Cabelas dumping Sabattis on the market?

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Cliffy, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. Cliffy

    Cliffy AH Elite

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    I see Guns International has lots of ads from Cabelas with Sabattis 500NE, 470NE 450NE, etc for $3799.88
    What's up with that?
    Now if it was a Blaser (that's the only double that has fit me perfect out of the box)? :)
     
  2. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Hi Cliffy,

    I have found that when a dealer discounts there stock of a brand that they will no longer be offering that brand in the future.

    Now if cabelas were going to keep the brand they would move the stock item to one of there east stores that offers some discounted at close out prices. I purchased a rifle from the store months after i had looked at it in Post Falls Idaho store.

    I have found that cabelas does this at times and some great deals can be had if it is what you are looking for.

    have a great day.

     
  3. bebo

    bebo AH Veteran

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    Good question !!! Indeed :redhot:
    I have asked Cabelas if it's possible to import here in France Europa this Double because here ( less than 300 miles between my home and the manufacture Sabatti in Italia !!) : the price is : 6750 USD !!!!! :biggrin2:
     
  4. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    "I see Guns International has lots of ads from Cabelas with Sabattis 500NE, 470NE 450NE, etc for $3799.88
    What's up with that? "

    Cabelas had a two year contract to be exclusive U.S. dealer on Sabatti; their Florida importer brought something over 1000 of them, I think, for Cabelas order. That contract is, or soon will be, no longer in effect, the rifles didn't sell as well as Cabelas had hoped, especially after the debacle with Sabatti grinding muzzle rifling on some of the earliest imported ones, (attempting to regulate them to meet cabelas order deadline on time), so Cabelas is selling remaining stock at reduced prices, not planning to deal in the make any more. They obviously ordered way too many in the beginning; Double rifles are not a good product for a big box chain store to sell; clearly they learned this. Typical for big box chains such as this, they expect to quickly turn over a product, making big bucks, but this time it didn't work. Cabelas management didn't understand the double rifle market.
     
  5. OxfordTheCat

    OxfordTheCat New Member

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    I would advise all potential buyers to ask for pictures from the sellers, specifically of the muzzle:

    The various double rifle aficionados on another forum have noted some serious quality issues with Sabatti rifles as of late, and in an effort to safe time regulating these rifles, Sabatti took a few 'shortcuts' (grinding the barrel crown to various shapes with hand tools).

    Certainly not what you like to see when you're paying the better part of $4000 for a rifle.
     

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  6. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    And make sure that you have a 3-5 day inspection period that allows shooting to make sure they are as advertised.
     
  7. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    I bet the house after Cabela's dumps them, the next party will not be selling them cheaply.
     
  8. Buff-Buster

    Buff-Buster GOLD SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    For a guy on a budget, that really wants a double, there are good ones out there. I have a .470 and I am pleased with it. Would I rather have a Heym? Hell yes. Until I can afford one, my Sabatti will do just fine. If it has bee regulated properly, it's a deal at that price.
     
  9. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    Prior to Cabellas getting their 2 year contract I was on the 'list' to get one from EAA. The wholesale to my FFL was $2300-$2500 IIRC.
    The next retailer probably won't get an exclusive 2 year deal like this last one AND they'll have a 'hard row to hoe' to over come the bad PR that is now existing. There seems to be little help for the warranty from EAA so they'll need to figure that problem out also IF they continue to do the shoddy regulation.
     
  10. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Well, I thought the initial ones were regulated by a dremel tool, then after complaints they fixed the problems...no more dremel tools and properly regulated like Buff Buster's. If they are properly regulated like Wes's, then they are bound to bring $5000+, especially if there is 90 day guarentee.
     
  11. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    There have been a few more recently surface that appear to be later serial numbers.
     
  12. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    If they went back to the Dremel tool...they deserve anything they got coming to their reputation. :tired: of that crap!
     
  13. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    "as of late" is a bit on the late side! What I mean by that statement, is that the muzzle grinding seems to have been done on earlier ones imported (some of which may be still floating around), and no longer seems to be an issue on those most recent ones brought in. I happen to own four Sabatti doubles, in different calibers, .450/.400, 450, .470, and .500, NONE with muzzle grinding, and all regulated well. So, if you look before you leap (buy), you will get one with no grinding issues. They are well designed, well made, and they use some of the finest steel available, regardless of what the "Sabatti haters" preach. Some of these haters would like to tell you that Sabatti didn't know how to regulate them, or that they used wrong methods to regulate them. If that is true, based on ones I own, and ones I have seen, Sabatti must be the most lucky maker on this planet!
     
