Lion hunts in RSA

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by JamieD, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    The site seems to be having problems today - or at least, it does from here....... I'm having trouble accessing the site AND the posts I see differ from my post notifications but going by the latter, the 6 month wilding period was proposed at least as far back as when the spineless Van Schalkwyk made his initial proposal that he then bottled out of under threat of prosecution from the breeder's association.
     
  2. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    PHASA has 10 EXCO members and moaning1500 members give or take, 20% of this is around 300 add a couple proxy votes and the constitution if memory serves well allows for a legal vote...

    Blaming Adri is piss poor form! Especially if you consider that the same guys are found at AGM, as well as provincial meetings...

    Honestly most members are slap gat and keep on yapping with regards to what PHASA does for them when they are the very PHASA that needs to do something for themselves within the association.

    Not being a member you(any non member) are excluding yourself, and i am he'll bent against listening or entertaining any bitching and moaning if one elects to exclude yourself.

    Democratic it was did most of the guys complaining give a damn? Surely if it is that important to you, you make a plan, many others did?

    Democratic once again most definitely, priority well parent for some not.

    You have lost your privilege to voice your opinion by your own doing.

    Thirdly, PHASA does NOT have the authority to change or alter legislation period. They are also not a regulatory body but rather act in the best interest of their members, hence the reason to be pro active...

    Honestly all this chirping from the bleachers is getting quite old (all non members included)


    ...
     
  3. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    PHASA has 10 EXCO members and moaning1500 members give or take, 20% of this is around 300 add a couple proxy votes and the constitution if memory serves well allows for a legal vote...

    Blaming Adri is piss poor form! Especially if you consider that the same guys are found at AGM, as well as provincial meetings...

    Honestly most members are slap gat and keep on yapping with regards to what PHASA does for them when they are the very PHASA that needs to do something for themselves within the association.

    Not being a member you(any non member) are excluding yourself, and i am he'll bent against listening or entertaining any bitching and moaning if one elects to exclude yourself.

    Democratic it was did most of the guys complaining give a damn? Surely if it is that important to you, you make a plan, many others did?

    Democratic once again most definitely, priority well parent for some not.

    You have lost your privilege to voice your opinion by your own doing.

    Thirdly, PHASA does NOT have the authority to change or alter legislation period. They are also not a regulatory body but rather act in the best interest of their members, hence the reason to be pro active...

    Honestly all this chirping from the bleachers is getting quite old (all non members included)

    Since when did I need anyone's permission to voice whatever opinion I like on whatever subject I like?

    You might not like my opinion but you have no right to tell me I can't express it & if you don't like it, you can shove it where the sun don't shine!

    So tell me....... how many of those 1500 members were present when the vote took place?
     
  4. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    PHASA has 10 EXCO members and moaning1500 members give or take, 20% of this is around 300 add a couple proxy votes and the constitution if memory serves well allows for a legal vote...

    Blaming Adri is piss poor form! Especially if you consider that the same guys are found at AGM, as well as provincial meetings...

    Honestly most members are slap gat and keep on yapping with regards to what PHASA does for them when they are the very PHASA that needs to do something for themselves within the association.

    Not being a member you(any non member) are excluding yourself, and i am he'll bent against listening or entertaining any bitching and moaning if one elects to exclude yourself.

    Democratic it was did most of the guys complaining give a damn? Surely if it is that important to you, you make a plan, many others did?

    Democratic once again most definitely, priority well parent for some not.

    You have lost your privilege to voice your opinion by your own doing.

    Thirdly, PHASA does NOT have the authority to change or alter legislation period. They are also not a regulatory body but rather act in the best interest of their members, hence the reason to be pro active...

    Honestly all this chirping from the bleachers is getting quite old (all non members included)


    ...
     
  5. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Seems like my last post got lost but in short:

    You might not like my opinion but I have every right to express it whether you like it or not & that right includes the right to criticise both Ms Kitshoff & PHASA for allowing that vote & if you don't like my opinion, I suggest you do the other thing.

    However, if you consider the vote to be fair, tell me, how many of the 1500 members you mention were present when the vote was taken?

