Is it legal to sell a PAC hunt in South Africa?

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by Spiral Horn Safaris, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    PAC (Problem Animal Control) hunts in South Africa?

    Good day ladies and gentleman I have seen PAC hunts offer in South Africa on a regular basis I absolutely want to question the legality of these hunts?

    After calling two nature conservation officers both in Limpopo I got the same answer.

    “Am I as an outfitter allowed to promote the selling of a PAC hunt in any way”?

    The reply was a stern NO, we are not allowed to promote these hunts to foreign clients at all nor should there be a price on these animals nice they are Problem animals and the permit holder (usually land owner) has to dispose of the animal?

    Then it was future stated to me that in no way are we allowed to put a price on this PAC animal and promote the selling of it for financial gain?

    These permits are usually as I said before given either too the land owner, or someone who he would appoint and thus this person will come and dispose of the problem animal. Each application will either be granter or denied on its own merit.

    Should it be a an overseas client (and the permits is in his name) then so be it he will have the opportunity to hunt this animals free of charge!

    We all get a lot of offers from various place to come and do one of these PAC hunts, one in particular is fresh in my mind about 18 elephant that are now in some nature reserve?

    My questions is what good is having a law but now one enforces it , has this become one of those things that everybody does it so why can’t I? and very importantly does this behaviour make it legal?:)

    This is not an attack but a simple question I might be missing something here but the whole thing sounds like trouble too me, well at least if you are worried about the laws of your country and giving your client a legal hunt?:)

    I am sure there are quite a few people who will educate me on the matter so please fire away.

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2014
  2. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    So how are outfitters getting CITES tags then? Is it legal to ship the animals out? The huge problem I see...is who is enforcing these regulations?

    I just think it's wise to stay away from these type of hunts.
  3. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Enysse

    Outfitters can apply for a Cities tag with nature conservation but no PAC animal will get one since it is labelled as a problem animal, in this instance no part of the animal can be exported.

    If the animal is not on the cities list you need not apply for a permit but what is really funny is you don’t see any PAC kudu out there LOL.

    I do agree with you that the governing body of hunting in South Africa (PHASA) should be more involved, but I do also understand that they are not the police.

    It is nature conservations job to enforce these laws, but unfortunately they are understaffed and cant monitor everything.

    This also comes down to good honest business, the morals of each individual.

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  4. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Great topic Louis.


    Here is the definition by the South African Ministry of Environmental Affairs and Tourism in the Biodiversity Act or Protected Areas Act of the expression "damage causing animal" and “culling”.


    Definitions

    “damage causing animal” means an individual of a listed threatened or protected
    species that, when interacting with human activities there is substantial proof that it –
    (a) causes losses to livestock or to other species;
    (b) excessive damage to cultivated trees or crops or natural flora or other property;
    (c) presents a threat to human life; or
    (d) is present in such numbers that agricultural grazing is materially depleted


    “culling”
    (a) in relation to an animal in a protected area, means an operation executed by an
    official of, or other person designated by, the management authority of the
    protected area to kill a specific number of animals of that species within the
    area in order to manage that species in the area in accordance with the
    management plan of the area; or
    (b) in relation to a listed animal which has escaped from a protected area and has
    become a damage causing animal, means an operation executed by an official
    of, or other person designated by, the management authority of the protected
    area to kill the animal as a matter of last resort;
    (c) in relation to a specimen of a listed threatened or protected species on a
    registered game farm, means an operation executed by the land owner, or
    other person designated by the land owner to kill a specific number of
    specimens of a listed threatened or protected species within the game farm in
    order to manage that species on the farm.
  5. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Can someone please then explain what's up with these P.A.C/cull/management Ele hunts we so often see advertised, including some on this site, for sale.

    This is a hunt that, for the very nature of its affordability, may provide someone like me the only limited chance to hunt Elephant and as a result this is a hunt I was seriously contemplating on doing in the next year or so.

    It would be nice to know if it is actually legimitate or not BEFORE the manicles go on, L.O.L.

