East Cape Kudu

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by adgunner, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. adgunner

    adgunner SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    While reading thru some other threads it appears to me that when someone is talking about "East Cape Kudu" they are talking about something different. Is it the same specie or something different?
     
  2. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    In South Africa, you have the Southern Greater Kudu and the East Cape Kudu. Generally the East Cape Kudu is found in the East Cape Province. But their is a lot of overlap in territory thanks to people moving animals around. Generally the east cape kudu have less mass and less length than a Southern Greater Kudu. Length on East Cape kudu 45 to 52 is normal on a mature animal. Where a Southern Greater Kudu is 50 to 62 for the most part.
     
  3. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    The East Cape Kudu has been proven to be a sub-specie to the Southern Greater Kudu. I think it was 2007, the Professional Hunting Academy of the Eastern Cape had the DNA tests done, which proved the sub-specie. The fact is that SCI recognises the sub-specie but Rowland Ward does not.
    Enysse is quite correct that the Southern Greater Kudu is heavier than the Eastern Cape kudu, and also has bragging rights on the measurement side of the business end.
    I do however prefer our darker coat, with the sometimes almost black neck, as compared to the sandy, light colour coat.

    I'm looking forward to all members input on their opinions.

    Best Regards
    Marius Goosen
     
  4. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I to like the looks of the Eastern Cape Greater Kudu the one I took in 2010 51 and 1/8 inchs made my dream come true. according to SCI there are 6 sub-specie of Kudu. I have listed below.

    Abyssinian Greater Kudu
    East African Greater Kudu
    Eastern Cape Greater Kudu
    Lesser Kudu
    Southern Greater Kudu
    Western Greater Kudu
     
  5. Wolverine67

    Wolverine67 AH Fanatic

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    Hello Bob
    I think lesser kudu is considered a specie on its own?
     
  6. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Hi Trond you may very well be right I don't know a lot on the gene pool side I quess I should have worded it a little different they list 6 specie or sub-specie of kudu all I know is I would love to take 1 of each and hope to one day. Of course that means building another Trophy Room.
     
  7. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    ....and the problem is?
     
  8. Wolverine67

    Wolverine67 AH Fanatic

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    Yeah, no problemo. I am sure there are some awailable carpenters out there...lol
    Its a nice goal Bob, you sure are on your way.
     
  9. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    The Eastern cape Kudu has never been scientifically classified as a Sub species, the fact that SCI lists it seperatly in their trophy records is by no means an indication a of it being recognized as a sub species, I believe they just wanted to make space for Kudu shot in the eastern cape.

    Formerly four subspecies have been described, but recently only one to three subspecies have been accepted based on colour, number of stripes and horn length these are.
    1.) T. s. strepsiceros, southern parts of the range from southern Kenya to Namibia, Botswana and South Africa (under which Southern Greater and East Cape kudu rank)
    2.) T. s. chora, northeastern Africa from northern Kenya through Ethiopia to eastern Sudan, western Somalia and Eritrea
    3.) T. s. cottoni, Chad and western Sudan

    This classification was supported by the genetic difference of one specimen of northern Kenya (T. s. chora) in comparison with several samples from the southern part of the range between Tanzania and Zimbabwe (T. s. strepsiceros). No specimen of the northwestern population, which may represent a third subspecies (T. s. cottoni) was tested within this study.

    I personally believe that geographic distribution, and browsing alone, are responsible for the variation in colouring and horn length (no constant difference in striping....they are exactly the same.), and whilst these exact differences have been taken into consideration in establishing the mentioned sub species the Eastern Cape Kudu has not been classified as such..

    The Eastern cape Kudu as we know it today became isolated from the remaining Southern African population by human settlement and retreated into the Sundays river as well as the Great fish river valley's..... originally, at present it is being managed as a sub population, but there are no indication whatsoever (apart from in the hunting community) of it being recognised as a sup specie. (Smither's and Skinner)

    There are however significant differences in horn length between the two populations, but they are fun to hunt no matter which way you look at it. Ole Bally can also jump in here...??
    I do understand that certain so called Authorities have done their own research with very little publication and I am not putting down any of them, I also truly believe that with the current movement of game SCI should most defenitly re asess the seperate trophy listing... due to the very obvious interference and my prediction would be that the two seperate listing will disolve into one within the next 10 years.

    My very best always.

    I have attached an interesting article by Ron Tompson, it does shed a different light on the subject.
    So, what does all this mean to hunters and to hunting? It means a great deal.

