Cartridges We Can Live Without...

another 5,850 and you will know what your on about and you can move out of the cave......;)

Man, I've got a ways to go!

Good thing I have enough components to get me there!
 
I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately the mass marketing retail machine needs to hype the latest and greatest variation of every theme. That is probably a good thing though, if it weren't that way the unemployment offices would be overflowing with out of work gun writers.

Ultimately it depends on which criteria we give the most weight to. If ballistics, accuracy, and bullet performance get the most weight, it becomes a different conversation. One that will eventually drown in the minutiae of every individual's anecdotal evidence of why their favorite cartridge is the best; hence one of the reasons why we love AH!...

...Of course since this is all hypothetical I am reasonably sure that none of it matters beyond the pure entertainment value!

Peace

Bravo!
 
I myself am glad that we don't have to choose from one or two cartridges in the shooting world, how dull that would be.

I even like shooting wildcat cartridges where I have to size, trim, and fire form my own brass out of a different parent case. While they can be a pain in the rear they are fun to shoot and even more enjoyable when you take a animal with one knowing that very few others are shooting that round.

While the .300 and .375 H&H are quite capable for any animal on the face of the earth how about the other rounds that Holland and Holland came out with such as the .275 H&H mag, or even the .244 H&H mag along with a few others.

Now that .244 H&H would be a fun round to play around with.
 
Apropos of Velo Dog's comments on the .30-06 vs the T65 (7.62x51/.308 Winchester) cartridge ... the .30-06 tends to feed more reliably than the newer cartridge; and reality beats advertising when you are trying to kill something more mobile (and possibly more dangerous) than a static bull's-eye target. :D Beers: :A Stirring: ... :D
 
I must not be a very observant handloader.

My record books indicate I have put together 4,150 rounds of various belted magnums, starting in 1974.

I have never noticed higher labor or low life-span of the brass.

I have observed the same thing. In fact, my records indicate that my 300H&H brass lasts longer than my 30-06 brass!
 
If I listed all of the cartridges I think are needless duplicates of ones that not only already existed and as a group they perfectly addressed each category of hunting conditions and animal size/tenacity, etc., but in some cases are actually inferior to their older predecessor in some way, I would probably get kicked off of this excellent forum, as if I had declared: "Everyone's Momma is a trollop".
So, don't get me started on all these "latest and greatest" cartridges, because generally speaking, they remind me of that story: "The King's New Suit" - LOL.

What if the manufacturers stopped making rifle cartridge calibers less than 100 years old??? I could still be happy, but most couldn't!!!
 
)


Hi again FairChase,

There are many but, the .280 Remington is one good example to illustrate what I meant by the "latest and greatest" comment.
It was introduced around 1957 as the "7mm Remington Express" but later changed names to .280 because several dim bulbs fired one each in 7mm Remington Magnum caliber rifles resulting is split brass, damaged rifles and a few injured dim bulbs.
The 7x64 Brenneke was introduced about 45 years earlier and is the ballistic twin of the .280 Remington.
These two cartridges even look so much alike as to be difficult to tell apart when they are standing side by side.

The .260 Remington is another "latest and greatest" one that inspires nothing more than a lazy yawn from me.
We already had it's ballistic twin the 6.5x55 Mauser, for about 73 years prior to the Remington version so what's Remington's point? (sales hype/sales gimmick, that's what).

The 7mm-08 seems like a silly cartridge to me when compared to the already excellent and well established around the world 7x57 Mauser, (introduced about 88 years earlier than the ballistic twin 7mm-08), especially if I want to place five 175 grain loads into my rifles magazine.
You can forget about that with many rifles chambered in 7mm-08 because they are almost always built on short actions/short magazine box format.

What do any of the "latest and greatest" .375 caliber cartridges do in practical hunting situations that the original H&H version has not been doing since about 1912?
Nothing that I can see, except some of them kick harder and all of them make finding factory loaded ammunition difficult to impossible, especially in remote places like bush Alaska, bush Canada and much of Africa.
Can't speak for Northern Australia, where buffalo hunting is done but my best guess is that the H&H is available, not so much the "latest and greatest" .375 caliber cartridges though.

And I agree with you on the WSSM cartridges.
But for belted cartridges, at least 4 of them feed and eject very well with a belt and actually need it to maintain head space (.300 H&H, .375 H&H, .458 Winchester and .458 Lott).
There is a pile of cartridges that only have a belt for "sales hype" purposes (7mm Remington Magnum, .300 Winchester, plus many others, including the whole Weatherby line of calibers) - total sales gimmick but it sold product like "Doctor Soandso's Snake Oil, guaranteed to cure everything" did back in the Travelling Medicine Show days.
In other words those belted cartridges surely did make their proprietors rich.