    Seriously, here's a chance for those promoting such hunts, in the interests of transperancy, to contribute and provide some facts.
  6. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Paul

    I can be wrong here but it might be important to differentiate between a Management/Cull hunt and a PAC hunt even though in some instances they are advertised as Cull hunts but are actually a PAC hunt.

    Culling is surely something that has to be done on private game reserves but usually this will be done very selectively, and the owner would much rather sell a big bull for a high price (I know this becomes is a trophy hunt and not Culling) than just shoot some females, that is usually how it happens to me at least?

    Personally I have no problem with a client hunting a problem animal should he be in the area at the time, this should be done free of charge and the client must leave the skin, tusks but does have a fun experience. The PAC permit should also be made out in his name and as said before this will be handled by nature conservation.

    I think the simple rule of not allowing Outfitters to put a price on a PAC animal will ensure that there will be far less of these so called PAC hunts available and since there is no money in it for the Outfitter he will only do such a hunt with his client should there be a true problem animal as defined above.

    Unfortunately I am of the opinion that this is yet another overused smart marketing tactic, because if it was legal we would all be promoting these hunts but it would seem that only a few people do?

    Hopefully some of the guy’s who seem to know something that I am missing will point it out for us?

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  7. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Hello Louis, thank-you for your input.

    Unfortunately I remain quite vague on the topic especially towards the manner in which specific terminology is used in reference to, say, any non-exportable Ele hunt.

    As foreigners we rely, to a large extent, on the integrity of the outfitter who is selling/operating the hunt to provide a service that complies with the laws of the country being hunted.

    I have noted in previous similar examples of non-trophy hunts in other countries where existing, reputable and experienced operators also had differing interpretations of the existing regulations.

    I certainly understand the specific reference to P.A.C, but is there a specific term of reference to classify;
    a) management animal,
    b) cull animal,
    c) non-trophy,
    d) non-exportable.

    Are any formal approval permits issued to the outfitter outlining the Authority to take any of the above classified animals so that a client may request copies of said permits, in order to verify validity ?

    Is it a fact that the non-exportable description is purely an attempt to sell a hunt for an animal without the legal permits/quota allocations ?

    Are there legal/legitimate opportunities for foreign hunters to undertake non-trophy, non-export Elephant hunts in R.S.A. ?

    Thank-you in adavance,
    Paul.
  8. daggaboyblog

    daggaboyblog AH Veteran

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    Paul,

    I have twice been offered the opportunity to shoot hippo on a PAC permit. I was told that I would not be able to export the trophy and the outfitter asked for a USD3,000 trophy fee - even though there was no trophy as such. There were no exorbitant daily rates as I was already in country hunting. I knocked the opportunity back both times.

    Regarding your query re elephant hunting - for us Australians every elephant is non-exportable! Even if you shoot an elephant in one of the countries that lists them as CITES II animals, our wonderful customs regulations absolutely prohibit the importation of Loxodonta africanus.

    I'm pretty sure that elephant populations in Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Tanzania are all CITES II - good for the rest of the world, not very useful for us!

    You best bet might be a tuskless cow in Zimbabwe - you might find a hunt for around $10,000?
  9. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Paul

    The only advice I can give you is if someone advertises a PAC hunt or states that the trophy cannot be exported leave it alone unless you want to get in to trouble.

    As far as I understand it is possible for a client to hunt a PAC animal but like I said he would have to be in the country at the time, the animal must be offered to the client free and the PAC permit has to be issued in the clients name, this makes it virtually impossible to book these hunts in advance.

    Paul I think schembridan gave you some really good advice with regards to a management hunt in Zim but please make sure that the government has put out a quota on these management hunts since a lot of people will just offer you a management hunt that is actually a PAC animal and you will never know? Martin might help us out on this one?

    “Are any formal approval permits issued to the outfitter outlining the Authority to take any of the above classified animals so that a client may request copies of said permits, in order to verify validity” ?

    With regards to documentation I would suggest that we keep this simple and to get a singed letter from that particular country’s nature conservation department as proof that the hunt is legal it should also state the name of the Outfitter/PH and client who will be conducting the hunt?

    There is a lot of grey here that is why this suggestion makes the most sense to me?

