Blood Lions: Blowing The Lid Off The Canned Hunting Industry

[jabulani]

I think that your comments pertaining to the hunting of cheetah are at the crux of what we are discussing here as hunters . I myself have seen cheetah in the wild many times but at no time could I contimplate hunting( shooting. )one of theses animals with a clear conscience . This brings me back to the lion issue. I know personally know of individuals is sa who have taken on the rearing of lion cubs on behalf of others for monetary gain. They rear these lion cubs in their houses until the are weaned and able to eat meat. My question is to our hunting fraternity is how can we ethically in good conscience hunt an animal that at one time in its life was basically someone's pet even though it is a member of the big five. As dangerous as it may be in 1000 acres it was still reared by the human hand and as such does not deserve to be deemed as hunted

 

[gizmo]

There again sir we are not talking about shooting pets. We are talking about hunting lions in a ethical, conservation minded situation. Also, 1000 acres is way to small to consider a fair chase lion hunt.

 

[Vevew]

The scientific arguments against canned hunting are the following:

• It doesn't help to conserve wild lions. The lion farms breed the animals based on criteria that satisfy hunters (mainly lions with bigger and darker mane, or white lions). It has nothing to do with preserving the genetic diversity of wild lions. Also, there are no known successful attempts to reintroduce a captive-born lion back to the wild.
• After the hunt the lion bones can be (and often are) sold to Asia as traditional medicine, to make more profit. This creates a market where poachers could enter. This can create more pressure to wild lion populations.
• A canned hunting farm doesn't conserve an ecosystem either, because it's a fenced areas where prey species can't enter. For real conservation to happen, fences should be removed to allow predators and prey interact naturally.
• The claim that hunting of captive bred lions takes pressure off wild lions must be challenged as there is no scientific data behind it at all. Canned hunting has merely opened up an entirely new market for hunters that would not have been able to afford a wild hunt.

Some other points:

• Currently the raising of the lion cubs is mostly funded by uninformed tourists who go to cub petting facilities. If the general public will get educated on this subject, most of them might stop participating in it, and the funding stops. This will make canned hunting more expensive.

What are some good counter-arguments for these?

 

[gizmo]

Well sir I would say you may want to read the entire post so to see the arguments laid out. Furthermore those are not scientific facts those are opinions. I don't feel anyone is going to re type the entire conversation to answer your opinions especially considering they have been hashed over many times already. Again the claims that these animals are somehow domestic pets is absolutely false. I will stand by what I said that it would be interesting to see someone go into these hunting areas, specifically where I hunted my lion, under the same circumstance in which my lion hunt took place, and walk up to try and scratch this so called tame lion on the head. I would love to see it done. I also stand behind what I have posted and what I have done.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The scientific arguments against canned hunting are the following:

• It doesn't help to conserve wild lions. The lion farms breed the animals based on criteria that satisfy hunters (mainly lions with bigger and darker mane, or white lions). It has nothing to do with preserving the genetic diversity of wild lions. Also, there are no known successful attempts to reintroduce a captive-born lion back to the wild.
• After the hunt the lion bones can be (and often are) sold to Asia as traditional medicine, to make more profit. This creates a market where poachers could enter. This can create more pressure to wild lion populations.
• A canned hunting farm doesn't conserve an ecosystem either, because it's a fenced areas where prey species can't enter. For real conservation to happen, fences should be removed to allow predators and prey interact naturally.
• The claim that hunting of captive bred lions takes pressure off wild lions must be challenged as there is no scientific data behind it at all. Canned hunting has merely opened up an entirely new market for hunters that would not have been able to afford a wild hunt.

Some other points:

• Currently the raising of the lion cubs is mostly funded by uninformed tourists who go to cub petting facilities. If the general public will get educated on this subject, most of them might stop participating in it, and the funding stops. This will make canned hunting more expensive.

What are some good counter-arguments for these?

1. Provided that proper breeding practices are observed and excessive in-breeding is avoided it may be that one day these lions from the breeders will be necessary to replenish the wild lions. Will it work? I don't know but I do know a captive bred lion will figure out how to kill his/her own meal. The procreation part is obviously natural.

