Is it taboo to hunt White Lion

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Rocco, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I'm sure it isn't what you meant to say but working on your stated logic it'd be acceptable to put the lion in a crush so the 'hunter' could walk up to it in complete safety and pop it in the forehead with a humane killer and then put the mount in his trophy room to brag to his friends about......

    That might be your idea of sport mate but it sure as hell ain't mine! :(
     
  2. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    I am not talking Cows and Chickens. A fur bearer is a fur bearer is a fur bearer. And yes many of those ranch raised foxed end up on the Taxidermists table.

    The only thing I really see being argued here is whether we should call this "hunting". Here is the definition of hunt form the dictionary:
    hunt (hnt)
    v. huntï½·ed, huntï½·ing, hunts
    v.tr.
    1. To pursue (game) for food or sport.
    2. To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
    3. To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
    4. To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
    5. To seek out; search for.
    6. To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away: hunted the newcomers out of town.
    v.intr.
    1. To pursue game.
    2. To make a search; seek.
    3. Aerospace
    a. To yaw back and forth about a flight path, as if seeking a new direction or another angle of attack. Used of an aircraft, rocket, or space vehicle.
    b. To rotate up and down or back and forth without being deflected by the pilot. Used of a control surface or a rocket motor in gimbals.
    4. Engineering
    a. To oscillate about a selected value. Used of a machine, instrument, or system.
    b. To swing back and forth; oscillate. Used of an indicator on a display or instrument panel.
    n.
    1. The act or sport of hunting: an enthusiast for the hunt.
    2.
    a. A hunting expedition or outing, usually with horses and hounds.
    b. Those taking part in such an expedition or outing.
    3. A diligent search or pursuit

    Clearly by any means the killing of a Lion constitutes a hunt. The use of the word is correct. Is it sporting?

    sporting [ˈspɔːtɪŋ]
    adj
    1. (General Sporting Terms) (prenominal) of, relating to, or used or engaged in a sport or sports several sporting interests
    2. (General Sporting Terms) relating or conforming to sportsmanship; fair
    3. (Group Games / Gambling, except Cards) of, relating to, or characterized by an interest in gambling
    4. willing to take a risk
    sportingly adv

    This part is debatable and in some cases true and others not even close. However whatever terminology it still all comes down to the question of whether it is ethical.

    ethï½·iï½·cal (th-kl)
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, or dealing with ethics.
    2. Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession. See Synonyms at moral.

    If raising a Fox simply to kill it for its hide is ethical then that same principle must apply to other fur bearers as well, including Lion. Death by bullet or death by AOE and the location of the kill, in a small pen or a large one full of trees etc are the only real differences.

    Like it or not and call it what you will, the act of killing a pen raised Lion is no different than any other animal raised solely for its hide. To that end, killing a lion in a 6'x6' cage is no less moral than killing a wild Lion. It is, by definition, simply not sporting which seems to be the arguement here. Killing a Lion in a 6'x6' cage is, by definition, not hunting either but once released into a large enough enclosure to require "Pursuit" then it becomes, by definition, hunting. It should not be confused with sport hunting in which both parties have an equal chance of success but then again how many Blesbok truly have a chance once the hunter decides on a particular trophy, roughy the same as pen raised lions, none whether today or tomorrow they will lose. But that is another topic all together.
     
  3. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    This post rolled over to a new page and I didnt see it before posting. I agree the crush would not be sporting or hunting but it would a perfectly acceptable way to dispatch a pen raised fur bearer (Lion) to harvest its pelt. Whatevet the guy who pulled the trigger wants to tell his buddies is irrelevant, there are plenty of reproduction antlers out there that can be bought and bragged about. Those who would do this are simply liars and braggarts, which has nothing to do with whether or not the killing of the lion was moral or ethical.
     
  4. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    If you think that, not only are not a true hunter, you're a person that's in need of serious psychiatric help because you're obviously unable to separate right from wrong.

    That has to be one of the most morally repugnant statements I've heard in my entire life & (IMO) you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
     
  5. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    I am not in the least bit ashamed. I make no claim that would be sporting or even hunting for that matter simply that as long as the pen raised animal is dispatched cleanly then the harvest of his fur is ethical from a ranching standpoint.

    You seem unwilling to differentiate sport hunting from other forms of acceptable game use. Shooting a pen raised Lion in any circumstances may not appeal to you but that does not make it wrong.

    There are 2 issues here:
    1) is the raising and killing of Lion for their hides moral and ethical? If so what is an acceptable method to dispatch these Lions?
    2) is it hunting if we release them and then shoot them?

    When we blur the lines and try to cover everything with the umbrella of hunting we lose track of the basic actions that are being performed.

