Lion hunts in RSA

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by JamieD, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Membership to CIC was not terminated due to the CIC's opinion on lion hunting in SA it was due to CIC's very opinionated view of ranch hunts in SA over the broad spectrum, personally my view of CIC is by no means how can I put it.... Uhhh great.

    My best always
     
  2. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Excellently put...... Ronnie has it dead right.

    I'd bet a pound to a pinch of the smelly brown stuff that if PHASA has the courage to hold a postal ballot on the issue, they would get a very different result & the voluntary wilding period would change/lengthen dramatically......... I hope they do have that courage. :)

    Actually, I'd like to see PHASA vote on a total & absolute moratorium on captive bred lion shooting but I have my doubts that'll happen in the foreseeable future.

    I also wonder if the pro guys here that have spent so much time trying to defend the indefensible will then abide by that voluntary longer wilding period or would abide by a total & absolute moratorium on captive bred lion shooting.


     
  3. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Speechless........
     
  4. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    At my comment or at the very idea of an absolute or total moratorium on what brings you guys a fair bit of income? LOL

    It's actually not an unreasonable question...........
     
  5. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    LMFAO!!!

    :vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit::vomit:

    CiC in principal has...issues with South African ranch hunts due to all ranches being fenced... the next thing you'll suggest is to stop all if this...


    Ridiculous to say the least....convenient though...
     
  6. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    My comment had nothing to do with CIC & I made it quite clear that I was referring to a possible voluntary moratorium on captive lion shooting & whether you guys would abide by such a vote should it ever happen.

    I don't know enough about the CIC issue to comment but do reckon he's dead right about the captive bred lions & I applaud his stance on it. :)

    As for fenced game ranches. I don't have a problem with them at all. They're not a patch on a true wilderness area but are not presented as such.
     
  7. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    This is the best thing that appears whenever you post anything.....


    Jaco, let me know when that Eastern Cape "AH Outfitters Meeting" is happening. Maybe the outfits should organize an offshore fishing day. You know, on the ocean...that big blue pond with the waves.....
    No Cob in the Vaal dam swaer... ;)
     
  8. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Originally Posted by shakari

    Retired from the Professional Hunting field in Africa....

    Originally Posted byKMG

    "This is the best thing that appears whenever you post anything....."

    There you go with the Ad Hominem again...... you can't defeat the argument so you attack the man. It doesn't work and the only thing it succeeds in is making you look ridiculously childish. But you carry on with that if you like and I'll be happy to carry on with arguing the side of good ethics in the hope that some hunters at least will recognise captive bred lion shooting for what it really is.
     
  9. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Yawn. I'm done.
    Next.
     
  10. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    No answers then? ROTFLMAO!
     
  11. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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  12. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I suggested as difference that fair chase hunting based on morality is killing with a conscience, "whereas the killing of animals based on prudence alone", entails an act of execution without a conscience.

    this part is confusing as the definition of prudence is Prudence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . i must confess i find that any time someone brings up the idea, or asks a question about hunting a lion in SA on this site it goes into the same drawn out arguments over and over.....................i can see both sides of the argument, but i am sorry in that the simple fact is from pheasant to boar to deer, antelope etc they are bred on farms,ranches, reserves for hunting, in the fact they are either put there in the manner of pheasant poults to grow or they are already breeding inside the dreaded "FENCE".......and they breed as well as being topped up for replacement due to poaching and genetic reasons. to me the reason lions cause so much shit is simply because they are "LIONS" as opposed to pheasants etc. i know this as my departed mum didnt have a problem with hunting/shooting or whatever certain people want to call it apart from lion which for some reason along with elephant seem to be sacrosanct with most people, even clapping poachers only got oh no not really from her....so to me the whole thing about hunting/shooting/taking or whatever you want to call it on fenced property regardless of the animal pisses me off, as i consider it totally negative to all fenced ranches/reserves where i and a lot of other people have put shit loads of money, time and effort into reistablishing the game animals in areas where they had been either poached out or removed for farming etc, and then reintroduced or for the others where they had maintained the land with the animals etc as it was. i am going to group all private places together now whether they offer lion or not, as we are basically going to have the places where you will mostly be able to hunt in the future, so PLEASE STOP CRAPPING ON US and be pleased that these places are in existance .
     
  13. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    There is alway, unfortunately, a certain percent of the hunting public that have to tell others how to hunt. Granted in many cases they were damn lucky to enjoy hunting the way most us would like to hunt....but the circumstances have changed (environmentally and monarary). And unless the time machine is built we are stuck with the present circumstances.
     
  14. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    :) Marius it will be around the date of the AGM which will be in the EC this year, I mostly surf fish, but suck at any form of it, dam, river and ocean...