2. Totally disagree concerning lion bones from raised lions creating a market in Asia. Demand creates a market, supply merely keeps it alive. Whether the supply of lion is bones is from a wild lion or raised, the demand is there and there will always be someone willing to meet that demand with supply if there's enough $$$ in it. If anything the bones from a raised lion if the trades is/or would be legal would reduce the demand for the bones from wild lions.

3. If this were the case regarding fenced areas then why does RSA have so much more animals than Kenya? Why are species like the black wildebeest thriving as well as they ever have?

4. There's no doubt that RSA lion hunting has opened a market to those who would not be able to afford a lion hunt otherwise. However it is a reasonable assumption (albeit an assumption I grant you) that there are those who could afford a wild lion hunt but chose the RSA option due to the lower cost for any number of reasons.

 

[gizmo]

Which what Phil said pretty much sums it up and equals taking the stress of of wild lion populations.

 

[Code4]

I think there is a separate category for RSA and Namibian Lions.

That doesn't surprise me.

There is nothing wrong with cheque book shooting well managed, captive bred animals that are contained (to varying degrees) in man made structures. I've done it myself but I never called it hunting and I never claimed anything as being a trophy.

Just don't BS yourself and others that is is more than what it is. Call it a managed shoot or something. Anything but ethical hunting.

 

[Hank2211]

That doesn't surprise me.

There is nothing wrong with cheque book shooting well managed, captive bred animals that are contained (to varying degrees) in man made structures. I've done it myself but I never called it hunting and I never claimed anything as being a trophy.

Just don't BS yourself and others that is is more than what it is. Call it a managed shoot or something. Anything but ethical hunting.

Here we go again.

 

[gizmo]

It is a hunt if done properly. We tracked for miles and the danger is very real. That was my experience maybe not every bodies. No it's not the same as a 21 day safari in Tanzania and I wouldn't say it was. That doesn't mean that it's not a challenge or a real hunt.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I think that your comments pertaining to the hunting of cheetah are at the crux of what we are discussing here as hunters . I myself have seen cheetah in the wild many times but at no time could I contimplate hunting( shooting. )one of theses animals with a clear conscience .

Since I am the poster of the "Cheetah comment" I assume you are focusing on me at the moment.
The "crux of the matter" is the fact that I have not resolved the matter PERSONALLY.
With a little research and some more information I would be able to resolve my Cheetah hunting dilemma.
There is currently a sustainable and huntable population in Namibia. CITES issues permits and bases the decisions on science. No issues for me their.
I just have not wrapped my mind around an EMOTIONAL issue, not the RATIONAL issue.

.................. My question is to our hunting fraternity is how can we ethically in good conscience hunt an animal that at one time in its life was basically someone's pet even though it is a member of the big five. As dangerous as it may be in 1000 acres it was still reared by the human hand and as such does not deserve to be deemed as hunted

If a human never touched it or interfered with it, is that the line?

 

[BRICKBURN]

This is from Mozambique.
So, when the Lions manage to be released and re-populate the area are they Pen raised?
Is reintroduction by the Outfitter now raise a release? What's the time line before hunting these reintroduced Lions?

 

[billc]

That doesn't surprise me.

There is nothing wrong with cheque book shooting well managed, captive bred animals that are contained (to varying degrees) in man made structures. I've done it myself but I never called it hunting and I never claimed anything as being a trophy.

Just don't BS yourself and others that is is more than what it is. Call it a managed shoot or something. Anything but ethical hunting.

What a bunch of bs. I should not bs myself about the animals I have hunted in SA. Wow this just maybe be a new low that someone thinks they really make the rules for all hunters on what a hunt is. The high horse keeps getting bigger.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

View attachment 45505
This is from Mozambique.
So, when the Lions manage to be released and re-populate the area are they Pen raised?
Is reintroduction by the Outfitter now raise a release? What's the time line before hunting these reintroduced Lions?

Please explain this picture further so I don't make any assumptions. Is this a raised lion that is intended to be released into the wild?

 

[BRICKBURN]

Please explain this picture further so I don't make any assumptions. Is this a raised lion that is intended to be released into the wild?