    It is clear that this debate sparks alot of emotion in you and as such it is diffucult to see things objectively. Like anyone with radical views I am sure that nothing can be stated that will in any way sway you from attempting to force your ideals on others.

    My best to you.
     
  6. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    The antihunters and animal rights people have zero desire to allow hunting. They don't care about conservation. It's beyond them to understand hunting...they are brainwashed and irrational. When someone tells me they are leaving a smaller footprint on the planet earth by being a vegetarian. Especially if they go that extra step and tell you are living a unhealthy life and causing unwreckable damage by eating meat....WHAT AS A HUNTER ARE YOU GOING TO DO? I say nothing, these people usually can't be helped to rational thinking.:banghead:
     
  7. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Diamondhitch

    It's not me that's "unwilling to differentiate sport hunting from other forms of acceptable game use" It's you....... You're the one that can't see the difference.

    I'm sure the antis will be rubbing their hands with glee over your comment of "To that end, killing a lion in a 6'x6' cage is no less moral than killing a wild Lion"

    Un-fucking-believable!
     
  8. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    WOW! did Rocco open a can of worms or what. I have read through the post several times and can see where everyone is coming from on there point. My friend in Africa as you can see from his email doesn't care for fenced lion hunts as well but I think Diamondhitch is dead on with his post but to add one more point and I may have missed it somewhere else is cost yes I would love to hunt a wild free range lion BUT I'm not one of those luccky people that has super deep pockets at this very minute I am on a Job out of state for 32 day to make extra money so I can take the wife and myself back to Africa on vacation now a wild African Lion hunt will normaly run 14-21 day at 1400-2000 dollars aday for daily fees and god only know how hi the trophy fee is going to be then add tips for all of the staff that has to be used to run this hunt not including PH. a hunt of this type can run 50,000 or 60,000 Thousand dollars now we have seen in Great Deals the White lion hunt for 12,000-14,000 thousand so I don't think anyone is trying to full us into thinking this is a 50,000 dollar hunt and I myself can come up with 12-14 thousand easier then 50,000. The way I see it is if you are willing to get in the fenced aera with a lion then the danger is there no I wouldn't shoot one in a 6x6 cage but if you are in a big enough fenced aera that the lion can back track and come in from behind much like I've seen grizzley do in Alaska then the danger is there the risk of losing life is there which by the way I've never heard of a hunter getting attacked in a hide while hunting over bait and waiting for the unknowing lion to come in and eat.
     
  9. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Next please!
    My best!
     
  10. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    I just have to join in the fray.
    Since Steve is having way too much fun doing a Malema imitation. :)

    Review these pictures for marked similarities. Both appear to have agendas, are outspoken, etc.
    Appear to be of the same species "Homo Sapiens Stiritup Domesticus"

    View attachment 13027

    View attachment 13028


    Where does the assumption/conclusion come from that all the outfitters are being fraudulent or deceptive at all?
    Perhaps this hinges on a personal definition of hunting: "really are..."

    For the entertainment of the semantics argument:
    The legal definition where I come from:

    (o) Hunt means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to a subject animal,

    (i) shoot at, harass or worry,

    (ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,

    (iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,

    (iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or

    (v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person is so hunting.


    Reads like the folks shooting at, harassing , chasing and pursuing these Lions are actually hunting to me.
    Now, the kind of hunting you might like to participate in or support?


    Perhaps fraud or deception is a general concern that overseas hunters have about any outfitter. Is
    Is the hunter being honest about their expectations of the hunt they are expecting?
    Did the hunter actually ask some questions and do some research or just fall in with the general mystical story of a hunt because they wanted to.



    Here is another comparison opportunity for you of two lion hunt videos that are very popular.
    The hunt in each is a Large entourage out chasing harassing and worrying while attempting to kill said animals.
    One is apparently "Wild" and the other "Canned". (My personal conclusion to which you may disagree)

    Given that the argument being postulated by Shakari is that Canned hunting provides fodder for the anti hunters:
    Which if these two videos do you think is more offensive and distasteful to the Anti Hunter??






    Conclusion: Lion gets killed on video.
    I think that both are just as offensive to the Anti hunter.


    On the note of being open and honest.


    "Lion hunting will never be cheap for a client, nor should it be because, if it were, we would lose too many lions an d I believe lions are far more important than client's trophy rooms. Lion management is far from an exact science and the variables, such as when theory comes into conflict with practicalities, will from time to time manifest themselves but, despite that, we can and must take a responsible
    attitude towards managing our wild lion populations so that they will thrive and grow
    . If we do not then they will surely decline and perish."
    Ethical Lion Management in the 21st - Shakari


    Along your line of reasoning about "losing too many Lions". Perhaps RSA Lions are removing the hunting pressure on "Wild" Lions (an interesting conservation benefit posited by Aaron Nielson, an addicted Lion hunter himself) Seems to make some sense to me.