Regarding the .30-06 vs .308, I agree that they perform similarly on deer, hog, black bear, caribou and similar size game around the world.
I've shot deer with the .308 and .30-06 both, plus hogs, caribou and African "Plains Game" with the .30-06.
The obvious similarity in performance on such critters is doubtless because this class of animal is not likely to tell the difference between having been struck with a 150 to 165 grain bullet at about 2750 fps vs 2850 fps.
I suppose 100 fps probably means about nothing when you're already closer to 3,000 fps than you are to 2,000 fps.
Conversely I can understand why military administrations prefer the .308 (aka: 7.62x51 NATO) over the .30-06.
It uses less powder, and brass to achieve nearly the same ballistics with its 147 grain bullet vs .30-06 and 150 gr bullet.
When you're loading up literally billions of rounds for war, these thousands of tons of materials saved become very important.
This is not to mention the steel they save in making shorter receivers on all those machineguns.

However, strictly as hunting cartridges, personally I will always prefer the .30-06 due to its ease of handling 220 grain bullets.
In that regard, the .308 is about useless because most hunting rifles chambered for it have too short of magazine box to fit a longer bullet than about 180 grains.
Likewise, even if the magazine was long enough, the cartridge does not hold enough commonly available powder to get a 220 gr bullet moving fast enough to make me happy.
The .30-06 conversely both fits factory loaded 220 gr cartridges into the average hunting rifle magazine as if designed for them (imagine that) and they typically leave the muzzle of same at around 2350 to 2400 fps - muey efectivo.
This load I have a fair sprinkling of experience with, including in Africa (sport hunting and culling both) and I am very fond of it.
It is still popular here in Alaska for moose and although I have not shot a black bear with it, I am told it is one of the best in .30-06 for cleanly taking them with one shot and yet without ruining a lot of meat.
Long boring story short, I guess I'm saying that I see no advantage to the .308 as a hunting cartridge and do see some definite disadvantage as described above, when compared to the .30-06.

I apologize for the length of this rant and I will now stand by for a sound thrashing from those who at least disagree, not to mention true believers in: "newer is always better".

Cheers,
Velo If It Already Works Don't Fix It Dog.
Velo Dog
One cartridge I can happily live without is the 243 Winchester or any of the 6mms. They're to big for little game and ain't big enough for medium game. Or it wasn't for all the hype and hoop la Winchester made about it being a dual purpose cartridge (to me it serves no useful purpose) the 25 caliber that's was around 40 years before it would still be going strong.
Bullshit can make anything look good with enough noise. If you want to introduce something new just say the old is crap and the new will do better. Say it often enough and people believe it. Throw in a couple of so called expert's and it done.
The old stuff still kills just as well but the bullshit wins.
Cheers mate Bob
 
What if the manufacturers stopped making rifle cartridge calibers less than 100 years old??? I could still be happy, but most couldn't!!!
Can we make that 80 years old or my beloved Whelen would be excluded.
Bob
 
I believe that there is 1 cartridge , which we ALL can happily live with out :
The .460 Weatherby magnum .

As much as I personally dislike the .458 Winchester magnum and the .423 Mauser ... I would not actually wish to see them gone . With a few hacks , the .458 Winchester magnum ( In modern times ) can be made to be ... more or less reliable . The .423 Mauser still makes for an excellent calibre ... Against Neelgai and Bengal Bush Boar .
 
I believe that there is 1 cartridge , which we ALL can happily live with out :
The .460 Weatherby magnum .

As much as I personally dislike the .458 Winchester magnum and the .423 Mauser ... I would not actually wish to see them gone . With a few hacks , the .458 Winchester magnum ( In modern times ) can be made to be ... more or less reliable . The .423 Mauser still makes for an excellent calibre ... Against Neelgai and Bengal Bush Boar .

Major Khan,

My friend, I urge you if you ever get the chance in the future please give my beloved .458 Winchester a second chance!
Believe me, in 2020 the old warhorse is a horse of a different colour!

From a lot of the stories I've read from years ago, it seems that the .458 either worked well - or failed miserably!

BUT...

With modern powders and the access to great bullets like the Barnes, CEB and Woodleigh to name a few, it just seems to work now.

I have personally loaded the Woodleigh 500gn PP to over 2200fps and my go-to load for the .458 is the
480gn Woodleigh RNSP at an absolute spot-on 2150fps.

I am actually working on a new load at the moment for an upcoming Buffalo cull hunt in Australia's NT.
This load consists of the 550gn Woodleigh and Benchmark 2 powder and this should reach 2100fps in my 24' barrel...

If you ever find yourself in Australia it will be my absolute pleasure to take you out for a Sambar hunt... using my .458 Winchester Magnum with my handholds...

Let's see if we can't restore your faith in the old girl...!

