Deciding on Guns for First Safari

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Saul, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    I've put many more than 1K thru my rifles and there isn't any repairs or tune ups needed. I think you're underestimating them a bunch.
    The Lott is more powerful than the 450-470 NE's but they've been poking big holes in things for over a century and they work.

    edit to add; Some of my old rifles are from the 1870's on up and I suspect that they've had many thousands of rounds thru them by now and I doubt that they've ever had much shop time.
     
  2. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I agree with you Saul. I think almost any round can be put in a modern double rifle successfully. I have a Blaser S2 with .416/500 and .375 barrels. The .416 is rimmed but it is also a 100 yard rifle. The .375 uses the tabs, but it is a 300 yard rifle with the scope attached. Everything has plusses and minuses. Your 300 is a fabulous PG rifle. If it is legal where you are hunting, it is also excellent for braining a hippo. Either double will work on the elephant, but were I going to use one it would be the .458. You will be within 50 yards and you will have time for two quick shots. That big .458 offers you a bit of margin - particularly if you are breaking a hip with that second shot. Buffalo are a bit of a riddle. Either double will do the job decisively. However a scoped .375 (or something similar) will offer you an extra 100 yards if that 44 incher decides to pose over open ground. And I really do hate the big weatherby - particularly in a weatherby designed rifle :) .
     
  3. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    __________________________________

    Yes, AkMike is correct; this is one of the major things that can and does happen at times with double rifles using non rimmed, flanged, cartridges. Should it happen at a critical time (called Murphey's law), with dangerous game quickly coming for you, that could lead to a difficult day in the bush!
     
  4. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    Saul, " the .458 Lott is supposedly more powerful than the .450 and .470 NE."

    Yes, but not needed. After all, dead is dead, and a .450 or .470 will do the job as well as the 458 Lott, with a lot less fuss. A guy carrying the most powerful, showy Weatherby rifle, or similar, is generally a sign of someone who lacks real hunting experience; someone who places way too much value on killing power. Most real hunters have moved beyond the show and tell days of Roy Weatherby and his super high velocity hype; anyone still sporting such rifles, is a sign of an inexperienced hunter. How many professional hunters in Africa, do you suppose use a big bore Weatherby rifle daily these days?
     
  5. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    Red Leg: "I agree with you Saul. I think almost any round can be put in a modern double rifle successfully. I have a Blaser S2 with .416/500 and .375 barrels."
    ______________________________________
    Yes, almost any round can be put in a modern double rifle successfully, but the question is over the long run, how long will that modern double rifle hold up to the extreme pressures involved with such belted cartridges being discussed here? Certainly, not anywhere nearly as long as they would hold up with lower pressure cartridges, such as originally used by the British who developed the cartridges most suitable for double rifles. Fact is, your .500/.416 Rigby cartridge was developed by the Germans, Kreighoff, to allow a more suitable rimmed lower pressure cartridge to be used in a double rifle, while giving at same time, same performance as regular .416 Rigby cartridge, rather than using the regular .416 Rigby cartridge in said rifle, since the .416 Rigby cartridge was originally developed for bolt action rifles, so it has no rim, and has undesirable excess breech pressure for a double rifle, modern or otherwise. Finally, you can't really compare a modern Blaser S2 action type, which you have, with all other modern double rifle action types, for the S2 design pivoting block action, developed a good long time ago by one of the most talented German gun maker of all time, is the strongest double rifle design ever. Its design compares more favorably with a best quality very strong falling block single shot rifle action. It is not favored by many modern shooters, as they consider the S2 to be ugly, but it certainly is not weak.
     