    Apparently the market forces Shakari hopes would control or reduce Lion hunting access ("Lions hunts should not be cheap") is exactly what created the issue in the first place. The promotion of Lion hunting became so effective it proceeded to create such demand that the price of hunting rose to such an extent that a market opened up for these RSA hunts. No one thought of that result of the marketing efforts to the baby boomers did they?!


    As part of a "responsible attitude regarding our Wild Lion management" perhaps we should ban baited Lion hunts altogether in Africa. Given that many of the Wild Lions are just habituated to constant/consistent feeding by humans (outfitter) and then "hunted" over yet another bait at feeding time by unsuspecting hunters.
    Hunting reports where the hunter comes upon the Gemsbok carcass, apparently a Lion kill, when actually it was a Lion feeding site where the camp worker had shot and dragged a Gemsbok. All done in order to keep the Lion pride fed and content so that they remained on the concession until the unsuspecting hunter was able to hunt his Wild Lion.
    Is this a deceptive practice or just part of the story of modern hunting in Africa?


    Of course I am not in favour of banning hunting altogether. I am in favour of supporting the much more sporting and difficult Walk and Stalk/ tracking style of hunt in the name of proper management and conservation.
    This hunt would restrict the number of hunters willing to work that hard and also provide the opportunity for the Lion to escape the concession and end the hunt. True fair chase.
    It is easy to manage so the outfitter still makes money. Charge high minimum day rates and a pittance for a trophy fee. The Lion wins the Outfitter wins and the hunters support Wild Lion conservation while having a very challenging hunt. You also don't have to torture hunters with stinky carcasses and hot blinds.

    Can you imagine the excitement level of this hunt when you follow that track into some long grass or a thicket?

    (An egregious generalization of all hunts that works so well in this type of argument from both sides of the coin, I just had to) :)


    As Jaco just said in the middle of me writing this..... NEXT! :)
     
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  11. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    LOL:laughing: Welcome BRICKBURN loved that youtube clip.
     
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  12. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Sorry brickburn, very well thought and put, thanks!

    My best.


    NEXT!
     
  13. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    had to laugh when i looked at the bottom of the page where it has similar threads. plenty to choose from and all with similar arguments going on.....after some thought i think i have solved the problem :acclaim:. lion breeding in sa should be increased dramatically, and driven lion shooting with 20 or 30 lions in a 1000 acre enclosure with thickets and gulleys offered, in the same way driven boar are shot in europe. this would lead to some interesting situations and a medevac chopper would be on standby at all times. with 5 shooters max and no observers/assistants i think this would be sporting for them as well as the lions. only double rifles and no scopes would be allowed. :heh:
     
  14. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I haven't had time to read/reply to the last few posts but if you want offensive canned lion shoots, try this:



    There's plenty more out there & many from the same bunch of comedians and I simply fail to understand how anyone can call such an abortion, fair, ethical or honourable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2014
  15. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Sounds interesting!
     
  16. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Steve I did not view it. I appreciate the effort. I can not bring myself to see these videos.
    There are plenty of offensive videos out their for sure.
     
  17. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I am thoroughly sick of this thread, but I also can't accept the moral equivelency arguement. If killing was just killing, there would be no hunting - just killing. I suppose the squeamish could call it shooting, but in the end it would be just killing. I believe in most cases, hunting creates an economic incentive to protect wild game, or to create environments where wild game can flourish in large protected environments. Put and take killing - whether lions, buffalo, or a carefully positioned sable does neither of these things. It is merely a mechanism for the less scrupulous (perhaps morally deficient?) to make money on the margins of what is otherwise a noble sport. Indeed, were I to try and continue this moral anology, those who provide these animals for killing are engaged in a form of prostitution, and those who support it with their dollars are little more than Johns. Not a group who I care to be forced to include in my defence of our sport.
     
  18. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Finally made it back and will try to catch up with a quick(ish) reply.

    I take Bobpuckett's point about money but as I see it, the lion in the fenced area he's talking about hunting, would need to have been in that area for several months if he's to know the escape routes etc & for it to be a fair chase hunt.

    As previously mentioned, the landowner can't afford for the lion to be self sustaining for that period of time (which is why the lion breeders assoc threatened to sue the minister) and therefore the lion is a stranger to the area and therefore, it's not a fair chase hunt. If it's not a fair chase hunt then it shouldn't be allowed to happen and the fact that it's the only lion hunt a client can afford is neither here nor there. As I see it, the ethics of the hunt & the long term survival & continuance of our sport and the game must take precedence over the fact that a client simply wants a lion in his trophy room.

