DEER RIFLES IN AFRICA

Discussion in 'Up To .375' started by BARTFRNCS, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. BARTFRNCS

    BARTFRNCS AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    12
    Member of:
    RMEF DU SCI NRA
    Hunted:
    CAR CANADA MEXICO USA RSA
    I find it very interesting that people will spend 1000s on a hunt in Africa then want to bring a deer rifle!
  2. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    110
    Member of:
    NRA, DU, DSC
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania
    I find it very interesting the 7 by 57 has been killing game for over 100 years with a 175 grain bulllet at 2300 FPS but a .308 shooting a 180 grain bullet at 2450 FPS is inadequate.
  3. BARTFRNCS

    BARTFRNCS AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    12
    Member of:
    RMEF DU SCI NRA
    Hunted:
    CAR CANADA MEXICO USA RSA
    Instead of shooting your next Blue WB with either just send me a check for the trophy fee. well both fell better you wont have to track a wounded WB and I'll get some bullets for reloading.
  4. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    11
    My Photos:
    68
    Member of:
    NRA, NA Hunt Club
    Hunted:
    Tanzania, Botswana, Zimbabwe (2), Namibia, South Africa (2)
    One would think Blue Wildebeest were armor plated by this conversation.
  5. Bert the Turtle

    Bert the Turtle AH Veteran

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    2
    The results of a 243 Win, one Barnes TSX, my 9 year old son, imperfect but adequate shot placement, and 40 yards of follow-up.

    I'd be the first to admit that more rifle is less limiting, which I why I use a 30-06. I love the romance and intrigue of Africa, but the oft-repeated nonsense about the bulletproof nature of its animals is not part of the lore that I find interesting. Put a bullet through an important part of the circulatory system and an animal will die, full stop. Good bullet construction and heavier hitting rifles make that easier to do. A person has to know what he, his rifle, and his bullet together are capable of and work within those limits.

    I've no issue with any man's choice of rifle as long as he knows what he can and cannot do with it and works within those limits. I do find it unfortunate that "use enough gun" has probably done more harm than good in that many people show up to Africa with more gun than they can shoot well. Ask 100 experienced PHs if they think a 308 is adequate for plains game and I doubt you'll find a dozen who think it is not. Ask 100 PHs if they think a 375 is better IF THE PERSON CAN SHOOT IT AS WELL as his 308 and I doubt you'll find a dozen who think it is not.

    Rifle choice is a balancing act. If you have the ability to shoot a bigger rifle well, that is in my mind the best choice. If you have the ability to shoot a 30-06 well, that is a perfectly adequate choice. If you have the ability to shoot a 243 well, you better learn to be patient and choose shots wisely, for it is not forgiving.
  6. BARTFRNCS

    BARTFRNCS AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    12
    Member of:
    RMEF DU SCI NRA
    Hunted:
    CAR CANADA MEXICO USA RSA
    Well I'm going to say it again shooting is not an inate skill. Most people shoot less than a box a year(20 carts). That being said most people have no business shooting past 200 yds, even then its ifiy. I know this because as a former Drill SGT I have taught 1000s to shoot rifles pistols and machine guns. most people go small because they are scared of recoil which you cant get used to in 10 rounds a year. Whats the solution to the can I shoot pg with a bb gun syndrome? Invest some money time and effort into PRACTICE!
  7. Wolverine67

    Wolverine67 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    542
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    21
    Member of:
    SCI, SHAC, RW Guild
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, Poland, South Africa
    Well, practice are allways good, but it doesnt change the fact that a ph's nightmare are a client with a brand new 375 or 416 or similar...(Maybe with a muzzle brake as well...)
  8. Bert the Turtle

    Bert the Turtle AH Veteran

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    2
    Here is a point I agree with 100%!