  6. Saul

    Saul AH Veteran

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    Basically, I am hearing three sides on this debate: those that think the rifle is fine, those that think I should buy a .450, and those that think I should by a .416 bolt eifle. My personal opinion is that I want a double rifle. I don't want to hunt elephant with a bolt rifle at all. Call me nostalgiac, but that just the way I want to do it. A lot have people have said that I won't need more than a .450. My problem with this, and tell me if I sound completely moronic here, is that I don't really want my PH to shoot my elephant. I know it sounds petty, but if I'm paying 40k+ to hunt elephant, I damn well want to be the one to shoot it. Almost every time I watch Ivan Carter, it pretty much involves his client shooting the elephant once, and then him finishing it off as it falls at his feet. On top of that, my all time hunting idol is Ernest Hemingway. He carries a .577 if I'm not mistaken. While I'm not that crazy, I still want to know Im shooting an elephant gun if you know what I mean. I'm pretty sure Ivan Carter shoots a .600 Overkill but correct me I I'm wrong here.
    To sum it up, I want a double rifle that will put elephants down with authority. There were several reasons I want the the Perugini & Visini .458 double rifle, besides the fact that it is a double. First and foremost, the availability of high quality low-priced ammo is much better than for something like a .450 from what I have seen. Secondly, the ability to load it with 458 win mag allows me flexibility to hunt lions, but without unnecessary recoil. Thirdly, it will put a serious wallop on elephant and cape buff. Finally, a friend is offering me a great deal on one at only 39k. While I could pretend that money isn't an issue, I would be lying, so when I get a really good deal, it is definitely enticing. Plus, to the people who say that reloading would be problematic, I really doubt that I would have to reload during an attack. I know I'm completely inexperienced in African dangerous game hunting, but common sense wise, I seriously doubt that if both my PH and I can't stop the charge after two barrels of .458 Lott, I doubt I'd have enough time reload anyway.
     
  7. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    There is NO such thing as overkill, as you soon learn if, when, you find yourself in a sticky situation hunting dangerous game. If I were PH with numerous clients killing elephant, I would, for sure, carry at least a .500; more likely a .577 (I love .577 and have no problem with it, and if hired to work for numerous clients wanting to take elephant, the .577 would be with me; maybe two of them, with one carried by me and other carried by man behind me, for quick exchange, if needed, especially should I find myself having a really bad day, and elephant bearing down on me with anger in its heart). If, and only IF-- YOU-- do your part in placing bullet where it needs to be, will elephant be put down with authority; if you don't put bullet where it needs to be, it possibly won't happen, elephant won't be put down with authority, from even the most potent shoulder fired rifle a man can shoot, not even your beloved .458 Lott. If you are overly concerned about putting the elephant down with authority, get an elephant rifle with authority, a .577; maybe that will make you feel better and enjoy your hunt more. Dangerous game AND YOU TOO will notice no difference in killing power between a .458 Winchester and a .450 NE or .470 NE--paper ballistics are meaningless in this regard. Dangerous game and you, WILL notice uptick in killing power between a .450/.470 or .458 Win. or Lott, and a .500 NE. Hunt with a double rifle; you will never go back to a bolt rifle, except, perhaps, for some odd occasional hunting situation. Pay far less attention to caliber; "power" of your proposed cartridge, and FAR more attention to your your practicing at length with shooting rifle/cartridge you plan using with elephant hunt. Don't stop practicing, until for certain you can place bullet in vital spot needed, at various probable ranges; that should make it unnecessary for the PH to kill "your" elephant for you; make it clear to him in advance, that you don't want him shooting, unless needed to save you all from disaster. If you seriously think you need more than .450/.470 to get the job done on elephant, take a .500 NE. to feel more assured that you have an elephant gun, so to speak, or take the aforementioned .577 to feel even better. Again, if you hunt in intense African heat, while using a .458 Winchester, and cartridge sticks in chambers, due to increased breech pressure from that heat, remember that I told you so. A .450 NE, .470 NE, .500 NE or even a .577 NE wont' do that! Stop reading about elephant hunting, and stop watching videos of it, or you may very well be so paranoid when the exciting event happens, with elephant on the end of your sights, that you foul it up. Instead, spend that time practice shooting until you are most confident, that will help you way more than anything else.
     