    If one takes the Greater Kudu, for example one of Africa's most sought after hunting trophies The Safari Club International Trophy Record Book recognises five subspecies. Not only are these subspecies very widely separated, geographically, they are also all measurably recognisable by the differences that occur between their respective body sizes, their skin colourations and/or markings, and/or by the differences that occur in their horn lengths and the circumferences of their horns.

    If hunters want to compare apples-with-apples, therefore, it is important that they come to understand the differences that exist between the subspecies and that wherever trophy records are kept that they state, in those records, the subspecies category concerned.

    If subspecies rankings were not recognised, no trophy hunter seeking to put his name in the record books, would hunt Greater Kudu anywhere else other than in the range where the Southern Greater Kudu subspecies occurs. This would be because Southern Greater Kudu is éhe biggest of them all? More than thirty specimens of the southern subspecies have been taken with one or both horns exceeding 60 inches in length and with circumferences-at-the-base varying between 11 and 13 inches. This is important for the SCI 都core measurement ratings - which adds together both horn lengths and both horn circumferences. The higher the 都core the better the trophy.

    The maximum recorded length of the Western Greater Kudu subspecies, to make a comparison, is less than 47 inches and the horn circumference is less than 10 inches. The comparative figures - for the Abyssinian race is less than 60 and c.10 inches; for the East Africa race it is less than 60 and c.11inches; and for the Eastern Cape race, it is less than 54 and c.11 inches.

    So, bearing in mind the fact that all these races, or subspecies, of the Greater Kudu are genetically distinct, making them consistently different from each other, the fact that the trophy record books recognise the differences that exist between their trophies is both justifiable AND desirable. And exactly this same criterion applies to a whole range of other huntable trophy animals that have one or more genuine subspecies within their range, too.

    The recognition of subspecies is important for another reason. It keeps international trophy hunters visiting Africa every year, and leaving vitally important foreign currency on the continent. Dedicated trophy hunters, for example, now have five legitimate Greater Kudu trophies to pursue instead of just one and their attentions are spread over many more countries than would have been the case had only one Greater Kudu trophy been recognised.

    In my opinion, the best African game trophy of them all would be a combination of the incomparably beautiful charcoal-and-white head-and-neck skin-cape of the Eastern Cape Greater Kudu and the magnificent horns of the Southern Greater Kudu. This could be easily arranged, of course, but it would not be recognised as a legitimate trophy head.

    Categories:
    Conservation,
    Editorials,
    Species


    Tags: africa,
    conservation,
    species
     
  10. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Jaco,
    DNA tests were done a number of years ago on a farm near Grahamstown.The tests proved that the East Cape Kudu was a genuine sub-specie
    from the Southern Greater. This is also the same property where I did my PH course and I was invloved with the subject was discussed extensively while we were
    there. The whole Rowland Ward / SCI story I cannot comment with confidence, but as far as I can remember, the tests proving the facts were
    presented to Rowland Ward to accept it as a sub-specie, which they declined to do. SCI were more open-minded about the story.

    But as far as facts go, the DNA tests proved the sub-specie debate.

    Best Regards
    Marius Goosen

    BTW : Just saw the bottom of your post about the maximum lengths on the Kudu recorded? 54" for the Eastern Cape Kudu? When were these stats posted 1960? 56" Bull was taken two years ago on an open farm in Jansenville on a friends farm, just missing the previous record of 57"
     
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Marius thanks for the reply All info provided are on current research regarded as the bible of the Southern sub region's mamals, (J D Skinner and R H N Smitthers) I am attaching another interesting piece of information regarding this,.. based on the spesific research you are referring to, point is simple it has never been and never will be regarded in serious scientific/biological circles as a natural sub species simply because to the largest extent it has been artificially created.

    "There are two species:
    The greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros
    The lesser kudu Tragelaphus imberbis,

    and three sub-species:
    The southern greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros strepsiceros
    The East African greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros bea
    The northern greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros cottoni

    During the 1700's and 1800's the Eastern Cape kudu became isolated from the rest of South Africa's populations as a result of human settlement. At present this population is managed as a sub-population that differs in size and trophy quality. This is a mistake, as a genetically new sub-species is being created artificially."

    In my book, not natural,.. hence my comments, while many might argue most will agree.

    I am very much aware of the old world record, as I started hunting in the Eastern cape as a young professional hunter, and hunted double drift, Sam Knott and many other ranches in the comitees drift area especially and loved it.