    Brickburn

    Hey man, comparing me to that bastard Malema really is insulting. That man wants to destroy the whole of South Africa and I only want to destroy the captive lion breeding industry because I think if it isn't destroyed, real African sport hunting will be!

    I haven't had time to load & view the vids but have no doubt most show how unethical and shameful captive/canned lion shooting really is. I have to say that I reckon you-tube is probably the second biggest threat that our sport faces today...... quite why anyone chooses to post their hunting videos there I'll never know....... damn, I don't even understand why so many hunters go for all that high fiving and adolescent cheer leader squealing we see on it either. LOL!

    I really fail to understand how anyone, whether seller or buyer can believe those silly so called hunts are even a single percent of the experience of a truly wild lion hunt is and I guess it maybe shows how dumb some people, who must be reasonably intelligent in their field of normal operations are when it comes to anything in Africa...... just look at the guy who bowshoots the drugged lion in the video I posted. He must be fairly wealthy to afford what he's doing but he very obviously doesn't even begin to know which way is up. In fact, he looks almost as dopey as the poor bloody lion....... the term that springs to mind is mucking foron! (did I spell that right? LOL!)

    I don't agree with AN on his attitude to captive lion breeding and as far as I'm concerned, that attitude just panders to those who want a lion but can't afford one. As I see it, if they can't afford a wild lion hunt then they simply have to do without it. Nor do I go for the idea that it takes pressure off of wild lions because those shooting captive bred lions can't afford a wild lion hunt anyway. It will make more cheap lions available and no doubt that would make some wannabe lion hunters happy but it won't affect the wild lion population at all. If we want to take care of our wild lion populations, the only way to do it is to manage them properly and that takes money and pushes the price of wild lion hunting up and as I see it, if that what it takes then so be it........ I would like to have a mid 1960s Mercedes SL & Brough Superior in my garage and a Westley Richards drop lock double in my gun safe but I don't have the money to afford them and so live without them. Lion hunters should face & accept the same situation.

    I should say I'm pleased to have my words quoted... Thanks!

    Spike,

    Driven lions..... now there's a thought and it made me hoot with laughter. Thanks for that!

    Red Leg,

    Very well put!
     
  19. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Sorry guys

    Once again please tell me what is the difference between a Kudu bull or Impala or a truck load of Oryx, Blesbuck,Wildebeest bought on an auction a week before the clients come into camp, I see no difference as this is the way the large operators work in SA and in many cases on less than 3 000 hectares??

    What makes a lion that was bred to be shot so much different than the kudu?

    Please excuse the brutal honesty.....

    I know of properties 15 000 hectares ++ in size with constant numbers of lion, I just don't get it.

    I will say again I am not a fan of either Lion hunting method wild or ranch, I just do not see the difference between it and a kudu, especially when wacking a kudu bull on a water hole or off the back of a truck what is so sporting about that??

    Stating that all Lion operations shoot drugged cats is ignorant to say the least, Also please Hugo Ras is supposed to be in prison, so showing his crap is really not compareable to what the industry norm is.

    I for one would not be dissapointed if I never hunted Lion, but thats just me.

    But C'mon lets stop putting guys down that are doing it the legal way, whether you or I or we approve it's besides the point.

    Brickburn only saw the clips now, loved it the first is Randy Westraad (Kalahari) and the second in the Delta with Ronnie Craus hitting the charging male in the Delta, I see many comparisons and the result is the same.

    I honestly feel that this is getting a bit long in the tooth, So I do not prefer to hunt any lion, okay I've said it ...................NOW

    Next! :) :) :) :) :)
     
  20. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Jaco

    My first reply seems to have got lost so I'll try again.

    You and I must know different areas then because I don't think I know of many/any places that introduce and shoot many animals within a few days.

    You say (in your own words) that you "know of properties 15 000 hectares ++ in size with constant numbers of lion" - Was that where that lion that you have on your website was shot? - I'm not casting aspersions here but am interested and if so, I wonder how the landowner can afford for a "constant number of lions" to kill and eat his game for any significant period of time?

    You also say that to suggest "all Lion operations shoot drugged cats is ignorant to say the least". - No-one has said that at all. What has been said is that these animals are drugged at worst and don't know the area because they're new to it at best". - Any ignorance comes from your misquoting original statements.

    Rather than just continually posting "next" perhaps you could tell us where that research you mentioned comes from and maybe give us a link if there is one?

    Certainly all the research I've seen and specifically 'Lions & Leopards As Game Ranch Animals' by the Wildlife Branch of the SA Vet Assoc that has contributions from most if not all of the acknowledged and qualified experts in the field fail to go into the ethics of captive cats at all and as I see it, that's quite correct for a scientific paper....... It does however, mention that these species present different challenges compared to plains game species for the landowner etc.
     

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