Beware of Cull or Management Hunts in Namibia

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by AfricaHunting.com, Apr 22, 2010.

  1. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    What the law says about hunting cheetahs and leopards is one thing...what really goes on is a whole other matter. Leopards and cheetahs on shoot on sight for the most part.....hardly anyone is going to try and bait and get a CITES permit.

    Now if you could hunt them with dogs and had a quota...and could ship them to the U.S., then they would have a value associated to them. I have not meet enough landowners that are willing to feed one springbok to leopard....so that tells you were the wildlife management is in Namibia. Landowners will tell you how many game the leopards and cheetahs eat if they aren't shoot on sight....there is no reimbursment...slim chance of getting the animal legally before it moves on to the next ranch or property....SHOOT ON SIGHT...sad indeed.
     
  2. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Dinsdale,
    Indeed he brought up also the example of Gemsbok, however I was commenting on his post saying "The game inside our high fence is OUR property and we can do with them what we like...." and also replying to his statement "In a high fenced property I can shoot all my animals if I want to because they belong to me!!!!".
    Nothing needed to be said or commented in regard to Corne's statement on the permit not including information on who the shooter is.
     
  3. Intu Safaris

    Intu Safaris AH Enthusiast

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    To Jerome

    Please keep us informed what NAPHA's position is about the cull hunts.

    To Mr Kruger

    That is exactly the problem of res nullius which is the basis of game ownership and wildlife laws in Namibia and SA, and used to be in Zimbabwe (maybe it still applies to commercial farms). As a landowner you may need a permit to cull common species like gemsbok on your farm, but it does not prevent landowners do cull anyway and sell the meat. During the severe drought in the late 1970s and early 1980s when farmers had to sell their livestock, many farmers in the Outjo District have resorted to culling and sold the meat as biltong "legally". It was so bad that most animals in the district were shot out - thanks to "it's our game and we can do with it what we like".
     
  4. bwanadave1989

    bwanadave1989 New Member

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    Hi, i know this is quite an old thread but I have been looking for a management type hunt as a first african safari and came across Kowas Safaris in Namibia. They offer a non - trophy (management) hunt where you can hunt 10 animals (2 of each species). It all looks legit to me but im definately no expert. Can anyone tell me if it is ok or not.
     
  5. Bushbuck

    Bushbuck AH Enthusiast

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    Hi Bwana Dave. I looked at the website and it looks like a nice place, certainly they at least have a beautiful lodge. I would have a few questions. where are you located? Why are you looking for a management hunt for your first safari, cost? Is there lodge area they say they hunt on fenced? There was not really any pricing on there website, have you contacted them? do you have a list of there fees and the deal they are offering you?

    If you are coming from the states and are going on a management hunt behind a fence in Namiba to save cost, it may be more cost effective to go to RSA in flights travel and actual cost of safari? Lots of places are offering cull management hunts if that is what you are looking for. What are the species in the hunt package and is it for females only. The place looks legit but I have never heard of them. There are many here that can help you. Please post a little more info as to what you are looking for and what they are offering you and I sure someone will chime in.
     
  6. bwanadave1989

    bwanadave1989 New Member

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    Well the pricing is on the website as $2700 for 5 days hunting oryx, blue wildebeest, red hartebeest, springbuck and jackal. It doesn't say if they would be females so i'm not sure about that. The property is 17000 acres of wildlife only area which is part of a 400,000 acre conservency. Im from the UK so as much as I would love to hunt for trophies, importing them into this country would no doubt be very difficult (im guessing here, as anything to do with firearms or hunting seems to be made annoyingly difficult over here). If there is anyone from the UK with recent experience of hunting in Africa on the forums, I would love to know how smooth everything went in regards to trophy shipping etc.
     
  7. Bushbuck

    Bushbuck AH Enthusiast

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    I guess I always ask a few more questions before I assume. I have found out more than once that things change once you get over there. Do they have rights to hunt 400,000 acres? is the 17000 acres an area they have open to them for hunting and that is unfenced and free range to the other 400,000 acres? is the 17000 acres high fenced and crossed fenced and not open to the other 400,000? Do they own 17000 acres?

    I guess I am slow, but I always just look for a straight answer.

    I see where they have that special, but they do not list a species list with individual trophy pricing. I cannot answer the questions about the UK and importing trophies. I hope you dont have any problems with that as I am sure once you get there you will want to bring something home. Have a great time on your first Safari.
     
  8. Frederik

    Frederik AH Enthusiast

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    bwanadave1989,

    If you would like to get into contact with one of our English clients who has shipped trophies back drop me an email.
    What Bushbuck says is true if you are going to go to Namibia its going to be an extra flight since you dont have direct flights anymore from Gatwick or you could fly into mainland Europe and fly direct from there but that is extra hassles with firearms.

    So in the end you should decide trophy hunitng or management both can be done in Namibia or RSA and will end up costing around the same. What about trophy and management hunt in one go ?

