Is the PH legally required to be in hide in South Africa?

Discussion in 'Bowhunting Africa' started by TOM, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    I'm in a debate about this on an archery website. Is it legally required for the PH to be with you in the blind? I've heard and read about it both ways. Some PH's stay with the hunter the entire time in the blind, others just drop them off with a radio and pick them up later.

    Does anyone know the answer? How about our resident PH's? Spiral Horn?

    :confused::confused::confused::confused:
  2. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Well Tom the simple answer to your question is yes, it is required that you will be accompanied by a licensed PH at all times during the physical hunting of an animal. This is a very interesting topic and most of the time comes down to the ethics of your Outfitter and his professional courtesy, it is a very difficult thing to monitor and control because the wildlife officers can’t baby-sit everyone and make sure that they stick to the rules. If it was not necessary for a PH to accompany a client for the whole duration of his hunt why would you pay the day fees of between $350 and $450 a day?
  3. Gerhard

    Gerhard AH Veteran

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    Louis is 100 percent correct.

    A international hunter is required by law to be accompanied while hunting.
  4. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    Thanks guys. That's what i thought. I just don't understand how clients are left alone then. It seems to be quite common.

    I can see both sides, i might want to be alone for a little while in the hide, but more often than not, i like having the PH there to talk with, hang out, and even learn things about Africa.
  5. Gerhard

    Gerhard AH Veteran

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    Tom,

    The problem for an Outfitter when it comes to bow hunting is that he normally hunts with 4 to 6 clients at a time.

    He might have one permanent PH working for him that may accompany the hunters or not.

    The fun starts when you have 6 hunters in 4 different locations all over the concession and they start shooting animals. Who is going to recover them....?

    But then the client also do not know a lot about trophy judging so he might shoot early in stead of waiting for the right animal...

    It all a big juggling act for the Outfitter.
  6. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    I can see several issues with that.

    1. Client alone shoots pregnant female animal or non-trophy. Both parties lose.

    2. Client shoots and wounds animal. PH doesn't exactly know where the hit was and only a rough idea of where to start looking for spoor.

    3. Client is harmed by something; snake, animal, etc. This could get the PH in hot water quickly.

    4. Maybe worst of all = Client spends his hard earned money to hire a PH who does not give him personal attention or service. Client leaves with a bad experience and thus the Outfitter gets a bad name.
  7. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Yes Tom you are 100% right on your comments and if we can sum it up in short, it is called poor client service and a lack of resources.
  8. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Yeah , I agree. But, first and foremost , how does a client from another country ID whether the game is number one the right specie and also how does he determine the sex of the animal. A lot of our animals both the sexes carry horns. Also , what is a good trophy sized animal. PH NEEDS TO BE WITH HIS CLIENT NO MATTER WHAT!!!
  9. zimfrosty

    zimfrosty AH Member

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    I agree with KMG and Spiral Horn. It boils down to customer service. Leaving a client alone in a hide or Blind certainly doesnt meet service standards. In the case of operators having several clients at the same time, I still believe that the EACH client is entitled to the service that they are paying for. PHs must be in a position to talk clients through the shot, assist with Trophy assessment, judge the shot etc etc.
  10. ibie

    ibie AH Veteran

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    that is all very very true
  11. Bushbuck

    Bushbuck AH Enthusiast

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    I can understand someone wanting to have a PH in the blind with them in Africa. I suggest if that is what you are looking for, you discuss this with your PH prior to booking your trip.
    I have had a PH accompany me on Big Five hunts and on a Giraffe hunt. All were a very good time. I will say however I have been on maybe 20 safaris where I have hunted alone. I dont remember ever having a PH sit with me in a treestand, pit or elevated blind, or stalking for plains game. I would not want it any other way. I enjoy the time alone hunting in the wild.
    It is fun to have a partner when hunting elk, or turkey, or ratteling in a deer, but those are all interactive hunts. I see nothing wrong with hunting alone, and I certainly would not call a PH a bad outfitter for letting me do so. Actually if the PH forced me to sit with someone else all day I would most likely choose another outfitter.
    I really think it depends on what you are looking for and expecting out of your hunt.
  12. johnb

    johnb New Member

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    Yes, 100%, Hunting is a "Service" Business. I hunt either 1x1 or 2x1 - No other way!. Also if you have more clients on a hunt , hire extra Ph's , it is only fair to the client , business etc..
  13. jeff

    jeff AH Senior Member

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    I have done it both ways and have really enjoyed myself with my time alone.If your going to sit alone you owe it to yourself and everyone else to do your homework on trophy judging. Some PHs try to talk you into shooting extra animals in the heat of the moment, and have even wanted me to take what I thought were marginal shots.Remember if you wound somthing it costs you not the PH. They want you to take animals thats how make their money.Other PHs were fine with no pressure
  14. henrygriffiths

    henrygriffiths AH Veteran

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    Its required that the PH be with the client while hunting, but I have clients thats been to Africa more times than they can count and have more hunting experience than most young SA PH's and they have taken several trophies on their own all over the world!