  14. Cliffy

    Cliffy AH Elite

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    Now here's a question or two-or 3-
    1) Will they really regulate in doing it that way ? Now I realize it's a butcher job. No self-respecting gunsmith would do something like that and it just about lowers the value in my mind to zero BUT will it regulate that way?
    2) I have looked at several Sabattis and when mounting every one of them I see I need more cast off and drop in the stock to be really usable. I don't want to have to adjust my initial mount to line up the sights with DG rifle. The 2 Blasers I mounted fit like a glove first time. Has anybody had to have that work done on one of these?
    3) Could those that are butchered be shortened to get rid of the cutting and then be re-regulated in a proper way? Or is Sabattis regulation method not conducive to this "fix"?
     
  15. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    ________________________

    Based on European interview video I saw, interviewing Mr. Sabatti, one of the owners of the Italian firm that made these rifles, this is what I understand: Sabatti, under pressure to try to fill the initial large order from Cabelas by a given date, via the Florida importer, Sabatti resorted to taking a shortcut in final tuning regulation on SOME (NOT ALL) doubles, to fill that initial order by date requested. Mr. Sabatti said that he and the firm made a major error in taking this shortcut, and that such a thing would never happen again, as it hurt their reputation and sales, etc. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS 1. When one regulates barrels properly, when they need more precise "fine tuning" to bring the regulation to a, higher standard (what you have patience for) the muzzle grinding they resorted to, does work to some degree, because it causes the cartridges gasses to "steer" the bullets one way or the other, opposite the direction of the ground away rifling at muzzle. It is a nasty way to do things, done as a shortcut by unreputable, since it would take more time to unsolder and solder again the regulation wedge at the muzzle, if done properly. Yes, it does work, but what an underhanded way to do it. I have known guys who had one of these earlier Sabatti rifles, that had muzzle rifling filed or ground out on one or more sides, AND THE RIFLES SHOT WELL, and regulated WELL, but it is sad to have to butcher an otherwise good regulation job that could have been done so much better, if only a little more patience and effort from the regulator had been done. 2. My Sabatti rifles fit me perfectly, and I know a good number of other shooters who own them, and others who have tried them, and we all have found the stock fit really good for us. Thus, for the average built guy, if there is such a thing, they should fit just fine. For everyone else, it will be necessary to sand the stock to some degree, to get proper fit, but that can be said for most all rifles, not limited to Sabatti. No gun stock will always fit everyone! Personally, on my four Sabatti rifles, I stripped the factory finish, as I hate the original varnish like finish, and I refinished mine with best London oil finish, when enhanced the grain pattern tremendously, and looks way better than the original finish. One obviously needs to also install a better more appropriate recoil pad (as you would have to do on any make double rifle, unless it was custom made for you), fit to your length of pull, so if you do all this, more sanding to fit the stock to you, is not all that difficult. 3. The ones that are butchered, with muzzle rifling filed or ground away, it certainly is a simple task to cut the barrels shorter, and to re-regulate them, properly, but why would you want to do that, when you can buy one without the filing/grinding issues--at last count, Cabelas had 91 of them still in stock, at reduced sale prices? How do I know that the Sabatti can be re-regulated properly? I know, because I have re-regulated two of them so far, ones that were not muzzle ground, but that needed only slight re-regulation adjustment to bring them up to the highest of standards, shooting a good horizontal string, of 2" or less (no, I won't do it for you; I am retired, and did the two for close friends only). Here is information you need to know about regulation, and where to learn more: If you are contemplating such a thing as regulation or re-regulation of a sabatti: The top and bottom ribs, the muzzle regulation tapered wedge, etc. are all simply soft soldered in, same as almost all double rifles ever made; they are not silver soldered or brazed, as some guys would like you to believe, so the top/bottom ribs, and muzzle regulation wedge can easily be taken off, to begin the process of re-regulation, IF you know what you are doing. The Sabatti has NO MID POINT regulation wedge, as many double rifles do, but that is nothing unique or unusual about the Sabatti double rifle. Numerous other double rifles, especially German ones, made through history, also have no mid point regulation wedge either, so Sabatti is no different from them. I am presently re-regulating a clamshell German double rifle, in 9.3x74R caliber, that was made prior to WWI, originally regulated for as much lighter bullet than is common today, so I am to re-regulate if for common heavier bullet we use today. This pre WWI German double has no mid point regulation wedge, and the ribs, muzzle tapered regulation wedge are all made identical to the ones on the Sabatti, so Sabatt is nothing new in this category. The mid point regulation wedge only makes it easier to regulate a double. It is a simple task to make, from scratch, a mid point regulation wedge, and install it into the Sabatti; that is exactly what I did on the two I re-regulated. How did I go about re-regulating the two I did? In Tech College, gunsmithing school, I took a class from W. Ellis Brown, on converting double shotguns to double rifles, and he later wrote a book (now in its second edition) covering that process, including the regulation process; exactly how it is done. Read that, for that is how I did it, but with a few modifications I developed through the years. you may be able to do it too, if you have any skill at all in such matters.
     