    You can drop me a mail at frederik@infinito-safaris.com
     
  9. Shavesgreen

    Shavesgreen AH Senior Member

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    Hi Guys

    An interesting thread this one... I have no issue with cull hunts, especially for those on a tight budget, but I do get concerned when there are grey areas with legality? The sliding scale for shot placement is very strange, surely this will encourage people to take shots that may be beyond their capabilities or comfort level just to save a few $? I operate with the policy that clients who ruin a carcass through poor shooting pay for the venison at game dealer rates, simple.. And to clarify we class a chest shot animal as perfectly acceptable so no charge is applicable.

    BwanaDave, you should have no great problems importing your trophies to the Uk. As with any other country it`s a smooth operation provided you have all the necessary paperwork completed and your trophy is accompanied by this.
     
  10. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Since this thread got reactivated I just wanted to post an update...

    I have been in contact with NAPHA six times, starting in April of last year (2010) trying to get clarification on this matter. They wrote back to me on the first occasion to let me know that they were looking into it and awaiting a reply from the Ministry of Environment and Tourism (MET).


    Here is what was sent to me on May 5, 2010:
    Good morning,
    Yes, foreign hunting clients are allowed to participate in so called cull / management / meat hunts in Namibia under the shoot and sell permit which has been issues to the landowner and the clients have to be listed as hunters (no trophies may be exported on such a hunt). We have hoped that MET would have send an official response on that topic, as you and I did not receive one by now we will have to wait a bit longer.
    If you should have any further questions in this regards please contact us again.
    Kind regards,
    Almut Kronsbein
    NAPHA



    Here is the letter I sent them on May 5, 2010 asking for clarification on many points:
    Almut,

    Thank you for getting back to me on that.

    Yes I do have further questions in regard to cull / management / meat hunts in Namibia.

    For many years now NAPHA website stipulates to the contrary, so now I am a bit confused. Here is the following statement from NAPHA website: "A hunting guest may only take two animals of a kind each year, irrespective if the trophies are exported or not."

    Well from what you are telling me now this above statement is not exactly true. We have always been told that it is legal for a hunting client in Namibia to shoot old, setback or abnormal trophies however the law dictates that a hunting client may only take two animals of a each species each year, irrespective if the trophies are exported or not.

    So from what I understand, a hunting client can under a shoot and sell permit which has been issues to the landowner and the clients have to be listed as hunters (no trophies may be exported on such a hunt).

    1. Is the permit actually called "shoot and sell permit", or is there another official name for it?

    2. Could you please tell me if this shoot and sell permit can be obtained all year long or is there a period for it.

    3. How long does a shoot and sell permit last, is it good for a limited period of time and how long or is it good until the number of animals have been taken?

    4. Would the hunting client be advised to request to see such permit prior to the hunt and to see if his name is indeed listed on it.

    5. Is there any restrictions as to the type of animals that can be harvested under a shoot and sell permit?

    5. I thought that a shoot and sell permit would only allow the land owner or manager to shoot animals during the day, not by an appointed person. Can you let me know if this is correct?

    6. Under a shoot and sell permit does the hunting client need to be accompanied by a hunting guide?

    7. Animals that are not exported from Namibia or wounded game not recovered are subject to a government tax of 15 percent (VAT) based upon the trophy fee paid by the hunting client. Can you please let me if there is any tax payable by the hunting client on animal taken on a shoot and sell permit?

    8. Most cull / management / meat hunts in Namibia are sold on a package price formula including day rates and animal taken. Is there a requirement for the hunting outfitter to separate both daily rate and animal for tax purposes upon invoicing such a hunt?

    9. Can these cull / management / meat hunts in Namibia under a shoot and sell permit be conducted on any type of property, game fence (high), cattle fence (low)?

    I know that there are lots of questions here but since things have "changed", I think that for the sake of everyone it would be good to know exactly what is possible or not and what constitutes these cull / management / meat hunts in Namibia.

    Looking forward to your replies to my questions.

    Thanking you in advance,
    Jerome



    Since my letter, I have been in correspondence with NAPHA in June, July and again in November trying to get a response but they continue to tell me that they have not received a clarification in writing from MET even though they said they were going to meet with them back in May 2010.

    From their letter it seems that NAPHA is saying that these so called cull / management / meat hunts are allowed, however I still seem to have too many questions regarding contradictions and lack of clarity surrounding several issues in regards to these type of hunts... And although I know that several Namibian outfitters are offering these types of hunts, and it seems that there is a general consensus that it is OK to do so, I am still not comfortable until I get some direct written feedback from MET.

    I sent again an email to NAPHA this morning asking for answers and will keep you posted.
     
  11. Kowas Hunting Safaris

    Kowas Hunting Safaris AH Veteran

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    What is the latest update and feedback from NAPHA since it is 4 November 2011?
     
  12. kuduman

    kuduman AH Veteran

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    the napha website reads-a hunting guest may take 2 animals of each kind per year irrespective if the trophys are exported or not. all trophys must attain the minimum points of trophy quality. exceptions are allowed with old setback or abnormal trophys. this is a grey area as it reads that you can only take 2 TROPHYS. the management animals do not meet the minimal requirements for export, and they are old abnormal and setback animals. the way that i read this makes it perfectly legal to take part in such a hunt.
     