    But it is a matter of (As Peter flack stated) whether you want to side with the joiners or the splitters, to be frank I prefer the the first especially because it has been based on the natural populations (non artificial),.... especially when taking all the movement of game throughout South Africa into consideration with modern day buying and stocking, a practice in itself that will be the undoing of the so called Eastern cape sub species, and the exact thing that will lead to a uniform listing.
    It has never been regarded as a naturally occuring subspecies and the drive for that as in the early 2000's and specifically the research conducted in 2007 is quite obvious for various economic reasons.

    The 3 subspecies regarded by common day bioligists are clearly listed in current and various sources.

    Regardles of all the above I will restate that they are a awesome species to hunt(kudu) it is a matter of deciding what you believe in.

    As far as the date of publishing is concerned, Ron Tompson is a pretty reliable source as I am sure research will prove, would love to have had some DNA tests done on some of those world records. As this will most defenitly become a point of concern in the not to distant future due to the various reasons stated above.

    Happy hunting and my very best, as always.
     
  12. adgunner

    adgunner SILVER SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    Thanks to all for the info, sounds alot like our black bear population spread across Canada and the varying differences between them. Now i just have to convince the wife of multiple trips! Can't say as i didn't learn anything today!
     
  13. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    I am neither a biologist or geneticist but in an arguement between the 2 I would side with the geneticist, how can you argue with DNA? A singe cell can be used to identify an individual let alone a species or sub-species. The number of stripes may not vary between the 2 but obviously there must be enough genetic difference to tell Cape Kudu from Southern which is also evidenced, for me at least, by the difference in coat color and horn size.

    It makes sense to me to acknowldge these genetically isolated individuals and if that adds to their value as a hunting trophy, so be it. Seems like a win-win situation.
     
  14. huntsolo101

    huntsolo101 AH Senior Member

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    ROUND 2 ...... ding ding ding
     
  15. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ha ha ha! You funny man. :laughing:
     
  16. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    I will deal with you when you arrive here in 6 weeks...:letsparty:

    But first we have to find you a 50" Southern East African Northern Cape Kudu.
     
  17. ibie

    ibie AH Veteran

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    East cape Kude are their own species
     
  18. andriesdeklerk

    andriesdeklerk AH Veteran

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    Sub species or not, the Eastern Cape kudu skins and especially old bulls are much more attractive then its northern cousins. The down side to this all is that many of the Eastern Cape game farms are bringing in nether bulls for their superior horn quality. So if DNA is the norm to go by, the subspecies will then not be recognised for too much longer. Sad...
     
  19. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    That is the same thing Texas has done with their whitetail deer. They have brought in big bodied and antlered northern deer to boost the trophy quality of their deer.
     
  20. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    I have (As you probably figured I would.........) Been following this thread and must admit I am surprised...I am a strong believer in the fact that one has to be open to learn something new everyday, but learning something new in my mind should be based on fact, due to our line of work (professional hunters and some true naturalists) we escort and educate and share the wonders of Africa with clients on a day to day basis and sharing factual information with our hunting friends and clients is a must.

    With this being said I would like to encourage all to go through my posts on this particular thread and many others..............

    To set things straight,
    I have not once on this, or any other particular post/thread on this or any sight or in person put down or discouraged hunters from wanting or trying or hunting in the Eastern Cape! (any other interpretation would be simply contributed to a lack of comprehension of what I was trying to say, or an unwillingness to understand or listen and ponder....)
    I simply replied to this particular thread to provide correct information,... due to the fact that the wrong information was being distributed/shared (not an uncommon phenomena in the Hunting industry.)
    I have since been in contact with multiple references who's detail I will share below to clear up any doubts that might exist, regarding the information I have provided and the broad assumption,... that the Eastern cape Southern Greater kudu is a sub species of the Southern Greater, which it is not.

    I would like to encourage any potential hunters to feel free to hunt in the Eastern Cape as it is an awesome area to hunt and to be aware that SCI has a seperate trophy listing for Eastern Cape kudu in their (the hunters) favour, even though it has been placed under a wrong header.

    As proof I will be attaching a 133 page Doctoral Thesis as conducted under the supervision of Dr. Wouter van Hooven (Dean of the centre for Wildlife management at the University of Pretoria) as well as a additional supporting communication "quote" by Deon Furstenburg (previously senior lecturer at the university of UPE and currently the senior wildlife scientist at ARC Irene: B.Sc Zoology & Botany, B.Sc Wildlife management, B. Sc Hons., M. Sc Wildlife management & PhD) both well educated gentlemen, and personal mentors..................

    I would love to encourage all that are interested in broadening their knowledge base to read, assess,... and follow up with their own search as to whether or not what I have porvided is based on Factual research rather than hear-say.

