Lion hunts in RSA

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by JamieD, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Eastern Cape, South Africa
    My Photos:
    58
    Member of:
    PHASA ; SCI ; DSC ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, New Zealand
    Shakari,
    Just out of interest, how many captive bred lion hunts have you been on?
  2. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Agreed i would also prefer a longer wilding period.

    My best always
  3. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,924
    Likes Received:
    73
    My Photos:
    396
    Member of:
    KZN Hunters Assoc
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, USA, Mexico
    What was the proposed original Wilding Process?

    Can someone explain the issues surrounding the resistance to the "wilding" process.
    I can only assume it is cost based.
  4. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    I am unsure as to a concerted resistance, but if so i believe it would be cost related...

    It would be nice to have it longer than 96 hours, i know there was a two year proposal at one stage but even 3 months would be awesome... even 2 weeks, after all that's more chance than what some Kudu get... :)

    My best always
  5. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes Received:
    24
    My Photos:
    29
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, England, South Africa
    To be realistic about it, I doubt anything longer than 6 months will ever happen.
    I think between 3 and 6 months would make a totally different ball game and I think lots of the resistance against the captive bred lion hunting would go away.
  6. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Norwegianwoods ...... once again this Viking is probably correct,,,! :) :) :)

    My best always
  7. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    Lost my internet connection for a while and then had visitors so will give a quick catch reply and hope I haven't missed out too much.

    Jaco,

    I'm not a chemist or a vet and have never claimed to be so but I do remember a time where darting wasn't heard of and I do remember a time when it was just coming in and discussing it over a campfire........ no-one knew how rhinos would react to a dart so we went out the next morning and for the next 3 days and whacked a few in the arse and other places to see what would happen....... I guess I've done my fair share of darting over the years and especially in the early days, was well aware of how sensitive cats can be to some of these drugs.

    KMG

    I've never been on a canned lion HUNT because I don't believe there is such a thing but have seen (as a spectator) one or two canned lion SHOOTS and they disgust me......... but quite frankly, all one has to do is go to You Tube and you'll see plenty of them. - One doesn't need to guide them to know it ain't fair & it ain't hunting to shoot an animal under such circumstances.

    NorwegianWoods & Brickburn

    IIRC, the originally proposed wilding period was 6 months or 180 days but it was then amended to just a few days which to me is a real piss take and the real reason for that is simple economics........ if a lion eats just one impala worth US$150 per day for 6 months, it's going to cost the landowner something in the region of US$27000 just to feed that single lion.
  8. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,924
    Likes Received:
    73
    My Photos:
    396
    Member of:
    KZN Hunters Assoc
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, USA, Mexico
    That Kudu comment got me going.

    South Africa as a conservation story.

    "It pays it stays."
    A phrase that is unnerving in its scope.

    Game pays better than cattle farming. More game animals.
    Game animals can be farmed. More of them all the time.
    Animals can be bought and sold for a profit. Game capture and breeding is a huge business.
    Market forces drive prices and commodities. (Bought any Rhino Horn, Lion Bones, Elephant Ivory lately?)
    If someone will buy it, they will supply it.

    The farmers perspective on supply.

    W acquired the lions when all the inedible waste from the abattoirs became a problem.
    Each of the ... cattle slaughtered every month produces about 5 kg of such waste more
    than 10 tons per month.


    His lions are ..... not captured wild animals he bought them all and today farms with
    them as he would with any other animal on the farm. It is no environmental or conservation
    exercise.


    Lions are amazing animals to farm with, says W they are lazy and all they wish to
    do is eat and breed. You can feed them with any meat they eat anything. As far as they are
    concerned, there is no such thing as rotten meat.



    In order for the lions to be hunted, they need to be released and rehabilitated. Some are also
    sold at auctions.

    According to W, game farming is not only very profitable, it also helps restoring the
    environment which had been badly damaged by overgrazing. Bush encroachment has made
    successful cattle farming in the area just about impossible at today's beef prices.
    His main concern, however, is the profitability of game farming. The conservation of scarce
    or endangered species and the improved veld resulting from it, are added bonuses.


    (Copied from some Game breeder article I read)

    It was very shocking to me, coming from a place that has always had a huge fight against local game ranching (taking wild animals from the wild and farming them like cattle) to see game animals being purchased and sold at auction on a regular basis in Southern Africa. (We are fortunate to have huge spaces and reasonable hunting opportunities.)


    It took a significant amount of time to investigate the reality of the culture and the countries to understand what issues I needed to look for.
    The issues surrounding people making a living from hunting and how that may motivate them in a different manner than what I am used to.
    For those of us that hunt with out friends most of the time, who would question your friends motive or story about what he saw today while you were hunting. I know he is always lying about the size of the one that got away.
    How would he benefit from telling you he just saw one go over the ridge? He does not get paid or get a commission if you shoot an animal. His rent does not get paid by your success or failure. That was a brand new motivation in my hunting career and I had to get my head around it.