Kindest regards,

Russ
 
Major Khan,

My friend, I urge you if you ever get the chance in the future please give my beloved .458 Winchester a second chance!
Believe me, in 2020 the old warhorse is a horse of a different colour!

From a lot of the stories I've read from years ago, it seems that the .458 either worked well - or failed miserably!

BUT...

With modern powders and the access to great bullets like the Barnes, CEB and Woodleigh to name a few, it just seems to work now.

I have personally loaded the Woodleigh 500gn PP to over 2200fps and my go-to load for the .458 is the
480gn Woodleigh RNSP at an absolute spot-on 2150fps.

I am actually working on a new load at the moment for an upcoming Buffalo cull hunt in Australia's NT.
This load consists of the 550gn Woodleigh and Benchmark 2 powder and this should reach 2100fps in my 24' barrel...

If you ever find yourself in Australia it will be my absolute pleasure to take you out for a Sambar hunt... using my .458 Winchester Magnum with my handholds...

Let's see if we can't restore your faith in the old girl...!

Kindest regards,

Russ
I would consider it to be an utmost privilege , Russ . As a matter of fact ... It is only after reading about your and @Timbo 's excellent experiences with the .458 Winchester magnum , that I have come to slowly develop a grudging respect for the cartridge . In all probability ... When loaded with 480 grain Woodleigh or Hornady bullets , it should be perfectly alright .
 
There are a few European cartridges that seem to have been excluded in this discussion but perhaps should be mentioned. The 7x64 is a design that got everything right the first time. The .280 Remington went through several design changes, but has no real reason for existence because the 7x64 did it all many years previously. The same can be said for the 9.3x62 and .35 Whelen. I like the .35 Whelen, but since learning about its older more capable big brother I seldom use it any more.
 
There are a few European cartridges that seem to have been excluded in this discussion but perhaps should be mentioned. The 7x64 is a design that got everything right the first time. The .280 Remington went through several design changes, but has no real reason for existence because the 7x64 did it all many years previously. The same can be said for the 9.3x62 and .35 Whelen. I like the .35 Whelen, but since learning about its older more capable big brother I seldom use it any more.

What design changes did the 280 Rem undergo?
 
Tarbe, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 280 was designed for auto loading rifles with low pressure loads and a 165gr rn bullet. When that marketing idea flopped Remington switched to calling it "7mm Express" and that flopped too. There was a moment of confusion in that era and I saw Remington rifles marked 7mm-06 as well. Then they called it .280 again and dropped the RN bullets and loaded heavier bullets with a spitzer. Then another company took the basic .280 and "Ackley improved" it and loaded it to higher pressures. None of that was necessary with the 7x64 already well proven and doing it all.
 
Tarbe, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 280 was designed for auto loading rifles with low pressure loads and a 165gr rn bullet. When that marketing idea flopped Remington switched to calling it "7mm Express" and that flopped too. There was a moment of confusion in that era and I saw Remington rifles marked 7mm-06 as well. Then they called it .280 again and dropped the RN bullets and loaded heavier bullets with a spitzer. Then another company took the basic .280 and "Ackley improved" it and loaded it to higher pressures. None of that was necessary with the 7x64 already well proven and doing it all.

I guess our definitions of "design change" are just different!

If the SAAMI pressure changes and the name changes, it is a new cartridge in my book.
 
I'd almost say that it's a better question to ask what cartridgs we do 'need' rather than the huge and expansive list of those which we do not.

Now I think that actually, as far as hunting goes, if I said to you all that the only 5 calibres you are allowed are:

.22lr
.223 Rem
30-06
375H&H
458lott

Then actually, you'd all get on with it and shoot the exact same number and type of beasts as you do now. Now I for one would not welcome such a limited selection, as the only cartridges listed that I have any fondness for are .22lr, .223 and .375, but I don't deny that I'd be able to hunt everything on my bucket list worldwide without issue.

So that's the bottom line. All we really need is 1x varmint, 1x small game, 1x medium game, 1x DG and 1x stopping cartridge. These 5 are picked simply out of popularity (assumed or real). Can anyone think of another cartridge niche that we 'need' that isn't adequately addressed by this list?

(I'd say that for Target Shooting there's also a space for a fast high BC 7mm or 6.5 plus a couple of high BC high energy long range propositions (.338Lap & 50BMG perhaps. 30-06 will fill in for .308class and .223 will cover off the small calibre BR chamberings. For pistols you get 9mm and 44Mag - also for a lever gun chambering. Shotgun 12Ga.)

So ther you go! All you need is 5 cartridges for all hunting and 10 tops for all shooting disciplines. Everything else is flim flam and marketing I say!

Al.
 
Al, you are correct of course. But I have a fondness for single shot and Double rifles. So I "need" my 7x57r, 9.3x74r and .450-400. Makes no logical sense, to anyone but me.
 

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