I have been reading heaps of research on Mozambique in anticipation of my trip. This particular picture came from a published research study on Bush Meat issues in a specific Coutada.
The picture title is exactly what it states. "Release pen."
I assume it is part of a program to reintroduce the species back into the area where they were extirpated during the war.

 

[gizmo]

I think that is a grand idea and I hope it works.

 

[50lawman]

Just another anti hunting idiot. If anything, raised lions are much more dangerous as they do not fear man. Furthermore there is nothing "canned" about it. Lion hunting, be it SA or anywhere else, is dangerous period. SA lion hunts with reputable out fitters are as far chase as they get. I've done it and I can assure you the lion has the upper hand. If there was one thing I learned out of my entire lion hunt is that you don't hunt lions, they hunt you. Many of you are right though, we as hunters must give our side of the story to the public and show them concrete facts. The anti's are great about painting a warm fuzzy picture and people buy into it. Their world falls apart when scientific proof distroys their propaganda though.

I agree with Gizmo. These animals aren't handfed, there are strict rules as to when you can start the hunt and the animal has to have made a kill prior. When you're hunting an animal on 300,000 acres it might as well be fair chase. That just gives him more room to look for you.

 

[enysse]

Well if you ban the lion hunts in RSA and Namibia behind fence, you dry up the supply. They will shut lion hunting for sure, it will never reopen, because you have to change politics and culture....that will never happen. It seems like a lot of people are jealous over people making money on people raising and selling "fence lion" hunts. Pretty sad.
The main problem is no one ever comes on AH with a wild lion conservation plan. The main problem is more lions in the wild are taken by poachers....than ever will be taken by legal hunters. There is ton of habitat destruction. A tertiary problem...there are just too many people

 

[IdaRam]

Well if you ban the lion hunts in RSA and Namibia behind fence, you dry up the supply. They will shut lion hunting for sure, it will never reopen, because you have to change politics and culture....that will never happen.

Amen brother
As long as there is a real possibility and somewhat affordable opportunity for sportsmen to hunt an african lion, there may be a pool of people large enough and invested enough in the cause to successfully defend lion hunting across the board. Both high fence and free range. If lion hunting is restricted to free range only, the cost will be so high and opportunity so severely limited that there will be so few left with skin in the game there will be virtually no one left willing to fund and fight the battle. Is there anyone here that thinks the anti-hunters don't know that?
Fewer dollars going toward anti-poaching would seem inevitable as well...

 

[enysse]

I agree IdaRam, 100%

 

[tarbe]

Wow, found this elsewhere on the net:

PHASA PRESIDENT CALLS FOR A REVIEW OF LION HUNTING

Pretoria, 24 July 2015 – Hermann Meyeridricks, president of the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA), is asking the hunting association to reconsider its position on lion hunting.

In a letter emailed to PHASA members today, Meyeridricks says that the campaign against trophy hunting has intensified around the canned or captive-bred lion hunting issue since its current policy on lion hunting was adopted at its AGM in November 2013.

“We took the view that our position was a stepping-stone to clean up the captive-bred lion hunting industry and made it clear that it was certainly not our final word on the hunting of lions,” he says.

“From my dealings with the media and the community, it has become clear to me that those against the hunting of lions bred in captivity are no longer just a small if vociferous group of animal-rights activists. Broader society is no longer neutral on this question and the tide of public opinion is turning strongly against this form of hunting, however it is termed. Even within our own ranks, as well as in the hunting fraternity as a whole, respected voices are speaking out publicly against it.”

Meyeridricks says that with some airlines and shipping lines refusing to transport hunting trophies, PHASA has to face the fact that the lion issue is putting at risk not only the reputation of professional hunting in South Africa but its very survival.

“PHASA’s current policy on the issue is, broadly speaking, that it recognises the legality of and demand for captive-bred lion hunting, and is working with the predator breeders and government to improve its standards and conditions to a generally acceptable level. We have made little demonstrable progress on this front,” he says.

“Against this background, I have come to believe that, as it stands, our position on lion hunting is no longer tenable. The matter will be on the agenda again for our next annual general meeting and I appeal to you to give it your serious consideration, so that together we can deliver a policy that is defensible in the court of public opinion,” he says in the letter.

For further information contact Hermann Meyeridricks, PHASA president, on 083 303 0498.