    Incidentally, I never suggested PHASA has the right to amend legislation & the vote wasn't about that as you well know....... it was about a voluntary moratorium on members to guide on these shoots with a shorter wilding period.
     
  6. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    I'm stating obvious facts, i suggest you read PHASA' s constitution, i am not about to start running around the cats ass again with you STEVE.

    Check out the demographic of the members, obviously to those who it matered they attended, to those who did not attend well they obviously don't care, hunting is a crap excuse as AGM is in November.

    I will have a solid to the vote number for you within hours, just to allow you to find something else to bitch about,

    There was no blind side whoever gave you that idea has the facts wrong, apart from that AGM is the stage that is set every year formally voting it is no damn secret....it has been like that for years decades even..

    Out!,! enough is enough
    ....
     
  7. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    So as usual, you & the gang are unable to defend the indefensible & again resort to Ad Hominem......... I expected nothing more from you.

    Voicing my opinion isn't a privilege, it's a right & in fact, a right stipulated in most free world constitutions....... including I believe, your own. :)

    I'll look forward to the figures just like I'm still looking forward to the info about the captive bred, hand reared kudu someone mentioned. LOL!

    As to everyone who considered it important attending........ you've gotta be joking! Many will have been hunting & many more too far away to attend & many also simply not able to afford to attend!
     
  8. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Ad homo whatever I honestly don't give.. A Monkey's butt crack!, these are the facts you either get it or you don't.

    No blind side the notion of it is gd ludacris.

    Reason PHASA AGM is a stage set for voting as it has been for years...those who attend and make an effort to be pro active are passionate, this who don't are lazy and should not complain if their non existing voice was not heard... A TYPICAL MODERN WORLD DEMOCRATIC ELECTION,

    A constitution dictates the % needed to have a democratic vote not an individual, any number less than the stipulated %.and no voting can be done, that simple.

    So....Excluding yourself (and by that I mean non attending members and non members) and then wanting to steer the ship from the bank is silly, the best captains are always on land.

    If you had the chance to vote why did one not do it, I did not know is a weak excuse...(become pro active)

    Blaming PHASA is weak, instead, blame me and every other guy and Phasa member that voted as we are Phasa, and lastly but most importantly blame YOUR SELVES for not voting..or making an attempt to and because of that not being able to make the difference you so badly seek!!...if it was that important at the time you would have made an effort and so would the other complainants .

    SHAKARI Im not shying away from anything I don't need to defend anything!....and I honestly do not need to listen to nonsense being thrown around and mixed up with the hope of creating confusion... Wow!

    Make no mistake I get that you think and believe with your whole heart that captive bred lion hunting, shooting, hitting with a car and or molestation is a despicable act, all be it in some cases mis informed or rather over generalized.. We all do get your thoughts on this.

    We then also feel that a longer wilding period could be beneficial without a doubt.

    But I and some others possibly do not share your point of view, on other thoughts.

    We have been up and down this thread for many days and the same thing gets said over and over again, then a different angle is added and yet the result is always the same.....

    Ad homo this, I am done with this thread and hopefully done with any replies to do with this thread it has been entertaining... All be it slightly, it has been enlightening as to what the majority in this particular site's feeling are, a extremely good suggestion was put forward by Buff buster at the on set of our comments (the wise man he stopped commenting) which I believe is something our industry should look into..
    I WILL PERSONALLY LOOK INTO IT BUFF-BUSTER.

    But for myself,... I have had enough of this, as the saying goes and this is NO AD HOMO... STUPIDITY IS NOT RUNNING INTO A BRICK WALL... STUPIDITY IS CONTINUALLY, TIME AFTER TIME RUNNING INTO THE SAME BRICK WALL AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT...

    I HAVE BEEN STUPID!!! Ad homo! (And all of that on my phone!)

    .....

    ..
     
  9. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Ad Hominem is as I explained previously, a Latin expression that means 'attack the man when you can't win the argument' & your post is a classic example of it.

    If you're done with this thread, does that mean you're unwilling or unable to give me the info on the number members present when the infamous vote took place just like you & the guys are apparently unwilling or unable to give me evidence of the aforementioned pen raised & hand fed kudu that are (apparently) so commonly released for shooting)

    Like I also said previously, you can't defend the indefensible!