    “Is it a fact that the non-exportable description is purely an attempt to sell a hunt for an animal without the legal permits/quota allocations” ?

    I believe that this is very much the case especially in this struggling economy we are seeing more and more of these hunts advertised and I refuse to believe that there was a sudden surge in animal populations over the last 2 years?

    Are there legal/legitimate opportunities for foreign hunters to undertake non-trophy, non-export Elephant hunts in R.S.A. ?

    Paul you can be in South Africa and there is a case of a problem animal then apply for a PAC permit and then it would be up to nature conservation if they will approve it or not.

    Should they approve the hunt you will be welcome to hunt this animal at no additional cost besides your daily rate and transport to the area?

    Unfortunately I am not currently aware of any other non exportable forms of hunting Elephant in South Africa, but there might be some opportunities that I am not aware off?

    I hope this helps?

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  10. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Louis,
    Very nice topic, and I hope it opens some eyes on this forum and others.
    Here is a question for you, how would this affect the Black Back Jackal, since they are classified as problem animals on farms.Would they fall under PAC? I am sure you know of the problem we have in the country. I help out commercial farmers in my area when I have a chance, to try and control the numbers by means of calling. It only makes sense since Jackal target game just as much as anything else, and of course this is when it affects me. I have a permit issued by Eastern Cape Nature Conservation to unlimited Jackal and Caracal. Does this mean that Outfitters would need a permit to hunt these?

    Regards
    Marius Goosen
  11. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Hope nobody minds me pointing out that PHASA is not the governing body of hunting in SA. I've been a member of PHASA for many years and their name describes their function perfectly. They are the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa. They're an excellent organisation (most of the time) but they have no lawmaking powers and cannot govern anything. The most they can do is expel a member for inappropriate conduct etc.

    Regarding PAC, who is and is not permitted to shoot it all depends on which province, where in the province (eg public or private land etc), what species of animal and what type of permit has been issued.

    We don't offer that kind of thing at all but my advice would be to view any such offer with a degree of caution.
  12. Karl Stumpfe

    Karl Stumpfe AH Veteran

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    Paul, I cannot comment on other countries, as I am not sure, but can tell you that in Namibia, there is the oppertunity for a hunter like yourself to shoot one of 3 types of elephant legally:
    1) trophy elephant (CITES 11, not exportable to Aus, but most other countries no problem.)
    2) meat/ own use/ traditional authority elephant (Not exportable, you buy the hunting experience, not a trophy, but you can get some reproduction tusks made, although we 99% of the time shoot broken tusked or weak genetics for tusks bulls for this, as one would naturally try and not shoot a trophy or potential trophy.)
    3) problem elephant as declared by MET, may be exported if CITES tag is available, which it is most of the time.
  13. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Thank-you to all that have offered advice here.

    Schembidan, I am well aware of the import restrictions of Ele product into Aus, as was the case during my first hunt to Zim in 2000.
    (I believe it Was Bob Hawke who introduced the embargo on the late 80's ?).
    This very reason makes it pointless for anyone in our country (Aus) to be concerned with Trophy bull hunting.

    At some stage though, if I could manage to accumulate the neccessary funds, it would still be an incredible experience to be involved in a hunt for Elephant, not withstanding the Trophy.
    It has been a lifelong goal of mine.

    For someone like myself, on a limited budget, these often advertised "p.a.c/management/cull" hunts are a constant source of frustration in that they are attractively priced and optioned, but, now becoming clearer, not legal.

    Karl, it is comforting to know that when I finaly do have the neccessary coin I can come to Namibia and fullfil my dream of taking an Elephant and do so legaly with a reputable operator.
  14. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Marius

    Would they be classified as PAC or simply as vermin, personally I think that they can’t be classified as PAC in other words all black back jackal, I think a PAC animal has to be a specific animal and not the entire population thus I would rather refer to them as vermin?

    I can’t see a reason why a Outfitter needs a permit to hunt black back jackal with a client who will most probably only take one when the opportunity presents itself but if you intend on hunting them on a large scale then it makes sense I suppose?

    We do need a permit to hunt caracal here in Limpopo, but I am not sure about the Eastern Cape.

