Can any South African weapon owners verify the benefit of joining a dedicated shooters or dedicated

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Rohan, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Hi Hunters.

    Happy new year from me and enjoy your 2012 hunting trips!!!

    I would like to know if anyone from RSA can say for sure that supporting documents like being a 'dedicated shooter' or 'dedicated hunter' will definitely improve the application process or better motivate the need for a rifle or weapon....EVEN WHEN ONE DOES NOT OWN MORE THAN THE FOUR PRESCRIBED RIFLES (OR 3 RIFLES + 1 SHOTGUN) AND A HANDGUN that necessitates such a status.

    Here is my understanding:

    -I believe its certainly better to get a dedicated hunters/shooters status anyway to improve my overall understanding and handling of my weapon in the field.
    -It will benefit me in the industry and improve my skills.
    -I do not need it (even though I want it) if I apply for a weapon as long as I meet the criterea mentioned above ie if I do not own or am not in the process of applying for MORE than the prescribed amount of weapons (4 'sport' weapons and 1 'self-defence').
    -I will do at least the dedicated hunters course for sure anyway, but for now I have to work carefully and put my priorities in order and only do what is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to apply for a .375 and shotgun (I have applied for a .303 and .44spl already without a 'dedicated' status).

    #Any advice on the last calibre choice? Supressed .222 maybe...?#

    Here is what some people have said/what I have heard(hearsay) from dedicated shooters and dedicated hunters in RSA:

    -If you get a dedicated shooters/hunters status your application for a firearm will be processed sooner because of the motivation and 'backing' by certain shooting institutions.
    -People have been getting their licenses approved within three months because of their status even though they don't legally require that status to own more than the prescribed amount of weapons (rubbish???)

    Here is what I think (not what I know):

    -The SAPS do checks to verify that the application is true and correct and that one does not have a criminal record etc...
    -How can a dedicated shooters status 'speed' that process up? It makes no sense... It certainly puts one in a better light and shows that one is infact a 'dedicated shooter', but...

    The point of the police doing all these checks is to ascertain for sure that:

    -one is not a criminal (or have a criminal record whereby having a weapon in the future is not a good idea)
    -one did not lie on the application
    -one is competent to handle and use the firearm for the specified purpose etc...

    How can a dedicated shooters status 'speed that up', it should still take the same amount of time due to all the paperwork. Do the police then just read that one is a dedicated shooter and then forget about doing the background check???? I think not.

    I think the SAPS do their work where required, and as of late I have been hearing good news about the firearm departments at the SAPS and I salute the men and women who have gone unnoticed in trying to amend certain flaws in the system by working overtime and going the extramile to make sure that you and I get our thundersticks in a relatively good time-frame!

    I understand the purpose of having a dedicated shooters/hunters status...but I do not see why having that status would improve/speed up/better motivate the need to own weapons WHEN ONE DOES NOT OWN MORE THAN THE 5 WEAPONS as prescribed by the laws of South Africa.

    I am not trying to step on some toes, the thing is I dont know if a such a status is worth pursuing for the purposes of increasing the chances to own a weapon where it is not legally required to get such a status. I believe the 'dedicated' status is to improve and maintain the shooters capabilities and own more than 5 weapons and 200 rounds of ammo(not merely to 'improve chances'), is of vital importance and relevant for dedicated shooters and collectors, and is beneficial overall... i'm not questioning that at all... I want to know if I should go ahead right now when I am struggling to accomodate that courses in my plan, and get the status at all seeing as I will probably not ever own more than 5 weapons.

    Please gentlemen, as I said, its not because I think I know anything at all, its because I do not know that I am asking...im not implying anything other than "What do you know that I do not know?" and, "What advice do you have?". So, please guys, if I have said the wrong thing its because I am not well-informed about it, not because I think I know anything at all.

    I joined AH for guidance and education from more experienced peers, and nothing other than trying to break into an industry that I love.

    Regards,
     
  2. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Connections

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  3. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Not an RSA gun owner but, from afar what I understand from being a member of KZN Hunters Assoc.
    "Dedicated Hunter Status" allows you to have more firearms as you noted above.
    To maintain it you have to report your hunting activities or you lose the status. So, it sounds like it will ensure that you go hunting annually.
    It won't speed anything up per se.

    The status does provide this for sure:
    "...better motivate the need for a rifle or weapon"

    From all I have talked to the only thing that will speed it up is a Lawyer making certain that the paperwork is done exactly correctly.
    (That is, no mistakes and no reason to send it back "rejected")

    Being a big government machine they like little boxes to be ticked off correctly. The more the better from what I keep seeing.

    A friend's application was just rejected for no reason. But it cleared the application off the desk and cleared one from the back log. (the current SAPS goal)
    Now a new application after four years waiting.