  16. Cliffy

    Cliffy AH Elite

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    Thank you for your reply and input. I do appreciate it. I have Mr Brown's book also. Read it and was amazed at the amount of work involved in the process. I am but a metal butcher compared to any of you. I grew up in a machine shop owned by my Dad but alas most of his skills didn't have time to transfer to me as he didn't want me to go his route of vocation. He could make any manual machine sing and dance. I remember him hand grinding cams for an automatic lathe back in the early 50s.
    Having watched one of the utube videos on how Sabatti regulated rifles the only "tool" needed is that special rig to hold things steady while the solder is put in place. Now as to how many rounds need to be fired (and the cost) that is another thing all together :) I can see a sore shoulder now. The SKILL to make it all happen is yet another story.
    I am going to dig out the book again tonight and reread it.
    Now, knowing that the dremel work is so bad BUT that the rifle may shoot well (OK, here comes the questions) if one could find one of those for sale cheap, which may happen in the near future as the bad press may make those hard to sell, it might make sense to buy one if a person was going to go hunt big stuff only one time and really didn't "care" too much about the weapon in use, NO?
    In my case although I appreciate the art of well made rifles ( I've been to the Gunsmiths convention near SCI a couple of times and I have a very accomplished GS as a close friend whos metal work is fantastic, tapered octagon big bore barrels with integral sight bases) I could see a case where I might want to not spend 1000s on a "use it once" rifle. Would I like a Royal, sure, but I'd be afraid to carry it afield.
    My own gun work has been very mediocre when compared to true professionals like yourself. I've enjoyed doing what I have done but it in noway is something someone would pay good money for.
     
  17. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    ______________________

    Regarding Ellis Brown's book, converting double shotguns to double rifles, one should get and read the second edition only, as it contains updated worthy information not found in the first edition. Regarding how many rounds it takes to properly regulate a double rifle, Brown told me that he now can usually do it in 40 to 60 rounds, and I think that I can generally do the same. This means the double is fine tune regulated to shoot left/right about 2" or less (standard is 3") apart. Note for those who don't know: A properly regulated double rifle should NEVER cross fire, but should shoot left/right parallel to infinity, within reason. Regarding the Sabatti online video that so many people like to point to, to prove that they don't know how to regulate a double rifle properly, or that they did this or that wrong, etc. all I have to say is that I give them the benefit of the doubt, and believe that they may have shown the video only for the majority, general public viewing; not intending it for the minority, technical savvy double rifle "experts;" not showing any boring technical details at all. If that is the case, it could explain why they didn't show details at all of their taking careful measurements of gap between barrels, etc. Again, if they really didn't know what they were doing, or that they didn't do it right, based on ones I own, and others I am aware of, they have to be the luckiest guys on the planet. Granted, some of them aren't regulated well, but considering that they, for the Cabelas orders alone, had to regulate over 1000 of them, in a relatively short period of time (many more than that, if you consider world wide distribution), it is at least easier to understand, but not excusable. No other modern double rifle maker in the world has had to produce such a number that quickly, I do believe.
    For those few who have been interested in, or actively involved in, converting double shotguns to double rifles, as espoused by Ellis Brown and others, it seems to me that the Sabatti double rifle having entered the marketplace, has changed all that. Why convert a shotgun action to double rifle, when you can begin with a a more robust action designed initially as a true double rifle action, not as a shotgun action, the Sabatti action, able to easily hold up to heavier recoiling calibers, from the .450/.400 to the .470, or even the .500 (though the .500 Sabatti is entirely too light in overall weight for caliber, in my opinion)? They will even hold up to the more intense cartridges designed for bolt rifles, such as the .416 Rigby (which some Sabatti doubles were also chambered for, all using same size Sabatti action. Following suggestions by Brown in his book, why not make a new monoblock from scratch, fit to the Sabatti, fit in new barrels in whatever double rifle caliber you desire, up to the .500, for a two harrel set? And, if you propose such a barrel set for the .500 NE, why not make that new monoblock as a parallel monoblock, for parallel barrels of same, larger outside diameter, out to about 8 inches or even out to 12 inches, to give much more desired overall weight for a true .500 NE? Doing such a thing is nothing new, the British made many of their double rifles this same way, with the monoblock having NO TAPER to it, as the Sabatti monoblock is tapered? I have taken several of the big bore Sabatti deluxe model double rifles completely apart, examining all internal components carefully, put them back together, worked on custom upgrading them in various ways, and have come to some firm conclusions about the Sabatti: They are extremely well designed, made of finest steels available (the actions are machine from a solid block of a modern high strength tri-alloy steel--not cast as many other modern double rifle actions are). The internal parts are highly polished, much more so than the parts found in a Chapuis or similar modern double rifle. Parts are fit very well. They contain only one coil spring, the top lever spring, while all other major springs, including ejector springs, are the more traditional, more desirable (my opinion) V type, as found in best British double rifles. Most other modern double rifles contain the much less expensive, easier to get, less desirable, coil springs (my opinion), no V springs. Converting double shotguns to double rifles, in my opinion, is a thing of the past, for those who are skilled enough to instead, get an excellent Sabatti, do custom upgrading work on it, even regulating it for a more refined fine tuning, if desired, and/or making a new second barrel set, or even a three barrel set if so motivated. The end results are vastly superior to a simple shotgun to double rifle conversion.
     