    ROTFLMAO!
     
  10. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    And yours a classic example of what I referred to in my post, Steve it is not a matter of not being able to do provide you with proof of pen drop and shoot kudu, it is a common thing, how do you think outfitters can offer and guarantee 60" kudu bulls at prices $6 - $10k, please don't speculate as I have told you how it works.

    Apart from this I fail to see the need to have a discussion with a know it all... Living in a different country but seems to be a fundi on life and all thing connected. Homo that.

    Apart from that I only need to defend myself if I have done something wrong and in my mind and many others I have not.
    As you are an outsider with an opinion.
    Homo that.

    The best is if you go back to previous threads which I have been studying intently, you will notice a steady and sharp decline in my politeness, I am a friendly happy well educated and well informed man, and Steve communicating with you over a period of time has made me a worse person, and that I do not like.

    Hence my reasons for leaving this thread which will enable me to avoid being that which I do not like.

    My best to you and yours may you have many peaceful years in Portugal, and write a book or two which someone will read.
     
  11. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Ad Hominem again and then wriggling out of the argument because you can't provide the answers and/or defend the indefensible.

    Which I think proves my point(s) rather well.
     
  12. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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  13. Paw Print

    Paw Print SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Steve, you are falling into ad hominem yourself, attacking the man(and the lady), whilst you have not given any proper argument against captive bred lions, accept for it not being ethical, which is not even a fact but a perception. I am also going to leave this thread as it is not worth arguing perceptions .
     
  14. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Nope. I didn't attack her personally. I said I felt she hadn't done her job properly and that she'd fallen in my estimation because she had allowed the thing to be hijacked by a minority and that such an important matter deserved a postal ballot so that all members had the opportunity to vote. - And I believe that. Postal ballots have been held by PHASA before on subjects such as hunting leopards with hounds and there's no reason it couldn't have been done again.

    That isn't a personal attack, it's a comment or perhaps criticism of her professional abilities.

    ADDED

    Oh and I've given plenty of reasons/arguments why captive bred lion shooting shouldn't happen/be allowed including proving why it contributes nothing to the conservation of wild lions whereas your little group have been totally unable to justify it.
     
  15. Code4

    Code4 AH Enthusiast

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    Steve,

    Most of the members here are in or connected to the industry and are hardly going to change their minds or business model anytime soon. Those who subscribe to your ethics aren't in the business of providing lions to be shot in South Africa or as clients would purchase such a product.

    We all know your position and I agree with it in part. I also have no problem shooting a lion in South Africa (if I won the lottery) but damned if I'd take the thing home and call it a trophy. That is my choice as it is every consumers choice.

    You have made your point numerous times and made it very well.
     
  16. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Kind of you to say so! ;)
     
  17. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    The BS detector was set to high... ;)
     
  18. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    :hmmmer:with people bowing out does this mean i wont have to keep emptying my email in box when its full of the posts on this thread :praying:;)
     
  19. BRICKBURN

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  20. AFRICAN INDABA

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    FORMER PHASA PRESIDENT RONNIE ROWLAND ON PHASA LION POLICY

    \Editor's Note (G. Damm): Ronnie Rowland is a past president of the Professional Hunters' Association (PHASA), recipient of the PHASA Wildlife Utilization Award in 2000 and recipient of the Coenraad Vermaak Trophy in 2005. Today Ronnie Rowland lives and hunts professionally in Namibia. Following the PHASA decision to adopt the SA predator breeders' association stand on "hunting" of captive bred lions, Rowland wrote to the Executive Committee of PHASA in March 2014. African Indaba obtained permission to let you have Rowland's thoughts in an authorized, edited version:

    Aldo Leopold concluded in his contemplation on ethics, that ethical behavior defines itself by doing the right thing in the absence of witnesses even if it's legal to do the wrong thing! Ortega y Gasset, in turn, observed in his masterful essay "Meditation on Hunting", that the essence of hunting in our modern day and age has changed its character from hunting and gathering for survival to sport hunting with the principle of fair chase at its core. This change was prompted by hunters in order to negate the emerging imbalance between hunters and hunted through the development of modern day weapons and technological aids. By doing this, hunters strive to preserve the true essence of hunting and not to transgress certain boundaries which would reduce it to merely become an act of wanton killing or execution.