    It doesn't stop me from doing it though, and I would relish the chance to do it with some mates.. !!

    It's on!! :)
     
  15. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Spike

    There's one very major difference and it's nothing to do with fences. (I'm talking Africa here BTW)

    The other game such as antelope etc are released or born in the area and then spend the rest of their lives learning that area. They are self sustaining (for the most part) and learn the terrain, escape routes and watering points etc so have a good chance of evading their pursuers.

    These lions on the other hand are bred in an enclosure and only released into the area they're shot a few hours or at most, a few days before being shot and therefore do not know the terrain, escape routes and watering points etc & therefore cannot evade their pursuers in the same way the antelopes can. - The very real possibility of their still being under the influence of drugs can make things even worse......... and don't for a moment think that last possibility doesn't happen..... (Which is why it's a good idea to take a blood test from the animal).

    A captive bred lion is a captive bred lion no matter whether it's newly released into a fenced area or a true wilderness area and neither situation is anything close to fair chase hunting......... if you don't think the latter thing can occur check back a few years on the 'other forum' for the thread where Ganyana tells the story of how a newly released lion had been released a few hours before it was shot in the middle of the Zambezi Valley. The only reason it was discovered was the clients (NOT Ganyana's BTW) went to the skinning shed and found someone repairing a broken trailer and the guy let the cat out of the bag. (pardon the pun). The client quite understandably refused to pay.



     
  16. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    True they lions are the pre Madonna / Hollywood animals of Africa...
     
  17. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    steve i dont agree with the drugged up bit either, but some of the operators on here say that most are live captured in cages and i believe them, as from what i have seen/read on here they seem honest reputable people. there will always as has been said the people of another ilk, but thats where the background search that people on here are so adamant about comes in to play. i have heard about the lion in the valley before and we have all heard of the frozen leopard shot by the client............i know they are released to be hunted, but if that pays some of the big bills involved with running these ranches/reserves, and therefore benefits the other animals by helping to keep them open for hunting and other forms of tourism then they are playing a role in conservation, and helping make a profit then thats good as these places will still be there in the future, as no can run a place without making a living . i know sometimes i have thought it would be great to be able to do it, as for the first quite a few years its a one way route with the money and thats not mine or patsys way its from us. so one or two lion hunts would provide some nice running costs. maybe i am looking at from the other side of the street to you and have a different perspective on the whole issue , but in this day and age there are too many grey areas in a lot of issues where there has to be compromise, as the "good old days" when it was a lot easier to put things as black or white are gone. i had my rant in my above post and have put here my opinion on the subject, and i am saying bye to this thread as it could and probably will continue going round in circles for a long time, as neither the twain shall meet. cheers mike
     
  18. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Mike

    It doesn't play any part in conservation whatsoever because wild lions are on a set quota and once that quota is filled, then that's it for the season. The two things are not connected in any way.

    The only thing it does do is allow a trophy room that doesn't have a lion to have one, so a collector has a cheap, easy lion and the seller makes additional money. As I see it, the seller is either in the hunting business or the interior decoration business and in the case of captive bred lion shooting, the so called 'hunter' might just as well save himself the airfare and have the seller execute the lion for him and just ship him the skull & skin.

    As for the drugs, they only make things worse but the lack of drugs doesn't make the practice right....... it just makes it less wrong.

    To give an example of how people can be misled into thinking these shoots are hunts: My first post on this thread was in reply to a guy who had shot a captive bred lion and thought it was fair chase because he'd shot it in a large fenced area......... he obviously hadn't even considered how long that animal had been there etc. (note, I'm not having a pop at him personally... I'm just pointing out how people can misunderstand the situation)

    I reckon Ronnie Rowland and the old PHASA statement about what they called canned lion shooting and I prefer to call captive bred lion shooting are both dead right.


     
  19. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ok i am just going to do one more. i consider the fact that they help pay the bills on these ranches/reserves to be an aid to conservation . whether you like it or not in the not too distant future they will be the only places people will be able to hunt. botswana, zambia at the moment apart from a tiny amount of govnt areas, the majority of south africa........thats where you can hunt. as i said this will go on ad infinitum to throw in a bit of latin for you ;) and as i said before never the twain shall meet :goodbye:
     
  20. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I agree the twain will never meet........ and that's the difference between true hunting and simply shooting to equip a trophy room for the owners self aggrandisment and when the day comes when true hunting is finished as it surely one day will, it'll be a very sad day and I hope I won't be around to see it.

    I'll say it (yet) again. The captive bred lion shooting industry has nothing whatsoever to do with hunting or conservation. It never has and it never will. - And what's more, every day it continues and every lion that dies under such circumstances, does more and more damage to the honourable & ethical tradition of real trophy sport hunting.
     

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