  18. Cliffy

    Cliffy AH Elite

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    As I sit here with Mr Brown's book in hand (Second edition) and reread parts that caught my eye I am still fascinated by the quality of machine work that needs to be done on double rifles. I bought the book just to see how it was done and not to try and do it myself as that is a skill way beyond anything I have in the machine shop world. How things are made and done has been my favorite pass time for decades.
    Your last two postings have been two of the best educations I have ever had on DRs and you points of view invaluable. I'm cutting them out and saving them.
    From my naive position on double rifles there is a lot to said about using an action already built and designed for DR work instead of working over very specific shotgun actions. At the price of the Sabattis it makes no sense to use anything else if one wants a DR or wants to go the route of sets of barrels for the action. As far as I can perceive in all I have read, the action it self is a good one, the barrels are probably as good, the drawbacks and bad press have come from not the quality of the base rifle but what was done to it in the name of production. At its price point one can not expect a $1000 wood blank for a stock nor "perfect" fitting of wood to metal. It's not a Royal or a VC or a K, period. But can it be a fully functioning reliable rifle, I'd bet money on it. Could it be a base from which to build a custom DR, my thinking is probably, depending on how much you put into it. Now I'm just brain storming now but, a high quality wood restock with good checkering, maybe a real good reblue, I'd probably do a ghost ring rear sight with an "ivory" front sight, say in 470NE ( has always been a round I've wanted in my safe) and probably get by for under 10K. Yes I know, wishful thinking but I like the idea of it.
    I would love to sit on a stool in your shop and just watch for a few days. I'll bring my own stool (I sat on it in my Dad's machine shop when I was 8 years old, 60 yrs ago, while I was drilling holes in a block of aluminum at an old Buffalo floor drill press to keep me occupied while he worked). :) Thanks again for all your information!!! I'll read anything you want to contribute to this DR discussion.
     
  19. Buff-Buster

    Buff-Buster GOLD SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Doubleriflejack - First off, welcome to AH! Secondly, thank you for your informative,common sense posts on the Sabatti subject. For the last couple of years, I have read every post I could find on any forum about Sabattis. I have learned more about them and double rifles in general in your writing than two years worth of reading others opinions (mainly in another forum) Thanks for posting information based on first hand knowledge other than emotions. I'm with Cliffy...keep posting brother.
     
  20. Doubleriflejack

    Doubleriflejack AH Senior Member

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    "Thanks for posting information based on first hand knowledge other than emotions. I'm with Cliffy...keep posting brother."

    Thank you for the kind remarks; I always try to deal with facts; not emotions. Sadly, it has reached the point, on too many of these sort of double rifle forums, where too many "experts" express their opinions degrading the Sabatti rifles, as if they have a personal vendetta of some sort. On another forum, a very skilled and talented guy, a Canadian, Ron Villa, who has done beautiful work, converted a number of double shotguns to double rifles, correctly posted that one couldn't even post anything about the Sabatti, without getting attacked, challenged, homogenized, and barbequed (OK, I made up the "homogenized and barbequed" part). He mentioned that when Sabatti had come to Canada for a display at some big gun event, he carefully examined a number of the Sabatti double rifles, and was very pleased with what he had seen, with quality, workmanship, etc. Anyway, that is exactly why I have tended to not post, or post most infrequently, and stay away from the large army of "experts" on these forums---with so many "experts," my opinions are certainly not needed, anyway! Should anyone have any double rifle questions, including questions about the Sabatti doubles, send me a PM, and I will be glad to answer, that way not opening myself to getting "homogenized and barbequed."
     

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