Informative article on the Lion issue in Africa

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by hound_hunter, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. hound_hunter

    hound_hunter AH Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Member of:
    SCI Utah, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule Deer Foundation, Utah Houndsmen
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe , Namibia, Tanzania, USA
    I found this article last night when I was trying to find proof to defend myself when a friend of mine told me how he didn't like that I went on a lion hunt in Tanzania 2 years ago. With a little talk on here lately on the issue I figured I'd post a link to the article. If I remember right it pretty much says the same thing as Jerome's video he posted a week or so ago, but It's a good read none the less. Sad deal over there.

    Africa's lion population is falling
     
  2. Shallom

    Shallom AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    74
    Hunted:
    Tanzania, Germany, Austria, USA.
    Thanks for putting up info on lion conservation hound hunter... please keep up the good awareness-sharing for everyone to benefit. Once the lion is in danger, Dangerous Game hunting will just simply not be the same -not because of not being able to hunt them, but just not having their presence in the wild - they are truly the symbol of wilderness.
     
  3. Die Ou Jagter

    Die Ou Jagter AH Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    3
    Member of:
    Allegheny Mt Chapter SCI, DSC, NRA
    Thanks for the post. I went to the LWL web site and was glad to see SCIF was one of their sponsors.
     
  4. Calhoun

    Calhoun AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    10
    Member of:
    SCI N.E. Wisconsin Chapter - WisNRA
    I agree Ryan once the Lion is in trouble the rest will suffer!! If it wasn't for the people who got behind the Rhino in the 60's and brought it back to sustainable population numbers.. it would have been the Big 4 & possibly now the Big 3!! We need more groups like SCI to step in & help with these situations before the antis jump in & make it that way with others species!!
     
  5. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI Dallas
    Hunted:
    RSA, Botswana, CAR, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Kenya way back when, and a few others that I can't remember.
    I don't know if my thinking is right or wrong but its my opinnion and rightfully argueable, but I feel like as long as RSA is allowed to do the canned hunts, those folks won't be shooting the wild lions...I don't do canned lion hunts or any canned hunts, but it seems they may serve a purpose in Lion recovery, but only if the African governments come around and that means giveing up a little greed!!..

    I trust African governments these days about as far as I could toss a live Cape buffalo by his tail..they pass some decent legislation and IMO mostly to give them another window for a big bribe..Sorta like our government except they are a lot more open about it..

    Maybe I have become curmudgeoned and distrustful in my old age.
     
  6. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    19
    Member of:
    SCI Life Member, MLOA, DU, MWF, MTA
    No Ray....................you are not distrustful.............you have been around the block a few times, as have I. Simple fact is that greed, personal glory and hidden agendas are never far below the surface, you just have to know where and what to look for...............and as noted some just do not put as much effort into concealing what things are really all about.

    Now that does sound negative doesn't it? ;)
     
  7. Safari Chick

    Safari Chick AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2008
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    26
    Member of:
    SCI
    Sadly, I do not think it is negativity on either of you part, but reality instead... it's just that you have the experience to see it. I couldn't agree with you more, I unfortunately have had to learn these very sad and disheartening things about people at a young age due to the circumstances of my upbringing. It is too true that "greed, personal glory and hidden agendas are never far below the surface" among the majority of people. They are very basic human instincts and inclinations and affect most if not all things in life...especially anywhere that a lot of money and power is involved. People lose sight of what is good and real and important and become blinded so easily by the false glory that comes with money, power or fame... Skyline and Ray, whose the one who sounds negative or jaded now?
     
  8. Calhoun

    Calhoun AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    10
    Member of:
    SCI N.E. Wisconsin Chapter - WisNRA
    Safari Chick, Kelly, & Ray.. that's why I love this site REALITY, everyone brings out the truth in their own way & we all get along!! We all have an opinion & we try to help each other out!! As far as Negativity & greed .. My views are about the same as you guys!!
    I just hope that the Lion hunting doesn't all become canned hunts but I'm afraid Ray you might be right!! Once things start change becomes rather difficult....
     
  9. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI Dallas
    Hunted:
    RSA, Botswana, CAR, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique, Kenya way back when, and a few others that I can't remember.
    The reality is if you just stop and think about it is that we hunt all the plainsgame behind fences in RSA and to a lesser extent in Zimbabwe, so why not the lion..That does not bother me in the least, the lion, buffalo, and whatever. they are no better than a Sable or Kudu in the big picture. It is a means or conservation that has proven effective. The Rhino program in RSA has been very successful and now they hunt them once again, and they have green hunts also.

    I say let the those that wish to hunt under those circumstances have at it..If they stop all lion hunting in RSA that will put a awful lot of pressure on the wild lion situation and Im not sure the wild lions can take much more..I would like to see a temporary moritorium on wild lions in Zim and Tanzania in specific areas where its needed. I would like to see a little common since become a part of all this, but likey it will not happen and if it does it will be a dog an pony show for sure.

    I wouldn't swear that I am right on how to handle it, but its a start for sure and we will never know until its tested, talked about and planned out...I personally would not want to hunt dangerous game behind a fence, but I know that fenced buffalo on the whole are more aggressive than wild buffalo for whatever thats worth. I know a fenced Lion can kill you and if you try and run you bump into the fence! : ) sorry, thats just my sick humor popping up.

    I remember I would not shoot a doe in my youth as I believed it to be contrary to good hunting practices, but today I wouldn't even hesitate, things change so you never know..