    The research conducted, was based on mtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) testing on the entire southern Greater Kudu population in all the various regions including the Eastern Cape population.

    Or Rather the Molecular phylogeography and evolutionary history of the Southern Greater Kudu as part of the fullfilment of a PhD. and submitted to the Faculty of Natural and Agricultural Sciences, University of Pretoria. A world leader in consevation Wildlife Biology/Science research and most defenitly the Authority on African Wildlife.

    http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/submitted/etd-11242005-165353/unrestricted/thesis.pdf

    When working with DNA one needs to understand that all of us as well as all other mamals have varying DNA my DNA is most definitly not the same as my wifes or my brothers, there are certain similarities for the most part but they are not the same(finger printed) Exactly the same goes for every individual kudu, Genetically they are the same over the broad spectrum but there are no exact fingerprints on DNA between each individual animal to the next, What one will find is similarities between animals of the same species but each and every individual (animal or human is different) Even indentical twins do not have the exact same DNA..........FACT.

    I would like to quote the following paragraphs (with the Authors permission from the attached link) and I quote: "Four sub species have previously been described in the Greater Kudu, based on morphological features, From this study there is NO evidence to support the existence of populations, which could be viewed as Sub Species, results therefore call for a re examination of the traditionally recognised sub species."

    Key phrase being, "From this study there is NO evidence to support the existence of populations which could be viewed as Sub Species,"

    In addition to this I would like to add another quote which should most definetly vanquish any doubts as far as the credibility or rather the call for the so called listing of the Eastern cape sub species are concerned....... and I quote "Results from this study show that the populations from Namibia, Kimberly and the Eastern cape form a genetically distinct group, Although this group does not exhibit reciprocal monophyly of the mtDNA control region, efforts should be made towards preserving what appears to be a distinct evolutionary pathway. This group should certainly be regarded as a MU (management unit)"

    Please note it is not stated that it should be regarded as a subspecies in fact the contrary is clearly visible from the research conducted, but rather a management unit these would include the populations from Northern Namibia and Kimberly as well as the Eastern Cape............As additional support I will attach the following:

    Jaco,
    You are absolutely right on the money with the Eastern Cape kudu, There are no sub-species defined for the southern greater Kudu.
    Taxonomy

    Classification

    Class: MAMMALIA

    Supercohort: LAURASIATHERIA

    Cohort: FERUNGULATA

    Order: RUMINANTIA

    Superfamily: BOVOIDEA
    Family: BOVIDAE
    Sub-family: Bovinae
    Tribe: Tragelaphini
    Genus: Tragelaphus
    Species: melampus

    Kudu were first described from a specimen from the Kammiesberg, southern Namaqualand in the Cape of Good Hope and were classified in the genus Tragelaphus. Its name originates from the Hottentot or Khoi-khoi word å¾’u::du? Tragos the Greek for a he-goat and elaphos for a deer.

    There are two species
    the greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros
    the lesser kudu Tragelaphus imberbis

    The species name of the greater kudu originates from strephis, the Greek for twisting, and keras for animal horn and that of the lesser kudu from imberbis the Latin for unbearded, a reference to the absence of a mane on the throat. Three sub-species greater kudu are recognised namely
    the southern greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros strepsiceros
    the East African greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros bea
    the northern greater kudu Tragelaphus strepsiceros cottoni

    Other closely related species are
    the sitatunga Tragelaphus spekei
    the bongo Tragelaphus eurycerus
    the nyala Tragelaphus angasii
    the mountain nyala Tragelaphus buxtoni
    the bushbuck Tragelaphus scriptus
    the eland Tragelaphus oryx.

    Of these only the southern greater kudu, the nyala, the eland and the bushbuck occur naturally in the southern sub-region of Africa.

    Deon Furstenburg
    Senior Wildlife Scientist
    ARC-Irene
    e-mail: dfurs@mweb.co.za
    cell: 072 575 3289
    fax: 086 594 8761

    Further more I would like to add that any person interested in any additional information regarding this subject should feel free to contact me as I am in pssession of additional research as well as additional, well educated references, which are more than willing and most defenitly able to discuss any subject on this matter and shed additional light where needed.

    Once again currently there is no scientific proof/evidence that can conclude that the Eastern Cape Southern greater Kudu should be listed as a lone sub species. This was the point I was trying to get across from the onset of this thread and non other.

    BTW. I also like the darker coat.

    Be assured of only my ultimate best at all times.
     

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