    I invested nearly two weeks into a PH course.
    It was the best investment of time and energy I could have made to learn about the realities of hunting in Africa. By no means did it cover everything, but it certainly provided an excellent frame of reference from which to continue my ongoing education in hunting.

    "What's a Boma hunt?" Indeed, what the hell is a Boma?
    Does a farmer care about your hunt experience?
    Record book Nyala being arrowed in an enclosure not much bigger than an urban lot. He still got paid.

    Indeed now discovering a whole industry based on producing horn by the inch, colour, etc.
    Buying animals by the inch. Something is just off about that.

    "Canned Lion"; What the hell is that? A new way to preserve meat?
    Now we have; "captive bred", "PAC", "Botswana raiders", "released", "ranched", "estate", etc. It's hard to keep up.

    One of the ongoing debates:
    To try and distill the issues down into something managable a first time hunter tries to eliminate their concerns by oversimplifying the issues to a style of fencing.
    It's NOT North America.
    The only way you can have ownership and thus allow hunting on the property year round is to have a fence and the proper permits.

    Now imagine this:
    South Africa, the whole country is 1,219,912 sq km (51,190,000 population)
    Alberta and Saskatchewan respectively 661,848 kmï½² (3,645,257 populations) 651,900 kmï½² (1,117,503 population)

    That means South Africa has 11 times the population of Alberta/Saskatchewan in 93% of the space!
    Where does wildlife fit in that picture?


    As a hunter, you will create the demand for the commodity.

    Decide on the story you want to write and make sure that the experience jives with that story.
    Ask a lot of questions.
  9. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Shakari, effects of these drugs wear of in a matter of hours, 96 hours later your cat is under NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER. THIS IS FACT.
    Trace elements though can be present weeks later, without any effect on the animal, once again marijuana users test positive for THC this element still detected in toxicology tests 3 weeks after use.......
    As far as the animal not knowing escape routes, true, but neither does a Kudu bought on Saturday dropped of on Sunday (under the influence of stresnil) and shot on Monday by meat factory operations pushing 300 clients a year.

    Any differentiation between the two is convenient to say the least. Please don't pull a cheap attempt to cloud the issue line again this because that is just a cheap attempt in trying to create a difference.... there are none.

    The issue is purely emotional, as lions have been made the Hollywood species of Africa.... HENCE THE DEMAND...

    Personal preference is exactly that each to his own, each to be respected.

    My best always
  10. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    Jaco

    If the drug is completely out of the system within hours then there should be no objection to the blood test then should there?

    If it shows up on a test, one should be able to deduct how long it's been since it was administered so again, there should be no objection to the blood test then should there?

    So all in all. A blood test is always going to be a good idea for all concerned. :)

    The difference between the kudu you mention & a captive bred lion is the kudu has spent it's life on a game farm in another location & finding it's own food etc whilst the lion spends it's life in a FAR smaller enclosed space & fed on a more or less regular basis by man so is more inclined to run towards a truck than from it........ The two things are completely different.

    Your comparing apples to oranges & with your experience of the industry, I'd be helluva surprised if you didn't know you were comparing apples to oranges. ;)
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Effects not trace elements shakari tests could potentially test positive,,,, by the way and i will mention this again a cocaine user can test positive without being under the influence... i hope that this is the last time that i have to explain this....the same with race horses, not for steroids but Ketamien, still testing positive days after the effect has worn off...

    Shakers i am by no means chickening out of blood testing i am purely stating before this can be excepted as a relevant or rather reliable method one should see how long it will still show up in toxicology tests, please refer to my previous posts with regcards to correlation between wilding periods and toxicology tests...

    Please also if we have nothing relevant to say let's rather quit.

    Your view of Kudu in the instance as mentioned in my previous post, is a convenient ignorant statement... and is noted as such by myself and many others, but unfortunately not fact. I think you are a little out of touch with the industry, as well as the goings on in certain cases, with all due respect.

    What use to be apples and oranges are now apples and apples

    My very best always
  12. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Effects not trace elements shakari tests could potentially test positive,,,, by the way and i will mention this again a cocaine user can test positive without being under the influence... i hope that this is the last time that i have to explain this....the same with race horses, not for steroids but Ketamien, still testing positive days after the effect has worn off...

    Shakers i am by no means chickening out of blood testing i am purely stating before this can be excepted as a relevant or rather reliable method one should see how long it will still show up in toxicology tests, please refer to my previous posts with regards to correlation between wilding periods and toxicology tests...

    Please also if we have nothing relevant to say let's rather quit.