    To preserve the true essence of hunting in today's world one also has to consider that animals should be naturally wild with natural inborn instincts, as opposed to those that have been linebred, domesticated and/or habituated. Both Leopold and Ortega impressed upon us to adhere to certain self-imposed principles, norms and standards should we want to safeguard our natural heritage as true hunters. At the core of this is our conscience.

    Many years ago I wrote in the PHASA Newsletter that morality and prudence are two sides of the same coin. The two concepts are often confused with one another. I suggested as difference that fair chase hunting based on morality is killing with a conscience, whereas the killing of animals based on prudence alone, entails an act of execution without a conscience. For clarity sake compare any true fair chase hunt of a wild animal with the shooting of a captive bred lion. Once we allow hunting to become amoral, i.e. without a conscience, we are transgressing the self-imposed boundary between hunters and hunted, ultimately destroying the essence of hunting. Once we allow rationality especially material gain to supersede our moral values, our world in general and hunting in particular, is doomed. Decisions based on prudence alone, will kill hunting!

    As a PHASA Past President and Honorary Life Member I would like the leadership of PHASA as well as the members to take note that I do not only disagree, but also distance myself totally from the direction taken and also from the ending of the liaison with the CIC Captive-bred lion shooting and the non-definitive positioning of PHASA regarding line breeding of mutants and recessive gene color variants of wild animals transgresses the boundaries of fair chase hunting, endangers the essence of hunting and at the same time allows the erosion of our moral foundations. In my opinion our greatest challenge is convincing the general public as well as governments that the wise and sustainable utilization of our natural wildlife through hunting is indispensable. The CIC is the only European based organization that has stood up for our cause with distinction. No other organization has a better and broader respected standing with IUCN and governments worldwide! So why did PHASA decide terminating membership in the CIC? Obviously, if the reason for the breakdown in relationships concerns the captive-bred lion issue and/or line-breeding, massive obstacles have to be overcome.

    It is fair and well to comment that the lion issue was debated extensively at the last two PHASA AGMs and that a majority decision by PHASA members led to the present direction taken, i.e. to accept captive bred lion shooting as a reality. However, the lion issue had already been properly debated and thoroughly contemplated since the middle 90s resulting in a PHASA policy statement against captive bred lion shooting in the late 1990's This position and the policy were reconfirmed again in 2006. The PHASA leadership in those days refused to accept "canned lion hunting" as a form of hunting, defining it to be the mere execution of captive bred lion, hence the phrase "captive bred lion shooting", like in target shooting. In both cases the policy was accepted with an overwhelming majority by the members at the AGMs concerned. Question: What in actual fact has changed? None of the arguments, contemplations deliberations and facts of yesteryear, based on ethical reasoning with a moral foundation, have changed. The only thing to my mind that has changed is the leadership and the overwhelming commercialization of hunting which allows the "Dollar God" to reign supreme!

    The PHASA Code of Conduct underwrites the concept of fair chase. Has anyone realized that the acceptance of captive bred lion shooting also requires a change in this Code of Conduct since fair chase hunting is in total contradiction with the acceptance of captive bred lion shooting. [I will] have no choice but to resign as an honorary life member should the principle of fair chase hunting be disregarded in favor of the lion debacle and there are many like-minded members who will also be put before this choice!

    [Once] we allow hunting to become amoral we are transgressing the self-imposed boundary between man and wild animals which stops hunting to be hunting. Once we allow material gain to supersede moral values, our world in general and hunting in particular is doomed. Prudent decisions alone, e.g. captive bred lion execution and line breeding of mutants, will kill hunting!

    Our only chance to safeguard hunting as a noble tradition and way of life is to convince the majority of the populace that our activities have a moral foundation. The breeding of lions in captivity as well as the line breeding of mutants and recessive genes for execution has and will never have a place in the sphere of true fair chase hunting. It has no moral base, no conscience and is purely based on materialistic considerations.

    Author: Ronnie Rowland (edited by Gerhard R Damm)
     

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