Jackal Trophy Fees

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Skyline, Jun 24, 2009.

  1. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    As I was reading the hyena thread it reminded me of the current trend in charging an absurd amount for jackal trophy fees. Considering most ranchers shoot them on sight and routinely try to rid themselves of as many as possible, I have to snort when I see the trophy fees being attached to the shooting of jackals. Many are in the $100-$200 range.

    Personally I think this is nothing more than a money grab in the trophy fee department. If operators want to charge a skinning/handling fee as per other trophies that is fine, but in my view the trophy fees being charged for a 'varmint' are unjustified. It would be exactly the same thing if I was to charge a trophy fee on every coyote shot by deer or bear hunters where I live.

    I wouldn't dream of doing it and hunters would shake their head in disbelief if I tried it. In the 'olden days' jackals and baboons were FREE..............what caused the change?

    Perhaps there are reasons for this that I am not aware of. I hope there are some good ones, because I just don't see any justiable reason for it.
     
  2. Gerhard

    Gerhard AH Veteran

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    If an outfitter is hunting on a lot of different concessions it sometimes happen that the property owner charges the outfitter for animals that is classified as vermin.

    But its upto the outfitter what he want the final trophy fee to be.

    I did a lot of predator calling where jackal were damage causing animals and on some game ranches the owner wanted to charge me for the jackal as well.

    Obviously I never called jackal on these properties....
     
  3. AFRIVENTURE

    AFRIVENTURE AH Member

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    Why I charge a trophy fee for Jackal and Baboon on my price list is this:

    I have been actively hunting for over 21 years now and these animals were free of charge for many years and clients took them in passing by or when encountered.

    Over the last few years though a lot of clients put these animals on their to hunt list, and insist that time is spent looking for these animals - Time = Money, remember this is a business, I cannot run after a animal for days
    (and nights) that I don't make money on.

    I have had guys that mainly want to hunt these so called "vermin" animals, how is this for a wish list - Bushbuck, Jackal, Porcupine, Caracal, Baboon, Vervet monkey ( I actually did this hunt with a client to be nice!!!) Needless to say, this was the last time I did not charge for these animals!!:beatingdeadhorse:

    Also the amount and cost of permits and paperwork with primates for export etc. is something very few people know of - even separate crating is required.

    Lastly I still have these animals on my price list just for above mentioned clients so they know before booking, however I don't charge clients that shoot these animals in passing by if no paperwork/permits are involved.
     
  4. ndsnowman

    ndsnowman New Member

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    When I hunted Namibia in 2007, my PH told me that he would only charge me the trophy fees on jackals that I MISSED.
     
  5. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    This brings up another item that is the 'norm' in a lot of African hunting, expecially southern Africa, and that is the dependance on profits from jacked up trophy fees. The landowner sets a list of fees for game that the safari operator has to pay for each animal his clients kill and then the operator tacks on an extra percentage for profit over and above the daily rates being charged. Lets face it, operators are happiest with clients that want to take a lot of game as it boosts profits. This is not the norm with most North American hunting. The hunt cost is the price of the hunt. Period.

    A few exceptions exist with some hunts such as grizzly, where some outfitters offer split hunt price......a set fee for the hunt itself, followed by a harvest fee when successful, as opposed to charging the full amount up front successful or not. Texas is another exception but then there are a lot of parallels on how things function in Texas and southern Africa with the proliferation of high-fenced operations.

    In general the fees for licences on free range hunts in North America, and trophy fees where applicable, are government tariffs that go to the government and are not a source of added revenue for the operator.

    This of course all has a lot to do with the 'ownership' of game on private property and the fact that many operators in southern Africa routinely buy animals in auctions and release them for their clients to hunt.

    In any event I have always considered the incidental taking of coyotes and wolves by hunters I guide to be a positive thing that I want to encourage, hence I would never try and charge a trophy fee.

    AFRIVENTURE..............I guess it takes all kinds, but I would imagine there aren't too many out there spending the money to go hunting in South Africa and only want to take jackals and porcupines. I know there are 'collectors' but I should think it would be a small percentage that cause you this kind of grief?

    I think that a landowner who would normally shoot a jackal on site as an unwanted pest and leave it lay, but expects to charge the safari operator a fee and hence the visiting hunter a fee, has lost sight of the big picture. To me personally it bespeaks of 'nickel and diming' the goose that lays the golden egg.
     
  6. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    SKYLINE I must respectfully disagree on the basis of North America, and Africa are two different places with costs for each that are not exactly the same. You are correct that RSA, and TEXAS have some similarities, and because the game is owned, it has a price no matter if you hunt it or buy it, and a profit is indicated to the owner of that livestock, and the PH he sells it to is intitaled to a profit on what he buys in your behalf as well. Not all of Africa is the same, but all animals in Africa belong to someone, be it the land owner or the government who sells the quotas to the outfitters.