  13. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    I have not received a reply from NAPHA regarding this matter.
     
  14. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    They published the information on the web. They opened themselves up to the opportunity to educate people.
     
  15. vhsaf

    vhsaf AH Member

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    Dear Bwana Dave
    As a Namibian I can assure you what Kowas has offered falls very safe in with the Namibian legislation. As a foreigner you are allowed to hunt 2 animals of a species (most plains game) on a trophy hunting license and if you decide to export or not is up to you and the outfitter. The price the outfitter quotes will indicate if he is intending you to export the heads or not, best to ask direct.
    Trophies that do not qualify for the minimum standard "should" not be allowed to leave the country but I have not heard of one incidence ever where they have refused export documents because of trophy size. It is so easy to find old Oryx, Hartebeest, Eland and Warthog that have worn their horns or tusks down to way below the minimum trophy size! As a conservationist and hunter these are the animals in my opinion that should be removed first before killing a prime breeding animal or in some cases juvenile just because he has a few inches longer horn / tusk!
    They might have added the VAT charge in the package if such animals are meant not to be exported as it is a cull / meat / reduction / conservation hunt and no trophy hunt. But that is easy to check with them. Kowas is a reputable operation and if you might have any queries with hunting rights, contact them!
    Clients from the UK can import trophies hunted legally!
    By doing a reduction hunt first, you will gain valuable experience before you start shoot at more expensive trophy animals.
    Aim true and shoot straight!
     
  16. AfricaHunting.com

    AfricaHunting.com FOUNDER AH Ambassador

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    Cull or Management Hunts in Namibia

    Here below is some insight on the Cull or Management Hunts in Namibia that I received from Rainer Ling, former NAPHA DC (Disciplinary Committee) Chairman. I wish to thank Rainer for taking the time to shed some light on this matter and for letting me to publish his correspondence to me on AH.


    Dear AH-forum readers,

    Please find a few lines and thoughts to put the issue of the management hunts in Namibia in perspective.

    This grey zone or rather uncertainty with potential hunting clients is not conducive to create trust-nothing is worse in an industry than uncertainty!

    The answer that Almut from the NAPHA office provided to the AH-forum somewhere in last year is still valid: NAPHA is not the governmental institution, therefore she does neither have the capacity nor the authority, to provide the forum with a final, satisfactory answer about what the legal situation is. She tried to facilitate such a final answer by repeatedly copying our MET to supply the forum with the factual regulation. Therefore I want to assist Almut that this "unanswered" issue is not her fault at all.

    Let me give you some back ground:
    As you know we do have a whole series of different game utilization methods, each subject to their own required utilization permits- biltong permit ( 12 small game or three big game or a combination thereof )- shoot & sell, catch & keep and sell of game- big cat permits-night culling permits- trophy hunting permits .

    In practice it occurred that farm owners/lessees in Namibia could apply for biltong hunting permits and hunt meat with anyone, mainly South African meat hunters but this permit would not exclude any other foreign hunters. In the beginning the SA hunters even exported some of their trophies on such a biltong permit. When this loop hole was closed, the unregistered farmer, could still legally guide foreign hunters with a biltong permit and by means of the gift letter the hunters were even in the position to export these trophies. This action threatened the organized trophy hunting sector.

    On a NAPHA AGM some years ago, a resolution was adopted by majority vote, after intensive debate whether management hunts were in competition with trophy hunts or not, to initialize a further permit category with the name of Management hunt permit. The reasoning was that the ever increasing wild life numbers necessitate other utilization methods than only trophy hunting. The proceeds from the harvested game on a management hunt would be much higher than if the farmer himself would shoot this game and deliver the meat to a butcher. However two criteria were the bottom line: No trophies derived from such a MM-hunt could be exported and that the guide had to be a fully registered hunting professional with MET ( to maintain a satisfactory professional service level and to meet/honor the legal requirements of liability insurances, first aid certificate etc.). Another argument was that such a MM-hunt permit would provide the GRN with additional permit fee income and that this type of utilization would then be put on a organized /controlled level rather than to be a grey zone.

    This request landed on the desk of MET and NAPHA obtained the answer that this issue would be integrated in the new Namibian Wildlife Bill. The official recommendation/ interim ruling made MET on the NAPHA AGM was that the registered hunting operators could use the shoot & sell permit for that purpose with the condition that the foreign hunters name had to be entered on that permit. This is the status quo as it is practiced right up to this moment- therefore the answer should be that yes, it is official to harvest more than 2 animals/species on a management hunt. The core business of NAPHA however is the trophy hunting sector, in this case the governmental regulations clearly stipulate that only two animals per specie may be hunted on a trophy hunting permit.

    MET inspects the game numbers on every farm, even in the game fenced areas, before they issue such a shoot & sell permit.
     
  17. fhm3006

    fhm3006 AH Enthusiast

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    That explains away any 'grey areas' for me - thanks Jerome!
     
  18. Kowas Hunting Safaris

    Kowas Hunting Safaris AH Veteran

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    We thank you for the update and to clarify this matter in PUBLIC.
     

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