    Shakari my humblest apologies for stating the wrong facts with regards to PHASA, I have a very clear understanding that they look after us as their members and play a very active role as liaison between their registered members and nature conservation.

    It would be great if we can get more people to become members of PHASA because this will in turn put them in a better position to monitor the hunting industry and also give them more recourses to work with.

    As said above I know that they are not the police but it would surely be appreciated if we can get some more info with regards to the whole PAC topic, just some clear guidelines?

    Would you mind going in to this statement with a bit more detail, after asking both PHASA and two nature conservation officers it would seem that I still don’t have all the facts?:confused:

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  15. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Louis,
    In the Eastern Cape you need a permit for both Caracal and Jackal. But, as you know, " we dont have the resources or manpower to check up on everybody"
    You gotta love this government...

    BTW have you heard from Johan. I think he's still sulking about the Stormers' win over the Bulls yesterday...:vomit:
  16. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Marius

    Good to know that you need a permit for Jackal as well and yes you identified a major problem with your statement!

    Ha what a weekend of upsets I am also licking my wounds after the Sharks game but at least we did not lose to the Stormers LOL poor Johan must be hiding somewhere in the bush LOL.

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen
  17. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    As I understand it, the whole thing is a right stuff up and that's why I reckon a degree of caution is advised.

    Not only do different provinces each seem to have different rules, they also (to the best of my knowledge) seem to have different names for the different permits.

    For example, (in the case of at least one province) if an elephant escapes and goes walkabout, the GD will/might issue a destruction order where if it's on public land such as on the highway or on the road reserve, a GD member is the only one who can legally shoot it.

    In the province I live in it appears to be different again. I think it's only the GD that are allowed to do the deed...... Certainly the last times we've had breakouts from the KNP of elephant or lion (couple of years ago) the local paper said only the GD were allowed to shoot them wherever they were.

    If it crosses onto private land, the landowner may or may not be allowed to shoot and may or may not nominate a member of staff, or possibly (but not always) a SA citizen and possibly (but not always) an overseas resident (as in a hunting client that happens to be in the area).

    Add on the fact that the term PAC is a much abused word and often used where it shouldn't be just makes the issue even more complicated.

    For example, if a landowner has a hippo causing hassle and wants it shot and then offers it to a client as a PAC animal with no trophy fee, is it really a true PAC animal or is it just an animal the landowner wants to be rid of?

    I'd say the best thing to do is to go to the hunting director of whatever provincial GD affects you and get the local chapter and verse from him.

    As for rugby...... I was convinced England was up for the grand slam on the 6 Nations but they threw it all away yesterday........ can't tell you how depressed I was!

    Ah well.,...... there's always the World Cup! :)
  18. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Haha Steve,
    With the current form of the All Blacks, I dont think any teams should get too excited...

    Best regards
    Marius Goosen
  19. shakari

    shakari AH Enthusiast

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    Marius,

    As much as I'd like to say England will get to the final, I reckon they don't have a chance.

    My money would be on two of either RSA, NZ & Oz making it to the final.

    And of course as RSA is my adopted country, I'd like to see them take the cup...... but of course, it'll depend on whether they can manage to remember the rules of the game.

    If they do, they stand a bloody good chance of winning but if they forget the rules as they so often do, they'll get knocked out.

    Time will tell though.
  20. Spiral Horn Safaris

    Spiral Horn Safaris AH Fanatic

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    Hi Steve

    Thanks for the additional info this whole PAC thing is an absolute mess If I find it confusing I can only imagine how clients feel?

    It would really be great if we can all get some stern guidelines I will call around a bit tomorrow and see if we can get some more facts?

    I think one thing is for sure however we are not allowed to sell these hunts for financial gain.

    Steve England? I am sorry to hear my friend it must be tough to support them LOL, I think you guy’s will be in the mix come the world cup but New Zealand is my main concern.:p

    Marius come now you can’t be serious you are a South African, ag nee man sies LOL!:vomit:

    Oh by the way good luck for the Cricket it seems like you guys like to take games down to the wire LOL!;)

    Best Regards
    Louis van Bergen

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