    Many of the safaris I've been on do not charge for things like Jackel, but it is not because they don't want to make money, but because the jackels do a lot of damage in their areas where their clients do a lot of bird hunting, or where their concessions have large populations of deiker and dik dik which is a cash crop for their business. Then there is another reason they don't charge for the jackels, the same as the reason a lot of ranchers don't charge for Coyotes, the mistaken idea that somehow these animals have no value to the invironment and/or they simply don't like them.

    What is the difference between booking a hunt for Griz, and only chargeing more if a bear is taken, and charging one flat fee that covers your cost and profit, whether the client gets a bear or not?

    Charging the full price for Griz hunt regardless of bag, seems more price gouging than the guy that covers his expences, and wear and tear on his equipment, and only charges the client full price if he bags. sounds like a deal to me.

    Personally I like the African way because you know what the cost of the hunt is, and the trophy fees are paid only if you bag that particular animal. In the High fence operations, the game is owned, and is no different from his cattle, if you get one you are going to pay for it, if you don't get one you don't. Even in the other areas than RSA where the hunting is done on open range, where the animals belong to the government, the quotas are not free to the outfitter, he buys those permits at auction, and pays for his right to hunt certain areas. He has to set daily rates to cover his expences of running camps, and supplies, and Gas for his vehicles, whether you collect even one animal or not. NOW, when you use up one of his permits it is gone, and he can't use it again, but he has already paid for that permit. Certainly he will stack on a profit on each permit. This is no different from a store owner chargeing a prifit for his stock, that is how he makes his living!

    The other thing is in North America, the client rarely hunts more than one animal on a guided hunt, so all resourses can be utilized in the effort in collecting that one animal. The African outfitter has to work in a different way for each animal you want. His costs are usually including YOUR license, and Gun permits, and the procurement of all permits, and licenses tying up his funds for as much as a yrs before you show up. In North America, the client is responcible for his license, and getting his guns into your country if he is alian. The not paying for a trophy till you take it, is an incentive to find that trophy, where in North America the outfitter has his money no matter how hard. or how little he works, or whether the client gets a shot, or even a sighting of the "ONE" animal he has booked for.

    I think there is something to be said for both systems, and the nearest thing we have to the African game department wise,system is ALASKA, where you may take any animal of equal value, or less on any type of Non resident license! As you said Texas, and many other states have the OWNED animals which are sold as killed. It all depends on what you want, if you consider a trophy fee too high, then simply forgo that animal as being too expensive! IMO, if a client considers the total safari or a Bear hunt value for money, who cares where the money goes?
     
  7. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Dugaboy...........not sure what you are disagreeing with. That is pretty much what I said. They are different and I specifically refered to southern Africa where high-fenced operations are the norm and the game is privately owned 'livestock', especially in South Africa. Nor did I suggest anything regarding the grizzly hunts other than that some outfitters do not charge a flat rate and instead have a 'trophy fee' when the bear is taken.

    Your remarks on jackals are exactly what I was commenting on from the beginning, as is your comparison to coyotes.........which is why I brought up the subject of trophy fees on jackals.

    Further more, your comments about prices for expenses and permits being used etc. ..............well I don't know any outfitter over here that gets everything for free and in truth it works exactly the same here in many parts of North America. Outfitters, especially in Canada are assigned limited quotas or allocations on big game animals in specific management units and guess what, once it is used it is gone..........what am I missing here? Last time I checked we have a host of fees for licences, leases, land use fees, grazing fees, taxes on camps and lodges, etc. etc., to pay to the government and that are passed on to the clients............the purchase price of the guiding territory/operation, annual liability/operating insurance, fuel, food, cost of infrastructure, vehicles, equipment, wages for employees, advertising and promotion, currency rates and exchange, etc., etc. all operating expenses that are passed on and taken into consideration when setting rates..............whether it is a daily rate plus additional funds added to landowner/government trophy fees as is the norm for many African hunts or a total hunt price as is the norm in N. A.

    I must assume you disagree with my comment about operators liking hunters with itchy trigger fingers............. I would suggest you read Afriventures comments as to why he has a trophy fee listed for jackal. It is what it is and the simple fact is that the operator makes a lot more profit off of a hunt with clients that like to pull the trigger.
     
  8. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Agree with you on most things, but I see no difference between a trophy fee for a Coyote, or Jackel and a Kudu, if it is more than the animal is worth to you, don't shoot it!

    I simply do not agree that making a profit off trophy fees since he had to buy that fee either from the gov, or a land owner! That is simply free interprise. I would think you set your prices to cover your costs, plus a profit. I don't think you would do well if you depended on tips for the profit end of your business! Excuse me but I simply do not see the problem. The mark up is ligit, no matter where it is applied, as long as it is fine with the client. If every hunter you book can shoot several animals with no fee, then in my view that would be very disruptive to your opperation!