  8. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I fully understand that the .416/500 is a lower pressure RIMMED caliber - that is what that thingamajig is around the edge of the base of the round right?. I was simply using the S2 as an example of two of the types of rounds found in modern sxs's - one of which was rimless. (Horror of horrors my Blaser also has 30-06 barrels!) I can't believe we would advise a man with ready access to a .458 Perugini and Visini (a very modern and well made rifle) to go out a get yet another double to shoot an elephant on this hunt. By the way, I will be using my .375 barrels (with scope no less) to hunt buff in Moz this summer.
     
  9. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    saul if you are going to buy a double as opposed to borrowing one dont get one for a rimless calibre, and i dont understand your problem with the .450 or 470 they are more than plenty for ele. thousands have been shot with both of these cals by game dept people , ph`s and ordinary people. i would get one of thses cals built for you. you say $39,000.00 is a good deal for you, for that sort of money you can buy a very nice 2nd hand .470 or have one built by several companies to your exact specs. heym, verney-carron, chapuis, searcy.....you will get a very nice double from any of these companies for less than your budget, or with engraving and nicer wood an extremely nice double for what you can spend. its ok talking about .577 and .600 but they are more specialist calibres really developed for the old time professional ivory hunters and if you look at how many doubles were actually built for those cals in the old days it was very few, they also weigh 13lbs min to 16lbs which i guarantee will feel 3 times that weight after you have carried them for more than an hour. if you want go max a .500 which you could prob get built to around 11lbs minimum, a .470 you could get to about 10.5lbs and i promise after 6 or more hours of walking around with that over your shoulder you will still be wanting a lighter weight :D the problem is even if you have a .700 nitro ,if the bullet isnt in the right place the ele, buff will still dissapear into the distance, and especially with an ele the ph will back up if it doeasnt go straight down, especially if you are trying for a brain shot as that ele will gap it into the distance at a rate of knots, with a good chance you will not see it again. that means goodbye to any trophies for your $40,000.00. discuss the back up shot situation with your ph at the beginning of your hunt before you set foot out of camp, just so there is no confusion and upset on your side. as for being able to shoot that double with .458 win and .458 lott i would have thought they wouldnt shoot anywhere near each other, as a double is regulated for one load and they are so different in velocity . a .308 will put an ele "down with authority" if you put it in the brain, so that part as i said is up to you not the size of the bullet. :)
     
  10. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    _____________________________


    By the way, you are talking about a .500/.416 cartridge; not a .416/.500, you have it reversed. This outstanding cartridge was developed by Kreighoff of German, and is shown and discussed on their website--very informative; take a look at it. Again they developed it specifically to be able to use the .416 Rigby bullets at .416 performance ballistics, in a DOUBLE RIFLE, rather than using the common .416 Rigby cartridge, because it puts more breech pressure, more stress, on a double rifle. Too, they developed it to have a rim on the .500/.416, which makes it impossible for the pawls to slip over rimless cartridge, such as it can and does sometimes do on the .416 Rigby round, the .458 Winchester round, and similar other cartridges, which would be a horrible thing to happen, if you happen to have a cape buff. bearing down on you at the time, intent on killing you. Again, one cannot compare apples to oranges, the modern S2 double rifle action is vastly superior in strength to any and all other modern double rifle actions, even though some people don't want to hear of such a fact, and they can withstand pressures other modern double rifles cannot, due to the outstanding old original design, borrowed by Blaser for their modern S2 ---never mind that some consider the S2 as ugly. The Perugini and Visini double rifle's cost is mostly tied up in best engraving; yet it uses same high quality modern high strength alloy steels in its construction, as does other Italian, German, and French modern double rifles, none of which will hold up through years of firing intense cartridges such as the .416 Rigby, the .458 Winchester, the .30-06 Springfield, etc. THAT VERY REASON IS WHY KREIGHOFF DEVELOPED THE .500/.416 TO BEGIN WITH, RATHER THAN TO SIMPLY USE THE READILY AVAILABLE .416 RIGBY CARTRIDGE FOR THEIR RIFLES.
     