    Your view of Kudu in the instance as mentioned in my previous post, is a convenient ignorant statement... and is noted as such by myself and many others, but unfortunately not fact. I think you are a little out of touch with the industry, as well as the goings on in certain cases, with all due respect.

    What use to be apples and oranges are now apples and apples

    My very best always
  13. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    We're not talking cocaine and humans, we're talking cats and sedatives and the fact is that a blood test WILL show if there's drugs in the system, how much of it and how long ago it was administered and to deny that is to try to defend the indefensible.

    I don't think my view of kudu is at all unrealistic & I don't think I'm out of touch with the industry or how it works either.

    The VAST majority of kudu (pretty much all) that are translocated have spent their entire lives on game farms sustaining themselves in a natural habitat without any human interference other than the most basic kind, whilst pretty much every single captive bred lion has spent it's entire life in a FAR smaller area being artificially fed......... but if you (and the rumoured others) think otherwise, I'd be interested in hearing about real life examples & seeing links etc?

    Apples are still apples & oranges are still oranges & never the twain shall meet............ any more than a captive bred lion shoot could ever be compared to the hunting of a truly wild lion. ;)
  14. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Sedatives, amphetamines, have a visual effect on humans or animals we all share the same basic biology, thereafter trace elements exists long after the visual and physical effects have gone, I find it concerning that this is such an unbelievable fact or concept to grasp...

    I also know the limitations of what toxicology can indicated and your statement is quite beyond that.
    It can purely point out trace elements, directing one to a specific sedative but mostly multiple possibilities...

    Hence once again the need for correlation between wilding periods and trace element existence in blood.

    SHAKARI I believe you are, and conveniently so....it places you in a much more comfortable arm chair position in this time of your life, thereby leaving the channels open to massive public criticism, with very little reason or understanding in what the reality is...

    We have discussed this at length in the past and it took me a while but now it is clear to me..

    I hope you enjoy Portugal and retirement, feel free to look me up when in not so peaceful South Africa.

    My very best always
  15. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    Actually cats react VERY differently to most drugs than other animals & I'm well aware traces of drugs linger far longer than the effects of them & I've never denied that BUT that doesn't alter the fact that a blood test will show what drugs were used, when they were administered & whether the animal was under the influence when killed and surely that has to always be a good thing unless someone is trying to conceal something?

    Ja. I'm loving every moment being retired here although I do sometimes miss Africa & often miss my friends there but the reason I argue so vehemently against this captive bred lion shit is because I like to hope real hunting will continue in Africa for the next generation & I think unsporting killing in the guise or hunting is the biggest threat to that in existence today......... & I'll rage against it all the while I have breath in my body!

    BTW........ any news of those captive reared, hand fed kudu that are so often translocated & shot the next day that you told me about? - I'd be very interested to see evidence of them. LOL
  16. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    Ha, enjoy Portugal.... shakari you are over estimating the ability of toxicology, no bloodtest will or can show whether or not a cat was slightly inhibited, or whether the drug was administered 6 days ago, sorry

    Enjoy retirement, if i want to go in circles i do it on a Mary go round....

    My best to you
  17. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    Jaco

    That's not what my vet friends tell me......... but perhaps you know better?

    No news of those captive reared, hand fed kudu that are so often translocated & shot the next day that you told me about then? - I'd be very interested to see evidence of them. LOL.

    Perhaps I'm not so out of touch with things as you'd have people here believe!

    Hey, if you don't want to go round in circles, you could always address the debate in hand rather than duck the issues because you know you're trying to defend the indefensible. :)
  18. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,659
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    80
    Member of:
    SCI, PHASA, IPHA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Tanzania
    I think you are you are just not willing to admit it...., we will continue to hunt lion, wild and captive bred, while they are legal...

    I am sure by 2016 you will find something else to bother me with, who knows maybe you'll enlighten us on how, a dangerous game rating can be provided in 14 days with the guidance of well known lecturers, and other individuals who write books,,,, there is an age old saying those who can't do..... teach.

    I have enjoyed this tremendously, but for know i have had enough of this Mary go round... as a side note i do not need to prove a thing it is in plain sight for all to see.... maybe not for you as you are in Portugal, but for most others....

    Peace love and harmony........

    The little wise ass :):):)
  19. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    1
    So you can't answer the questions then? - I thought not.

    Don't understand your comment about 14 days? Which incidentally, sniffs of the principle of Ad Hominem (Google it!) - Where did you get your licence to make you so different to anyone else in RSA & where else have you operated other than Moz if you want to play that game?

    Still no news on those kudu then?
  20. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Eastern Cape, South Africa
    My Photos:
    58
    Member of:
    PHASA ; SCI ; DSC ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, New Zealand

    :nofeed:

Share This Page