    If people spent as much time on the range as they do arguing the differences between a 270 and a 30-06, the world would be a better place. And if I could only afford 2 rifles, I'd buy 1 and spend the rest on a good shooting school. I have no idea why so few people are willing to go to a good shooting school.
  9. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    20
    Hunted:
    South Africa (Limpopo, Free-State, North West, Northern Cape) and Botswana (Tuli Area; Selebi-Pikwe, and Tsabong regions)
    Ha ha! Yes, sometimes it seems the only thing capable of penetrating 30cm is the 50 cal. at short range!
  10. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    110
    Member of:
    NRA, DU, DSC
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania
    All African animals are bullet proof. This is my African battery.

    [​IMG]

    458 Lott. Practice on pigs in the US (500 grain monolithic solids at 2220 FPS only, the shields are tough). In Africa good for Impala, reed buck, bushbuck, baboon, etc but only if you use properly constructed AP rounds from Barnes.

    [​IMG]

    50 BMG Rifle. This is good for large plains game, leopard, and if you are insane maybe lion. Some wussie guys shoot the 460 Weatherby for large Plains Game, it is so embarrassing.

    [​IMG]

    For black death nothing less than a 20 MM will do. I prefer open sites but this gentleman has a scope on his rifle, it is just not traditional enough for me.

    And yes it is raining, so I can either spread my wisdom on the internet, go to work, or prepare my tax info for my accountant.

    Attached Files:

  11. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    5
    My Photos:
    72
    Member of:
    NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, France
    Mike, very nicely put together .... Thanks for sharing your wisdom, I guess I would have to know bullet weight on the 20mm before I would agree with taking black death with it.:p

    Anyway, good points made, practice, practice, practice, which I agree whole heartely. Deer season rolls around and you get an influcks of people you have not seen all year, I've seen it.

    I don't think most PH's are going to let a guy shoot over 200m. At least the one's I have met and spoken with. They would much rather stalk closer, say 100m, and let you take a more realistic shot. BART if you are taking 400m+ shots on game, then thats your cup of tea, that topic could be a completly new thread.

    As for the 308 not being enough gun, They take Moose and Elk using them here in the states, you really think a Wildebeest is tougher?
  12. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,747
    Likes Received:
    29
    My Photos:
    131
    Member of:
    sci int, basc
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    bartfrncs, may i ask why you seem so annoyed that people use what you call their deer rifle on a hunt? any ph you ask would prefer their client to bring the rifle they are comfortable with, i.e. the one they use the most, which for clients from the usa would be their deer rifle. as has been said it is about bullet placement which is a lot easier if you are using a rifle you are comfortable with, as opposed to the new whizzbang magnum you bought just to go to africa with. my son shot his puku and lechwe with his .22 hornet, both one shot kills, and his waterbuck with his .223 which went 50yards and went down. i am not advocating these calibres for these animals,what i am saying if you put the bullet in the correct place your .270, .308 or 30-06 are fine. the myth with wildebeest and zebra being bulletproof is due to the fact they are large animals ,and if you dont hit them in the correct place, yes they will dissapear into the distance, but guess what if you hit them correctley they go down the same as any other animal that is shot in the correct place
  13. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    110
    Member of:
    NRA, DU, DSC
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania
    This is my real opinion on rifles in Africa. Bring the largest rifle you can accurately and comfortably shoot. My two gun battery is a 470 Nitro Double and 375 H&H for PG. The 375 has also been used to shoot two buffalo. My wife brings a 7 by 57 because that is what she is comfortable shooting.

    Practice, practice, and practice more. Dry firing helps, run drills cycling your bolt or reloading your double. Get the rifle off the bench. The difference between a 3/4" group and a 1" from the bench is meaningless in the field. Shoot offhand, kneeling, leaning against a tree, off shooting sticks, hell I oncle shot a warthog prone with a 416 Remington.

    Shoot premium bullets, that is far more important than many other factors. It is the bullet that does the work.

    So yes your deer rifle is fine, I killed a leopard with my 300 Win Mag, it is also one of my deer rifles.