    I believe that an outfitter should only leave a hunter on his own if he has enough experience and knows the hunter personally.

    Yes the hunter is paying for the service of a PH but I know when I go hunting for my self I like to be on my own. And if the clients ask to go to the blind on his own and like I mentioned above I know him personally and he has enough experience I will definitely consider it.
  15. hunting

    hunting AH Enthusiast

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    This is a old thread but always a good one, the South African law states clearly the ph must be with the hunter ( client ) at all times when hunting. If anything go wrong during a hunt and the ph is or was not with the hunter you the ph will stand trail and you will have to explain . I had to explain i know.
    I was hunting with a group from Spain when the father wounded a warthog we were sitting in a blind with the family.
    Myself, the father and a guide working for nature conservation followed the wounded warthog we left the mother and two girls behind in the blind very safe or so i thought. It was a few minutes later when i heard a shot. I was about 75 yards away from the blind , i turn and rush over to the blind only to find a dead Sable bull next to the waterhole. My heart ship several beats i had no permit to hunt Sable, i then contact nature conservation as i was hunting a reserve then came all the explaining not one day but a number of days explaining. At the end of it all the father had to pay just more than 8000 euro ( about 7 years back ) he could not take anything no horns no skin no nothing only a picture and for me a lesson i learn and will never forget. Sorry guys but as long as you hunt with me you WILL have a PH with you when hunting no matter how many times you did hunt the world.
    Johan
  16. johnb

    johnb New Member

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    PH in Hide..

    I will not leave a client on his own in a hide without a ph pointing out trophy quality game..and assisting the client. The client pays trophy prices and are therefore entitled to hunt good trophies. It is not just the trophy at stake here, but also the safety and comfort of the client. The client's priorities come first etc.
    :)
  17. MarvelAfrica

    MarvelAfrica AH Senior Member

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    This is directly from the Limpopo hunting ordinanace found on the PHASA website.

    Hunting of wild and alien animals by clients
    50. (1) A client may hunt a wild or alien animal only –
    (a) if the hunt has been organised by a hunting-outfitter; and
    (b) under the supervision of a professional hunter.

    So yes, the PH has to be supervising the hunt.
  18. AZ~Rich

    AZ~Rich AH Member

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    All good points that have been made and it is stated in the bylaws. Of course, real life decisions around this are going to vary by individual preference and comfort levels of both PH and client. Personally, I really enjoy being a solitary hunter, especially when hunting from a blind and consider myself capable of making the right decisions when it comes to chosing what and what not to shoot. With all wildlife I generally do my homework x10 and have studied African game species for a whole lot of years in order to feel the level of confidence knowing what I am seeing in the wild. That may come from my lifelong interest, a wildlife biology degree, experience working in a state game department, taxidermy interest and a keen eye for scanning for individual trophy quality.

    That being said, I can also easily see where having a host PH present will enhance the experience for many hunters who are unfamiliar with the various African species, dangers and unique pitfalls. Not to mention clients who are simply less competent or inexperienced as hunters, who have the potential for making major mistakes like the sable case stated above.

    Given the reality of most PHs not being able to be everywhere at once, I would hope that good decisions will continue to be made by them regarding which of their clients are capable enough to be left in a blind unattended vs. those who should not/never be. I imagine having good indepth discussions with your clients prior will help to sort out most of these types of decisions.

    If my PH insists on his being with me 100% of the time, I would never fault that kind of decision in light of the existing law, but I would tend to look elsewhere for someone who has a little less of an aversion to perceived liabilty risk the next time around.

    Just being alive is a risk...I beleive one should live it to the fullest when you can.
  19. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Refresher course.
  20. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    LEAVING A CLIENT IN A BLIND ALONE.......... A big no no in my book, apart from it being ilegal it is just silly no matter what the experience level is, leagality seems to be a tecnichality these days....

    Large outfitting companies use it as a mass hunt selling tool, 300 x 1 client, 225x 2 clients 175x 3 clients, 100 x 4 clients with one PH between them..... Silly and wrong...

    Honestly why dont we just open our lodges, give our vehicles and let everyone do what they like.. :) and then we can say that we had 200 clients a season.....

    My best always.

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