  11. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Sigh - forums are horrible for this sort of discussion.

    Yes, I know the intent of the .416 for the K-gun and that is why it was also chosen for the S2. Mine shoots overlapping 4 shot groups at seventy yards. I also absolutely agree that a rimmed cartridge is generally a better choice for a double than a "normal" round. HOWEVER, I think it is ridiculous to tell a man with access to a quality double, chambered in .458, that he should reject it out of hand and go buy a .470 for a single trip to Africa to bust an elephant. The other point I was making is that everything is a trade-off. For instance, I am not bringing the .416 barrels on my hunt in August. Not because they wouldn't be great on a buff, but because I want the versatility of the .375. It shoots a right barrel clover-leaf and 1.5 - 2.0 inch composite groups at 100 yards. It does that because it is scoped, and is therefore a true 250 yard rifle for the PG (including sable) we also will be hunting.

    Were I the PH - tasked with the professional responsibility for the whole party, and were I using a double rifle, it would indeed be a rimmed round. However, I am the client in this scenario, and my job is to get that first shot (and second if needed) in as accurately as possible from whatever range is feasable. And yes, I am giving up some reload time for that accuracy. It is a trade-off.

    To my mind, Saul has an extremely adequate, even if not perfect, elephant solution in the .458. There is no need for him to buy a .470 or other rimmed rifle for this coming hunt.
     
  12. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    but redleg saul says in his post #26 his friend is offering to sell him the .458 double for "39k" , so he is looking to buy a rifle which is why i said what i said in my post above #29.......:)
     
  13. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Can't help but look at the common sense of the issue. If you want to pay 39K for a .458 go ahead but I will say this once, I would never do it. Buy a .470 NE or one of the .450 and go hunt with a Heym or something, use the extra money TO DO MORE HUNTING AND SHOOTING. Problem solved. Shot placement is everything, power does not make up for bad shot placement.

    Plenty of elephants were killed with 7x57 back in the day
     
  14. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Oh - ok I'm stupid - Saul, Spike and DoubleRifleJack are right. If you are buying a double and are hunting open sights then buy a rimmed DG caliber.
     
  15. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Eric, you may be on to something! :cool:If I had 39k extra, I would spend more days in Africa and use what rifles I have. The most money I have in any one gun is probably my CZ .404, at $2500. It would do for the biggest ele in Africa, just fine.
     
  16. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    There is also another factor here that hasn't been discussed. Saul mentioned the availability of low cost ammo for this 458.
    There is a very good possibility that this ammo will not shoot to the regulation of the rifle since it's primarily a bolt gun round and not loaded for DRs.

    For 39K there is a wide selection of high end best quality Drs available.
     
  17. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Oh, I fully agree with you Mike. Excellent point!
     
  18. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    I've mentioned it before and I'll do it again to shown this point.
    I have a top if the line Winkler DR (Ferlach, Austria)in 300 H&H. Right after I got it I found 1 box of Federal ammo and ran down to the range to try it out. BIG Mistake. The ammo is way too hot for a DR. Both rounds stuck in the chambers and the pawls ripped thru the rims leaving the bras stuck in the chambers.
    Once home a light tap with a cleaning rod loosened them.

    But if this had been in a DG chambering and extraction was a matter of being toe jam or walking away. I'd have been toe jam for some nasty critter.
    This rifle will be fine for all PG but I will never have a rimless round for anything that could cause problems.
     
  19. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    FYI, Searcy ahs a beautiful 577 finished and for sale right noe and there is another work of art VC in 577 for sale also. Both in the sub 20K range.
     
  20. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    heym usa wbsite has some vc inc a nice .500 that i would have if the readys were around..., searcy and a very nice heym in .450, all for less than half of the P&V .458. i know what i would be buying....oh crap now i cant decide between the VC .500 or the heym .450......:biggrin2:
     

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