    BTW on all of my trips and quite a few animals killed the only animal I have lost has been a blue wildebeest. Short story, poor shot placement with a 375 H&H.
  14. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,325
    Likes Received:
    7
    My Photos:
    67
    Member of:
    SCI
    Hunted:
    Canada (AB, SK, NWT, BC) USA (NM, TX) South Africa (Limpopo, KZN, Free State, Eastern Cape, Northen Cape), Kyrgyzstan
    Mike that is the best advice of all. A big blauser that you are afraid of is no good, bullets in the guts dont work and crappy bullets are no good. A nice compromise of managable recoil and premium bullets and accurate shooting from a responsible distance and angle will get the job done nicely every time.
  15. monish

    monish AH Elite

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    1093
    Member of:
    AfricaHunting.com
    Hunted:
    Tanzania, Nepal, Canada,
    WDM Bell would have had given a perfect just ful reply to your initiated thread , my friend .....

    "ITS NOT THE RIFLE BUT THE MAN BEHIND THE RIFLE "

    Hope you would agree ......???

    Monish
  16. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    73
    My Photos:
    396
    Member of:
    KZN Hunters Assoc
    Hunted:
    Namibia, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, USA, Mexico
    A Buffalo at close range should deal with it quite effectively.


    No matter what you do this, combined with good tutoring will solve the problem.
  17. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes Received:
    24
    My Photos:
    29
    Hunted:
    Norway, Sweden, England, South Africa
    In my experience is people very different when it comes to recoil.
    Also between people shooting and practicing a lot.
    Some of us enjoy recoil, others just can't handle it.

    I have a friend that is a very good shot and do it very well in different shooting competitions both with a shotgun and with a rifle.
    He is shooting thousands and thousands of shots every year.
    He shoots well under competition pressure and while hunting.
    But give him something larger than a 308 and his shooting deteriorate rapidly.

    It is outside his comfort zone, no matter how much he tries to practice with something larger.

    Send him on a PG hunt with a 6.5x55 or a 308 and I am 100% sure he will one-shot every animal with good shots.
    If you give him a 9.3x62 or larger instead, the risk of long days tracking wounded animals has become rather high.
  18. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Eastern Cape, South Africa
    My Photos:
    58
    Member of:
    PHASA ; SCI ; DSC ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Namibia, New Zealand
    Gentleman,
    I believe that the majority of foreign hunters out there give our animals far too much credit. The two most critical factors is a premium bullet that will not fail punched into the correct area of the animal's anatomy. Done.

    When it comes to calibre choice, the most important rule is to acknowledge that every single calibre out there has its own capability. Under no circumstance should you push these limits of its capability. You could hunt any plains game animal in Africa with something as small as a .243 Win. But dont expect it to punch through 1.5 yds of gut on a heavily quartering away shot. Take a shot on a broadside standing animal, and that animal will go down just as quick as being shot with a .300 Win Mag.

    Premium Bullets + Shot Placement = Game Over

    Best Regards
    Marius Goosen
  19. dvdegeorge

    dvdegeorge AH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    North American Hunting Club, NRA. RMEF, NWTF, SCI
    Very well stated Marius! I think that pretty much sums things up for game on every continent in the world....
  20. Bert the Turtle

    Bert the Turtle AH Veteran

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    2
    Marius, thank you for your words of wisdom. It is my opinion that the "toughness" of African animals is something invented by safari writers to make their stories more exciting and perpetuated by some in in the trade to sell hunts and/or help clients justify bad shooting or poor bullet performance.

    Your animals are the same as ours. A hit in the vitals kills them, a hit anywhere else wounds them. There are many combinations of guns and bullets that will do it; some will afford the hunter a larger window of possible shots than others. All things being equal, a person will bag more game with a 375 than with a recurve bow, but both are valid and satisfying forms of hunting. The client needs to decide what limitations he wants to accept and then choose his weapon accordingly.

    MY picture showing the results of my son's single shot from his 243 got lost from my earlier post and I've attached it here.


    View attachment 9986

Share This Page