    I am and have been concerned over the lion situation because Lions, unlike other animal are very difficult to manage and today with all our science we still have not come up with a workable solution..The new males eating the pride cubs has thrown the experts into a dark state of indignation and denial. Every male lion you kill is in effect killing the cubs in the pride under some circumstances..It is difficult.
     
  10. Intu Safaris

    Intu Safaris AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    2
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia
    Just on another note. The problem with putting a lot of hunting pressure on a lion population is that as the pride lions (typically mature males) are being removed, younger males of about 3 years old take over a pride which is totally abnormal. This has been observed with a couple of prides in the Selous G.R. in Tanzania.

    Werner
     
  11. Cleathorn

    Cleathorn AH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    6
    My Photos:
    3
    Member of:
    SCI; NRA; Niagara Sportsmen Club
    Hunted:
    Most of US, Canada, South America, New Zealand, Australia; South Africa, Zimbabwe
    Lion conservation is a must for he survival of the species. In Africa, its proven time and again that when value is placed on the game, and the game is able to "pay for itself," sustainable or population increases follow. The Rhino is certainly the best example but here are others. Usually demonstrated in the negative - areas like Zim where changes in concession management lead to increased poaching for survival and the decimation of the wildlife.

    It would be very difficult in the modern era to sport hunt something to the point of extinction. Conservation Force has the right track, sustainable lion management plans in all countries with existing lion populations. Science has shown that taking male lions over 6 years old does not affect the breeding strength or genetics of pride survival. Consequently, sport hunting with an age limit of at least 6 year old males in conjunction with area specific quotas should strengthen the lion populations.

    The hardest part is likely to be the human/lion interactions. If part of the fees where given to support lost livestock, and the lion "pays" for itself, it will survive and thrive. Remember that even in this day and age, the fundamental principals of evolution still control. The strongest survive over the weaker species. In this case, with modern guns, drugs, spotlights and sheer numbers, humans are stronger than lions and can (and will) decimate them unless adequate intervention in he form of a lion management plan is put into place.

    As for canned hunting, I am not a fan. Having said that, I have found, through some hard work and research, some very good hunts in RSA that I would not consider "canned" under any definition. While some of the lions may have been born in captive breeding programs, there are large farms and ranches, particularly in the Kalahari, with sustainable lion prides outside of the so-called "canned hunt" fencing. Lions that where either bought for canned hunts that "escaped" (I use the parenthetical because as I have found out, the escapes are well known and nothing is done to prevent it, so the lions leave the enclosures and roam freely in self sustain prides) and make for me very good hunting in game rich parts of the Kalahari at reasonable (for lion) prices. That is at least for now.

    I agree with those who compare lion to Sable, Kudu or other animals like Buffalo. If hunting those animals on a ranch setting is considered suitable and sporting, why not lion? Most lion are hunted over bait, bringing the lion to the hunters and are shot while feeding. Is that somehow more sporting than hunting self-sustaining lions on the same ranches that droves of hunters hunt plains game - the lions prey of choice?

    Lion hunting on ranch settings may be a vital part of lion survival and recovery in certain parts of Africa. I do not consider that "canned hunting."

    I do not agree with what was happening years back where lions were bought on Monday and shot on Tuesday or Wednesday. But lions, or any game, that can be born into an area and be self-sustaining is just as sporting a hunt as any of the other game hunted on the same properties. Suitable size is the key component. I would not hunt a ranch in RSA that was not adequately sized for my personal taste. Strictly IMO that means greater than 20,000 hectares.

    I have nothing against the smaller properties, and I am not saying they are not suitable for lion as well, I just have a size in my mind as a minimum area I would want to hunt. Others may happily hunt smaller areas and others may require much larger areas or avoid hunting in RSA all together because of the game ranching nature of the hunting. But the yardstick should be whether the area can sustain wildlife without supplemental feeding or other domestication-type activities such that the animals maintain their basics instincts and have adequate area to escape.

    But in the end, when it comes to lion, species survival may depend on human intervention and the creation of a market for hunting areas that do not impact existing stocks in stressed areas. The methods being invoked in RSA may be part of the solution.

    I for one support the change in regulations that go from a 6 month to a 2 year free roaming period before hunting is allowed. That will give enough time for prides to establish (like they do in the Kalahari) and the hunting will be no different at anywhere else in Africa. It is true that more PG will be lost to the lion prides, but the market will make up that differential and the population will stabilize around demand.

    The science and economics of lion sustainability is not that difficult. The politics and greed associated with lion or any wildlife management issues are far more difficult and IMO opinion will have a greater impact on the ultimate fate of lions (and lion hunting) than sound science and reasonable and responsible wildlife management plans.

    I have not been around the block as many times as some of the earlier commentators but I work in an area that involves heavy government regulation, permitting and determinations of reasonable use and necessity and from my own experience, what the average person considers reasonable and necessary if often are removed from the gov't decision making process.

    Just the thoughts of a hopeful lion hunter looking to compete the Classic big 5 while it is still possible.
     
  12. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    6,530
    Likes Received:
    366
    My Photos:
    32
    Member of:
    Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
    Cleathorn, I think you covered a lot of things on lion hunting. I'm not sure about the management of lions, the ethics of some hunts being carried out, the hunters overall satisfation after the hunt or how much people are benificiary of lion management. All I know if lions aren't available for hunting, then Africa hunting has lost a huge asset. I may never see or hunt a lion in Africa. But the fact they are still available, means something is going right in this crazy world.
     

Share This Page