Is it taboo to hunt White Lion

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Rocco, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Diamondhitch,

    As I'm the certain individual involved, I'd like to say that I don't think I slammed him about a stupid question at all........ The question was 'is there a taboo against hunting white lion?' - and I answered that question...... perhaps in a robust manner but no more than that & my answer was accurate, pertinent & to the point........ and my replies just might have saved him from wasting an awful lot of money whilst making a fool of himself in the eyes of real hunters....... to say nothing of possibly preventing him damaging the sport of real trophy hunting that we all hold so dear.

    What was stupid was the premise that he actually seemed to think he was going on a hunt rather than a shoot and I put him straight on that. Again, perhaps robustly but no more than that. Believe me, if someone asked the same question on AR, the replies would have been considerably ruder....... If you doubt that, I suggest you go over & ask the same question!

    Either way, p'raps it's a good thing that his trackers (if that's the right word :) ) aren't native Americans! LOL!

    All I did was tell the truth & explain the situation to those who either misunderstood or pretended to misunderstand the situation......... The truth is never a bad thing & all I did was tell the (perhaps inconvenient to some) truth.

    If you want to get your knickers in a twist or feel offended about something, it should be about those who tried to demean my comments in an attempt to deflect from the point in hand.
     
  2. Ethan

    Ethan AH Senior Member

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    Just got back last week from taking my 10-year on his first hunt. He shot 2 from natural concealment, and 2 from man made concealment. I have NO problem with that.

    Canned hunt versus free range is a very useful debate. I worry though that hunting is starting to vanish...more rapidly than I thought. Botswana is going away from hunting. Namibia is still pro-hunter, but I have heard is watching Botswana closely. Zimbabwe is scary to a lot of folks.

    I think we are need to have our opinions in the "pro-hunter" lobby - but take care not to give ammunition to the greenies out there who say "well even other hunters don't agree with you...." I've heard that more times than I care to remember.

    We are, I fear, a shrinking community. No need to turn on ourselves.
     
  3. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Ethan

    Congratulations on taking your young son on a hunt & I'm sure he'll treasure the memories of both the hunt and his time with Dad until the day he dies......

    However & I hope without offending sensibilities, as for taking care not to give ammunition to the greenies out there who say "well even other hunters don't agree with you.

    As I once told a President of PHASA who once suggested the same thing to me....... Bugger that or a lark. Silence implies assent and makes me party to what's going on. Don't try to make innocent people stop talking about it. Instead make guilty people stop doing it!

    It shouldn't be about turning on each other or sweeping the dirt under the carpet, it MUST be about making damn sure there is no dirt to sweep under the carpet.

    If our sport & industry isn't clean, upright, honest & honourable then we must make it so if we hope & expect it to continue to your son's generation & beyond.

    If our sport & industry is as it should be, your son will be able to take his son on safari and if not then he probably won't & think what that Grandson of yours will be missing.

    Food for thought huh?
     
  4. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    Heres something to chew on.

    Both Baiting and pursuit with hounds are widely debated and deemed unethical by both the antis and in some hunting circles. Where do you draw the line on ethical hunting/shooting?

    Thousands of cattle are raised every day simply to be killed for our use. Is killing them hunting, no but if someone wants to pay to shoot them would that be unethical? Why should cattle be any different than lions, they are both a renewable resource.

    If a person knows he is after a ranch raised Lion, I say no harm no foul. You get what you paid for and everyone walks away happy.
     
  5. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Quite honestly & IMO, if you can't see the difference between the two then you'll never understand my point & you're part of the problem & will never be part of the solution.

    As for hunting with hounds, I'm glad to say that PHASA have had a moratorium on that for donkey's years & I'm proud to say I voted for it.
     
  6. 35bore

    35bore AH Elite

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    Soooo, if we don't see thing's 100% the way you perceive things then, on a public forum we are 100% wrong.... hmmmm Guess I'm glad Bill Gates (or anyone else who looked at the 'positive' aspect's of any certain set of circumatances) didn't look at thing's that way, otherwise we would not have this opportunity to squabble amongst ourselves.. This is my last post on this thread, I will agree to disagree with you here, as I think of the hunting/financial aspects of such hunts as well. What it is bringing to the community and the wildlife in the area would speak for itself, because I assure anyone here that SA's government get's it's share and so do the local's. FYI, I would not hunt this way, but, I am not going to belittle someone on a forum for choosing to do so. I have said it many times before, ethic's are individual.
     
