been a situation where he was giving the client every possible chance to finish the job himself, but it sure didn't look that way.
It does look like he can handle a rifle well and I do not doubt his skills with a firearm. The thing about the video was that it looked like he was trying to impress potential clients with his shooting prowess rather than the beauty of the environment, the animals, and the hunting experience. What the video did for me was give the impression not so much of a lack of judgement (I believe he knows full well what he is doing) but a conscious choice to provoke charges in order to show off. It looked like a sales pitch not for a great hunt but rather for a front row ticket to the Mark Sullivan Show.
The fact is that most dangerous game hunts do not end in a charge. From what I could tell in the video, nearly all of Mr. Sullivan's hunts end in a charge. Perhaps it is no different from Peter Capstick choosing the more hair-raising hunts to write about. It does make for better drama and a more exciting read. But Mr. Capstick also wrote with some eloquence across a broad range of topics, giving indication of a well-educated man with a depth of character that doesn't come across in Mr. Sullivan's videos. To me, danger is the spice that makes the experience complete, it is not the complete experience.
It is interesting to hear that he is a polite and personable man. Perhaps what comes across in the videos is just a stage persona.
35bore . . . If I am interpreting an earlier post correctly you seem to be of the belief that I have hunted with Mark Sullivan. Although I have been acquainted with Sullivan for many years I have never even considered booking a hunt with him. I’ll agree that he is very polite on a personal basis, but I do not like his field showmanship and what I consider his self-serving bravado. I have absolutely no interest in going out in the field with a film crew and being involved in a stage play. I therefore have taken my hunt bookings to several others who serve up something more to my liking.
As they say; To each his own.
Big5, the only reason I though you had hunted with him is because I have seen photo's with you and Mr. Sullivan over a fallen Cape Buffalo, as with photo's of Doug Turnbull and Mr. Sullivan. Perhap's it was for advertising purposes only, but, I must appoligize to you if you took offense, YOU are the one who peeked my interest for Africa in the first place, it was one of the first issues of Rifleshooter, since then I have purchased many of your books and videos. I also have several of Mr. Sullivans and other hunters and writers. Just in reading your books I can tell you have a very different hunting style than Mark's. Again sorry if I offended you by insinuating you had hunted with him, it was based on what I had seen in the magazine. Just a bad assumption on my part. Scott
To Code 4 - Bert the turtle - Big 5 & Bore 35
Code 4 - i did not who Sullivan was until a year ago...and my wife says the same-thing about his videos. I called and ordered is second Death and Double rifle. and 2 DVD.
Everyone can say what they want, you can learn a thing or two watching his videos. The situation that you are looking at is what many PH's have been saying all along...the client are not very good shots...this is evident by looking at many photos on the AH sight...
Look closely and you will see all sorts of game shot in the gut and rear end. on Plains game the track could be short to days in length...I just read about a wounded Lion that the PH spent 2 days tracking before finishing the Lion off.
I read a story about a PH and Hunter who shot an elephant and it dropped however because it was late they cut the tail off an went to camp to return the next day to see that the elephant went off and they did not find it.
So as i am reading many different story and books these seen to be apparent that the hunter is not familiar with their rifle and have difficult time hitting their target.
I am not saying you are not a great shot. the fact remains that the Cape Buffalo in Mark Sullivan videos have all been wounded by the client. The video i watched shows that the client was with in 40 yards and wounded the buffalo...so it stand to reason that for the client to make the shot he would need to be closer that the 40 yards...
I to have also spoken to Mark Sullivan for probably a 30 minutes or more when i ordered the book, Video and one of his shirts. I to found him very personable and confident...
On AH we have watched Video of Ph being charged and roughed up by a cape buffalo and another that was killed. Every year more hunters are injured or killed by cape buffalo that any other game animal in Africa.
So as you say you would want some one that is confident in your corner.
Bert the Turtle
the fact remains that the Cape Buffalo in Mark Sullivan videos have all been wounded by the client. The video i watched shows that the client was with in 40 yards and wounded the buffalo...so it stand to reason that for the client to make the shot he would need to be closer that the 40 yards...
Let me ask you a question if you have 2 shots in a double rifle would you use them early or wait until the cape buffalo is close for a sure kill shot? It takes time to reload and being out of lead at a critical time could be hazardous to your health.
I also have read Peter Capstick and wanted some some new material on Africa ant that is how i stumbled across Sullivan web site. I also was starting the planning process a year ago to take a safari and wanted something new to read. Until then the only video that i had was on varmint hunting of coyotes.
I do not know why you are being picked on.
I have found your post to be rather on target and trying to bet to the bottom of the story.
35bore . . . Sir, I have taken no offense whatsoever to any part of your posts on this subject. However, it does appear that you have me confused with someone else. Although I have been hunting for well over 40 years on several continents, including numerous African safaris and have been a member of SCI for more than 20 years you have never seen me posed over a buffalo with Mark. Over the years I may have been captured in a photo somewhere in Mark's presence, but not in the hunting field over any fallen animal.
I do wish you the very best in huntig success now and in the future.
Big5, Sorry again, I must have thought you were someone that you are not.
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