    As James says, contact with other like minded folks is a benefit of joining the various hunting associations.
    I have learned a lot and continue to do so.
     
  4. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Brickburn

    Great reply by the way.

    I have found belonging to groups will always help you find the right person to talk to to help you along the way.

    The Who's - Why's & How's will point you in the right direction.

    Groups of like minded individuals have a wealth of information to share with you when you ask.
     
  5. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Thanks Brick and James.

    I see the value in joining those unions even if I dont need to (in order to own more than 5 weapons), but I just wanted to know if the 'rumours' are true, which I think it isn't. The police still have to do checks on ones background etc even if one is a member of those unions.

    The Lawyer idea is the one that makes sense because as Brick said the lawyer checks that all the paperwork is done properly so there is no cause to have the application rejected due to not ticking boxes etc.

    I see the value in keeping contact with like-minded people and reporting on hunting activites to keep the status etc, but i dont believe it speeds up or helps the gun application as much as people say it does, it helps one to justify owning more than 5 weapons, and it does provide more motivation but a good motivation does not speed the gun application process up.

    Thanks guys
     
  6. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    Brickburn,
    Top answer. Thats as clear as it comes and spot on.

    Best Regards
    Marius
     
  7. sasafaris

    sasafaris AH Member

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    Marius,
    it does help with the process of licencing.
    Chasa member associations are part of a group of accredited hunting associations that meet with CFR regularly and we like to believe that it does make a difference.
    Note:
    as a normal (not dedicated) person you may own 4 firearms only. If you choose one as a self defense purpose, that leaves you with 3 more choices, not 4 as you alluded to in your opening post.
     
  8. Rohan

    Rohan

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    That is correct John, I made a mistake, it is indeed not 5 but 4 one can own as a non-dedicated shooter. I have got my dedicated status now and I will soon be adding the letter to my applications for a .303 and a .44. When I do that I will make another post and date it, then we can see if the staus makes a difference to the TIME that an applicatioon takes to get processed. Though there are many other factors why an application with a dedicated status letter might take long, like bad admin or lazy staff. So, I never question the value of the dedicated status, I was just wondering at the time if I should spend the time and money on getting the status, which is what I did and i'm glad I did it regardless of how long it will take to get the weapons.

    Regards,
     
  9. KMG Hunting Safaris

    KMG Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Elite

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    John,
    As an established outfitter and a member of all the above associations in South Africa,I am quite aware of the laws when it comed to firearms. But thanks for taking the time to explain it.

    Best Regards
    Marius Goosen
     
  10. Rohan

    Rohan

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    .303 Licence APPROVED. Application handed in 26th October 2011 and approved as of 22nd March 2012. No Dedicated Status of any sort with this application. Licensed under Section 15: Occassional Hunting and/or Sport-Shooting. Total amount of time waited = 5months.

    .44Spcl Handgun application handed in on 26th March 2012. Dedicated Sport-Shooter's Status with application. To be considered under Section 13: Self-Defence.

    .375 H&H Rifle application will be handed in this week or next. Dedicated Sport-Shooter's Status will accompany the application. To be considered under Section 16: Dedicated Hunting and/or Dedicated Sport-Shooting.

    Competency Self-Loading Carbine application handed in 26th March 2012. My other three competency applications were all approved under four(4) months.

    Station: Garsfontein, Pretoria

    Lets hope the .375 goes just as well. The actuall license card for my .303 has not been delivered and should take a couple of weeks before I can pick up the rifle. Cannot apply for a temporary license as it is too late and a bit impractical as the temporary license will approved by the time the card arrives (if I understood correclty)...but still what a relief, I finally have my own rifle.
     
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Rohan Nothing that you can do on this planet will speed up any application you are either lucky or not,...(as far as time frame goes) just need to wait your turn.

    I worked with Martin Hood on one and did the other bymyself, mine was quicker........... All any lawyer can do is compile a motivation and have CFR aknowledge receipt of such motivation or application.

    Belonging to any association also does not speed up the process, it can help in obtaining a favourable result as far approval goes but that is it. I understand your frustration, I have a $6500-00 firearm in a rifle shops possesion, with legal cost we are working on an estimate of roughly $7500-00 total I have spent (disregarding phone calls).

    We are dealing with an unsurpassed level of incompetance in an unstreamlined utterly corrupt and unprodictive system.
    Let's hope it gets settled sooner rather than later, as far as a lawyer goes you really do not need one, make sure all is in order as brickburn correctly mentioned and say a hail MARY.

    Upon refusal if this was to happen, you can have a court interdict/order (terminology) for a cost of R10 000 this will force CFR to process your appeal within 6 weeks as is stipulated by law.