  7. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    I don't see it like that at all but I do see the larger picture and believe that the shooting of captive bred lions in unfair situations is not only morally reprehensible it also gives ammunition to the antis that they will use when the time is ripe.

    I also believe that sometimes (and possibly in this case) individuals are fooled into thinking they're actually hunting a wild lion and I for one think the right thing to do is make them aware of the real situation before they spend all that money on what's not far short of a con trick......... if you saw someone being conned & robbed in the street, would you try to help or would you turn your back and walk away?

    Put another way, I believe that true hunting was well defined by Sher Jung in Tryst With Tigers when he wrote:

    "The jungle is the place to test one's mettle and one's skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it".

    Others might think different and might think that shooting a penned and possibly drugged animal is acceptable. I don't and when the day comes that the hunting is banned and shortly thereafter, the game is gone, at least no-one will be able to lay the blame at my door.
     
  8. Jonathan Swatts

    Jonathan Swatts New Member

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    Captive bred lion hunts in SA bring absolutely no financial benefit to the locals, all that profit goes into the hands of the landowner and breeder.
     
  9. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Absolutely correct. Thank you Jonathan for making that point....... and I'll add that it contributes nothing whatsoever to the wildlife and conservation of the wild game either because one has nothing to do with the other.
     
  10. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Spike... If I recall I still owe you a baby juice or 22...... :)

    My best always!
     
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    I am not for either, simply because 1. There is NO SUSTAINABLE way in terms of specie to hunt Lion in the "wild" 2. The South African alternative is a way less than perfect one these are simple facts that stand beyond any contention.

    I do believe that making statements of... Should hunting be banned at least no one will be able to lay it on my doorstep.......... (honestly!!!) do we really believe that PETA and the remainder of green peace gives a flying - - - -! In which manner or way you hunt your Lion?????

    Get real guys, another very concerning fact to me is that we honestly believe that any and thereby I mean any funds towards government are used for conservation efforts can we as outfitters and hunters truly be that ignorant?? I doubt it especially because we know how the system works.

    Please shoot your white lion as a collectable, I will not blame you for it wether I approve or not is besides the point, it is your choice I hope you get a beautiful cat.

    Ps all permits signed by the client on a SA lion hunt states in bold print HUNTING OF A CAPTIVE BRED LION.

    Any outfitters trying to bull - - - -! Around it are just silly,

    I'll say this it might be a certainty that the lion will be shot but you could very easily end up on the receiving end it is not quite as cut and dry as many of us try to make it.

    Hope everyone has a wonderfull day.

    Be assured of only my very best at all times.
     
  12. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Jaco
    You say there's not any way to sustainably hunt the species: Yes there is but it means that wild lion hunts will become more expensive and not everyone will get what they want.

    As I see it, if there are more hunters who want to kill lions than there are wild lions available, the answer is to manage our wild lion populations properly and for some that want to hunt them simply can't....... the answer most certainly isn't to create a larger population by artificial and unethical means just to satisfy people's atavistic instincts.

    Unfortunately the supermarket shopping mentality has slowly crept into hunting over the years but hunters need to realise that sometimes we can't all have what we want and that's just life....... Hell, I'd like a Ferrari, a new jet plane, a Westley Richards drop lock double and a palace to live in but I'm not gonna get any of those things and I have to accept that fact.

    Do I think the antis care how lions are killed? - Yes I do. They want to see an end to all hunting and will use whatever ammunition they can find to pursue that ambition and as I see it, captive lion breeding and shooting is giving them more ammunition to use towards achieving that ambition than any other single hunting practice.
     
  13. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    I respectfully disagree, research has shown the contrary, there is nothing different in buying a kudu bull or Impala on an auction and shooting it! This is the origin of the shopping mentality (fortunately I do not operate along these lines)
    But 90% of SA companies do we love as humans to shrug of certain ethical matters as standard operating procedure LIKE SHOOTING FROM A VEHICLE if I had to receive a $ for every time I heard an outfitter chirp a client on a show floor with regards to shooting from a car (if a 55" kudu jumps into the road you'll shoot it) with a smug grin I'd be a millionaire.

    I'm not going to harp on this, I have said what I wanted but really think we should be consequent in our beliefs and ethics.