    However, Skyline I'm not in your business, and far be it from me to assume to tell you how to run that business, and that was not my meaning at all. I was just woundering why you were so upset about a trophy fee on any animal listed by a outfiter, or PH, since it is not mandetory that he shoot everything you list. I would think you, of all people would understand why the trophy fee system is part of the PH/outfitter's profit margin! :confused:
     
  9. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    I give up.......we are not communicating, it is clear. No further comment. Have a good day.
     
  10. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Sky, I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, that was not my intention! I just wanted to know why you had a problem with the trophy fee on a jackel and not on other animals!

    ............ Good day, and good hunting!:headscratch:
     
  11. Safari Chick

    Safari Chick AH Veteran

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    Skyline, I think it's pretty ridiculous too! They're vermin! Several years ago. I went with my father on a safari in RSA and I think he shot two or maybe three jackals and we just left the carcasses in the bush. At that time it was really shoot on sight, not a "trophy" of any sort, just a pest. So why the big shift in thinking? I really believe the trophy fee thing is quite simply a sign of the times, the demand for hunting in Africa blew up in the last decade and it's just what the market will bear. I probably should have said what the market "would" bear (past tense), because I also think those days are coming to a pretty abrupt end. For years, the business of hunting in Africa was so busy that they could demand those kinds of things of hunters without many of them thinking anything of it, but now outfitters are starting to get back to reality. I'll bet we'll start to see less outfitters who are asking a trophy fee for a flea ridden dog in short order.

    Anyway, I would venture to guess that there are PHs out there who still shoot jackals on sight if there is no client there with them.. would they do that with a Kudu or any other animal that is on their trophy fee list? I doubt it!
     
  12. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Dugaboy......no offence. I was obviously doing a poor job at communicating my thoughts the other day.

    Safari Chick................thank you. That sums it up nicely and is exactly how I feel about it as well.:)
     
  13. Frederik

    Frederik AH Enthusiast

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    I have not read trough all the posts above but will answer the jackal or vermin question.

    You will see that we have an asterix on our pricelist when it comes to Baboon, jackal and monkeys. The reason being that if you want to export it and youre hunting in the Limpopo province we have to buy the permit before your hunt in your name.

    So blame the paperwork and you will not be able to export the animals without that permit. If you are not exporting them its free, but we dont allow a hunter just to hunt the free vermin as that would not make any financial sense to us.

    As for adding on money to the prices on top of the owners prices for game its a business. They are the car manufacturers/factories and we are the car sales floor for a simple explanation. The shop floor needs to pay rent marketing and staff trough the whole year. As simple as that.
     
  14. Gerhard

    Gerhard AH Veteran

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    Frederik,

    Correct me if I am wrong.

    But all primates are included in CITES I...
     
  15. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    No Gerhard all primates are on cities 2 but never the less if we shoot a primate without a permit we are actually breaking the law not to be a pain but it's the law and we have to deal with it unfortunately we don't make the rules the government does and that is the reality. As for the whole Jackal thing first of all we need to remember that there is a reason that this animal was put on the earth and while a lot of people would still think of them as just vermin I would say take a closer look at what the Jackal actually does in nature.

    Jackals don’t just kill young animals they also take out the old and sick and dispose of rotting carcases so this helps to keep the environment healthy and clean, Hyenas do the same thing and there is no problem with them having a price tag? I would like to tell you about an interesting observation that I had, if you shoot a lot of Jackals every year you actually promote the population to grow much the same as with birds and that leads to more young animals taken every year and a loss of money. I saw this on my Game farm where we don’t shoot Jackal regularly and since we stopped killing them as vermin we don’t have a problem any more because the resident ones are territorial and they keep others out. But this is not an exact science just an observation and something an old game ranger told me. I think it is our responsibility as hunters to always look at the impact that we have on nature and how we can improve on where others went wrong. Sorry to put it this way don’t mean to sound green but as a person that first and foremost loves nature I think it is my obligation to look at this one from a conservation point as well. But the trick in the whole thing is to keep your client happy as well so here is where I stand on this one.

    If a client wants to shoot a Jackal by all means yes but in moderation.
     
  16. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Louis...........that seems like a sensible approach to me.
     
  17. Wendell Reich

    Wendell Reich New Member

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    Supply and demand. People want them.
     
  18. billrquimby

    billrquimby AH Veteran

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    Among most African outfitters I know, daily rates cover their time (or their hired PH's time) and most other costs. The cost of animals taken or lost are covered by trophy fees, which include a markup that allows only a small profit.

    What do you do when a client books a hunt and announces when he arrives that he wants only a kudu (or whatever) of a certain size and will shoot no other animal? Do you send him away because he won't buy a long list of other animals?

    Bill Quimby
     
  19. batsaf

    batsaf New Member

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    If the outfitter made you pay for a Jackal he had a reason...
     
  20. Big5

    Big5 AH Enthusiast

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    Bill, I think your post was a very appropriate response to the earlier post which it refers to. For whatever it's worth that's certainly the way I've always looked at it too.
     

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