    I truly hope yours is resolved soon.

    My best always.
     
  12. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Jaco,

    I read your other thread you started regarding CFR and I really and trully wish I knew how to help you as I can only imagine... That situation is just sick. The facts of your case regarding that rifle is seriously disconcerting and if I were a new applicant and read a thing like that I would be discouraged to even attempt to apply as a new owner in South Africa. But its a reality we as hunters have to bare, i have been lucky.

    In some areas the system is an absolute joke to say the least. But there is light at the end of the tunnel Jaco. As you can see with my applications I have only waited a few months for approval etc, though the licence card is not there yet, but I have still heard good reviews about the PARTICULAR STATION that I apply through which is the Garsfontein Station in Pretoria, I am merely lucky for this. I can only imagine the frustration you are experiencing with the CFR etc. I hope my luck continues with my .375 application as it is the one rifle I actually 'need'.

    And as you have rightly stated there is only so much a lawyer can do and I have to make sure that everything else is in order then say a prayer and hope that the phase of the moon is right and that the DFO got his morning breakfast on time... With my motivation that I wrote myself I can hardly ever imagine having to pay a lawyer to do that and then also just to have his letterhead, I cannot and will not do it. A motivation letter is something you only need concentration, detail, time, and supporting documentation to succeed with. If you state something in a motivation letter...support it with documenation, otherwised there is cause to say 'did not support' 'not enough supporting documentation'.

    I agree with you fully in terms of working with a lawyer, and I think a lawyer will only serve the best purpose once the application has been denied, other than that I think there are a few making money for nothing really (my opinion), and then also with the time-frame as regards dedicated status...many have said the dedicated status speeds up, i believe they have evidence for that, but I dont know if it holds as a consisitent thing ie that it was indeed the dedicated status and not just the luck of the draw. Because I have heard of both extremes.

    Really hope you get your rifle. I must say that you have patience and a whole lot of reserve to only be attempting to get hold of the top of CFR now. I would have lost it after a year of waiting!!! You have lasted more than three years!!!!

    Keep well,

    PS: At least you have a .460 and a SABATTI to keep you happy in the mean time;)
     
  13. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Congratulations on your lottery win. Finally have your own rifle.
    Answer the question: Which is the best caliber?

    Any one you can have!
     
  14. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Lol! Very true and thanks Brickburn. Playing the lottery next week...starting with numbers 3 7 5...hope I play the right numbers again and I get lucky twice!
     
  15. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Rohan, yes if ever I get depressed I shoot those two or my trusty 375.. it still sucks though, this is in a .30-378 in the Serengeti version of Kilimanjaro custom rifles, bit of a bummer, but hoping for the best, I do apologize if I came over as negative gets to me sometimes.

    Thanks for the words of encouragement, after posting this morning a saint came to the resque and I have a bit of hope thanks to that.

    Keep well and good hunting.

    My best always
     
  16. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Thanks for the words of encouragement, after posting this morning a saint came to the resque and I have a bit of hope thanks to that.

    No problem Jaco, I understand that type of frustration as do all SA gun owners and applicants... we just dont know whether the application will go through, get approved, get rejected, get lost, whatever, and for a lot of us the blinken thing drags on for years and years...

    My uncle applied for 30-06 got it 3 years later(NorthWest province), the application was rejected two years after application went in but the SAPS only alerted him a year after that. He found out the app was rejected on grounds of too little supporting documentation and too little experience and credentials, but guess what???? All the supporting docs were in the app as well as evidence of experience and shooting credentials... so the app was rejected because some lazy ass decided to make the pile smaller. He went to some place (could have been a CFR or other) with lawyer, threatened a lawsuit, and immediately received a temporary licence in the office. This incident made me try to be very diligent about how I would apply in the future.

    Please post pics of the .30-378 when you get it. Will be nice to have a look-see!

    Cheers,
     
  17. Baydog

    Baydog AH Veteran

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    Wow, and I thought our gun laws in Canada were a pain in the a$$....
     
  18. Rohan

    Rohan

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    Baydog,

    Yes it is quite a pain in the $%!
     
  19. Da Mamba

    Da Mamba AH Member

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    There is a post on gunsite from a bloke that works in the CFR, Nortierd, he has posted ALL the relevant telephone numbers throughout SA which could help. There are some individuals within the CFR that are working their butts off to make it work and I think it is a thankless job.
     
  20. Rohan

    Rohan

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    I agree Mamba, we tend to only see the problems with the firearm system and I am guilty of that too, and the hard-working people that do pull their weight hardly get recognition because they are behind the scenes stuck in an office all day doing their work. I try to keep that in mind, and also try my best to make a public note of success stories.

    Cheers
     

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