    My very best...... As always.
     
  14. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Jaco,

    What research & by whom was the research done, where & when?

    Perhaps you could provide a link please?
     
  15. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    good memory, i got disorientated in vegas show (damn grey goose), but will hunt you down in reno :D:draught:
     
  16. jepetto62

    jepetto62 AH Veteran

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    I will try to avoid judging right or wrong, but just state some facts.

    Some companies, who will "release lion for six months", are known to release lions under witnesses, then open the gate of their small pen next days.... Lions will come back to safety and be kept there until the client comes in to hunt a lion "6 months free"... Looks pretty much like window dressing to me!

    In the age of game management, optimization of the financial side of hunting, selection of high quality breeders, not a single operator will put a lion in a large property, where he will mix with this famous 65+ inches breeding Kudu (paid millions of rands) or beautiful sable (sold for 10 KUS$ to potential hunter)... Just to say.

    I just came back from a free range lion hunting, successful, and still have some unanswered questions... wild lion population is hit hard almost everywhere, killing a mature male may lead to cubs being killed, very, very bad perception of this type of hunting by game watchers (photographic safaris). Is it good in term of conservation and long term sustainability of hunting?

    Now, let's dream of an ideal world, closed fence area of 40+ Kha, two/three lions released for at least six months, hunted over 2 weeks on foot, replaced, etc... Then why not? This would potentially be close to an ideal situation, or as good as it could be for a hunter who wants to be ethical and not affect lion population.
    This being said, I m pretty sure that such a hunt would not be much cheaper than a current good quality free roaming lion hunt.
     
  17. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    Jpetto62 good point about removing a male Lion from a pride with cubs. How many Lions are killed by 1 bullet, both directly and indirectly, in that situation.

    So many other fur bearing animals are raised for their pelts, I just dont understand why we put the Lion on a pedistal. Why should there be any difference?
    A Fox is bred, raised for its fur, killed, sold.
    A Lion is bred, raised for its fur, sold, killed.
    The only difference I see is the order of the last 2 steps and our own PERSONAL view of Lions as somehow superior to these other ranched animals.
     
  18. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    The glaringly obvious difference (to me at least) is that a cow, pig or lamb etc is a purely commercial farming enterprise with the desired end result being production of meat etc whereas the lion is supposed to be a hunt where the trophy hunter wants to keep the trophy as a symbol of his hunting prowess and to honour the animal.

    If that were not the case the trophy rooms of the world would be full of stuffed domestic cows, pigs and lambs and the trophy room owners would be paying a daily rate to work in an abattoir.

    As or the proper management thing, I'm all for that and the majority of general/expert opinion of most qualified experts is to only take lions that are not holding a pride with dependent young or lions that are nomadic and not holding a pride at all.

    There's also the theory that one can take any male lion whether holding a pride with dependent young or not but only take any lion one year in three. I don't know much about this theory but it goes back some years and as I understand it, it certainly seems to have merit & was successfully trialled in parts of Zimbabwe for some years.

    For the former theory of the two to be operated properly it obviously requires the individual land owners/concession holders to know their prides & the status of the individual animals intimately & that in turn would raise costs of the hunts available but I for one don't have the slightest problem with that at all because I believe we should be planning for the long term continuance of sport hunting in Africa rather than the instant gratification of every Tom, Dick & Harry that wants to brag to his friends that he's taken a lion.

    We must also remember that sometimes a non appropriate lion might possibly have to be taken out for other reasons such as to protect human life and I'm not ashamed to admit I've had a few of those......... but that's life & we sometimes simply have to accept the fact that shit sometimes happens but at the same time, try to minimise the impact of these occasions.
     
  19. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I have 3 main issues with the canned lion "hunting".
    First of all is it not even close to be called hunting. Call it for lion killing and trophy collecting. Because that is what it is and nothing else.
    Secondly are to many of the so called "outfitters" offering these canned lion hunts lying and deceiving their clients making many of their clients think they really are hunting something that is hard to hunt and something to be proud of.
    And my last problem with it is that very often are the lions so drugged or tame that they just sit there waiting for the bullet.

    I would not have any problems with it all if all involved in it were totally open and honest about it.
    If someone bought a cow from a farmer and put it in a small pen and shot it, then no one would call it hunting.
    No difference at all if it is a lion instead of a cow.
     
  20. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Not bloody likely......
     

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